Jony Ive Says Holding Onto Features When There's a 'Better Way' is 'Path That Leads to Failure'

[Tozovac]

1) There’s still a “healthy difference” between the MBA and MBP, and you’re still free to choose which works better for you. No idea what you’re complaining about.

2) Apple continues to offer older models as long as they sell. That’s different from introducing a new generation with multiple models that offer both the new features and old features.

3) You didn’t really answer my question of would you do thinner or thicker. Both was not a choice. Then Apple would have to design and manufacture two different form factors. That wasn’t an option.

4) I did answer your question, you just aren’t waiting long enough for the reply.
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Already answered, you are just too impatient.

Ha ha, thanks, I missed your response. I'm truly jealous of how easy it is for you to ponder leaving if Apple's offerings didn't meet your need. I still find Apple's offerings a little better than Windows and Android, just not nearly as good as they were before Jony Ive took over as Chief Minimalist, and I would lament the day if their war on usability ease and their love of minimalist fisher price-looking UI’s finally broke me to have to switch away. You should just realize tho: too many lemmings designers blindly follow Apple so whatever might cause you to leave Apple may morph into common space for most all computers/phones.

You're correct on 1) and 2) but my point is: Will that last? Will there be a gap in offerings and if so, for how long? I fear an eventual eradication of certain things that to me are a bridge too far against ease/fun of use.

Regarding your freeling that others and I are bitching and moaning, if you use a basic principle of good design and extend your hypothesis or concept out to the extreme (something I think Jony Ive does not do), what if no consumers complained? Should really think about that... I don’t think it’s a stretch to say you and a few others think we should take whatever Apple gives and remain quiet and happy, or quietly move on. Not sure that’d be good practice for consumers or companies in the long run.

I did answer your question by saying: I'd offer more options. Now I see where you misunderstood me. I didn't mean offer a separate MPro with more ports & magsafe (tho that'd be nice) now. I meant in the future, including iPhones. I want a home button for good reasons. I want a headphone jack because I don't want to carry a dongle for the frequent times I need to charge & listen, plus I have numerous headphones at work, home, car, garage, and don't want to have to buy more wireless headphones. Just ridiculous. MBA has USB 3.0s, magsafe, and headphone jacks but I fear those things that are important to many including myself will slowly fade...
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Lithium is a very expensive material, the more efficient apple’s products can be, the less battery they can use, the lower the cost to them is. Aluminium is quite pricy too, the less they can use of that, the lower their costs will be. It’s all about margins. A thinner MBP will have a lower bill of (raw) materials

Boy I'd really hope Apple isn't letting margin improvement via less material pave the way as a cause for reduced ease of use. Perhaps I could personally see Jony using it as additional justification for his minimalist whims, but removing too much just for the sake of less material sure could turn off many and undo all the margin improvement. I still think AAPL is on a dangerous path of running out of useful things to minimize in favor of feeding Jony's minimalist cravings, soon turning off more and more consumers who don't want a $1500 minimalism design contest winner that's as fun to consume as pizza w/o cheese.

 

[Abazigal]

Let me ask you and @Abazigal -- Are you saying there's never a point of too much for you? That you have and will happily accept whatever Apple puts out from here out?

There are plenty of Apple products which I don’t feel suit me. I haven’t bought a new MacBook to replace my 2012 MBA for that reason. I just don’t buy them. But I don’t blame Apple for releasing a product which doesn’t suit my needs. I simply buy what I like and don’t buy what doesn’t catch my fancy.

In the same vein, I don’t expect Apple to cater to my needs forever. There will come a time when their design direction no longer matches what I look for and when that fateful day comes, I guess is when I pack up and start shopping for alternatives.

To me, it has always been inevitable. Times change, Apple will change in keeping with these times, and that’s just the way she goes.

 

[Tozovac]

I'm admiring (jealous of) your ease & flexibility & willingness to adapt by moving on! At least you answered me fair & square. As someone who disikes android's material design interface much more than the current iOS, and as someone who hugely prefers the apple OSX experience over Windows still, even with OSX straying too far into flat-design fisher-price appearance, I dread the day I'd have to move back to PC or to Android.

Just because change is inevitable doesn't mean all change should be accepted flatly, or can't be change for the worse.

 

[thekeyring]

The headphone jack removal is fascinating because it seems to be the most extreme thing Apple had removed, and caused a huge reaction, even from people who understood / agreed with Apple's decision to remove Flash, optical drives, etc. Yet within a year we're seeing other flagship phones with no headphone jack and it's a simply accepted.

All that heat, then it died down faster than anything else.

 

[Abazigal]

The headphone jack removal is fascinating because it seems to be the most extreme thing Apple had removed, and caused a huge reaction, even from people who understood / agreed with Apple's decision to remove Flash, optical drives, etc. Yet within a year we're seeing other flagship phones with no headphone jack and it's a simply accepted.

All that heat, then it died down faster than anything else.

The thing here is that when Apple removed flash and the optical drive, these moves too were met with huge criticism at the time. It's only now in hindsight that we see the long-term ramifications of such moves, and they have generally been for the better, because technology has more or less caught on, allowing us to work around these issues. For example, cloud storage and streaming services have proven to be more convenient and accessible than physical storage media for many.

The thing is - when one door closes, another opens. HTML5 may never have gotten the break it needed had Apple not blocked flash. The desire to remove ports could have driven the adoption of cloud storage. Sometimes, the line between cause and effect gets blurred a lot.

The problem is that you are essentially asking people to give up an immediate benefit today in exchange for some promised future benefit which may or may not materialise. For all we know, maybe the world never sees mass adoption of USB-C and we are stuck using dongles. Maybe bluetooth never gets better and we are stuck with headphone adaptors and inferior sound quality.

For me, my general philosophy when it comes to Apple products is not to swim against the tide, so to say.

 

[Tozovac]

The headphone jack removal is fascinating because it seems to be the most extreme thing Apple had removed, and caused a huge reaction, even from people who understood / agreed with Apple's decision to remove Flash, optical drives, etc. Yet within a year we're seeing other flagship phones with no headphone jack and it's a simply accepted.

All that heat, then it died down faster than anything else.

Comparing a headphone port to optical drives isn't as good a comparison as many think it is.

Why did the negative reaction towards the removing of optical drives die down, do you think? Was it from simple acceptance and moving on, or could it have been from: A realization that cd-roms/dvd discs are used only at home (or office) the vast majority of times, and not overly often also? And because the much-awaited move towards app/downloads for macbook apps was finally arriving, where it's quite a nice gain for manufacturer and consumer alike to no longer have a large cardboard box for a small disc used often only once? Also removing it did not result in any decreased convenience of charging the macbook while doing other things. In fact, it resulted in a fairly substantial clearing of available real-estate on the macbook that could have been used for more ports that people use often and often benefit from having several to be able to use at once which adds flexibility & convenience for the user, not reduces & takes away.

Looking back, the optical disk removal had a lot going for it with little sacrifice on the customer's ease-of-use. Removing headphone jacks (and flexibility of macbook ports) removes quite a bit of ease-of-use for those of us who have standard headphones all over the place in our personal/work lives and who crazily need to often be charging while using the jack. Was it impossible for such a design powerhouse to create or source a waterproof headphone jack?

Try it for yourself. Make lists of the the pros and cons, the advantages and disadvantages, the gains and trade-offs of removing optical drives from MacBooks. Then do the same for headphone jacks on iPhones. Then for MagSafe. Then for iOS 7 and its UI versus that ofthe prior iOS 6 UI. Do it for any radical thing Apple does nowadays as Jony keeps looking for things to change that’s getting increasingly dangerously close to change for the sake of change. Be honest to yourself if you try it, and look at it from the mindset of a user, not a marketing exec. Maybe you’ll be surprised.

Look at the targeted ad seen when viewing this didcussion. I’ve had to buy something like this to lug around and do have many others I bet. How is this “good design?”



Apple/Jony Ive's unhinged minimalist design contest is slowly ruining the fun/ease of use aspect of their products, and unfortunately, I'm sure they're far from done. What will be removed next...

 

[Tozovac]

The headphone jack removal is fascinating because it seems to be the most extreme thing Apple had removed, and caused a huge reaction, even from people who understood / agreed with Apple's decision to remove Flash, optical drives, etc. Yet within a year we're seeing other flagship phones with no headphone jack and it's a simply accepted.

All that heat, then it died down faster than anything else.

Looks like it has that functionality for you. One thing I like the most is that can compress the quiet areas as well as provide better speed modulation options than the Apple app. Like I said, third-party developers are killing it over the apples geniuses, way too often. Just wish a third-party developer was allowed to provide iOS skins, to add back buttons and other UI elements that Apple hates so badly currently.

 

[trifid]

View attachment 740655
Looks like it has that functionality for you. One thing I like the most is that can compress the quiet areas as well as provide better speed modulation options than the Apple app. Like I said, third-party developers are killing it over the apples geniuses, way too often. Just wish a third-party developer was allowed to provide iOS skins, to add back buttons and other UI elements that Apple hates so badly currently.

Coincidentally I ditched Apple's podcast app and switched to overcast not too long ago as my main app due to the bad software design. Also ditched iTunes for Spotify. There is a trend of neglect and bad design growing at Apple unfortunately.

 

[Tozovac]

Coincidentally I ditched Apple's podcast app and switched to overcast not too long ago as my main app due to the bad software design. Also ditched iTunes for Spotify. There is a trend of neglect and bad design growing at Apple unfortunately.

I stopped using Apple’s abomination of a music app after iOS 7 and switched to Audyssey Music Player and never looked back.

Buttons that look like buttons (so you don’t have to stop and think as much, closer to the “just works vibe” of 4+ years ago), the ability to sync podcasts from iTunes, and a simple, basic interface for people who actually want to play music they own. None of the Apple Music or stream BS to confuse things up. Only reason I don’t use it for a podcast is because I like the Overcast app a lot.

Screenshots below give the basic idea, I have all the music removed from my iPhone right now as I transition over to a new one, where only a few purchased songs remain, but gives you a good idea. It’s not perfect but it’s 1000 times better than Apple’s music app.

Check it out! Controls that look like controls you can use, and not for information only!







Check it out! A button up top that looks like a button, no 1.5 second pause each time you need to figure how to do things in iOS 7 to 11’s buttonless world!

 

[dotnet]

Lithium is a very expensive material, the more efficient apple’s products can be, the less battery they can use, the lower the cost to them is. Aluminium is quite pricy too, the less they can use of that, the lower their costs will be. It’s all about margins. A thinner MBP will have a lower bill of (raw) materials

Lithium is about $9 per kilogram, roughly the same as nickel. Aluminium is under $2 per kilogram.

 

[trifid]

I stopped using Apple’s abomination of a music app after iOS 7 and switched to Audyssey Music Player and never looked back.

Buttons that look like buttons (so you don’t have to stop and think as much, closer to the “just works vibe” of 4+ years ago), the ability to sync podcasts from iTunes, and a simple, basic interface for people who actually want to play music they own. None of the Apple Music or stream BS to confuse things up. Only reason I don’t use it for a podcast is because I like the Overcast app a lot.

Screenshots below give the basic idea, I have all the music removed from my iPhone right now as I transition over to a new one, where only a few purchased songs remain, but gives you a good idea. It’s not perfect but it’s 1000 times better than Apple’s music app.

Check it out! Controls that look like controls you can use, and not for information only!

View attachment 740669

View attachment 740666

View attachment 740667

Check it out! A button up top that looks like a button, no 1.5 second pause each time you need to figure how to do things in iOS 7 to 11’s buttonless world!

View attachment 740668

Completely agreed on the button and interface issues. Apple tries to re-invent the wheel so hard that they end up with some of the worst UI in history.

 

[Abazigal]

I stopped using Apple’s abomination of a music app after iOS 7 and switched to Audyssey Music Player and never looked back.

Buttons that look like buttons (so you don’t have to stop and think as much, closer to the “just works vibe” of 4+ years ago), the ability to sync podcasts from iTunes, and a simple, basic interface for people who actually want to play music they own. None of the Apple Music or stream BS to confuse things up. Only reason I don’t use it for a podcast is because I like the Overcast app a lot.

Screenshots below give the basic idea, I have all the music removed from my iPhone right now as I transition over to a new one, where only a few purchased songs remain, but gives you a good idea. It’s not perfect but it’s 1000 times better than Apple’s music app.

Check it out! Controls that look like controls you can use, and not for information only!

View attachment 740669

View attachment 740666

View attachment 740667

Check it out! A button up top that looks like a button, no 1.5 second pause each time you need to figure how to do things in iOS 7 to 11’s buttonless world!

View attachment 740668

To each their own, I guess. Maybe the UI is more functional for you, that after getting used to the new iOS 7 design language, I am not sure I can go back to such a dated design ever again.

 

[Tozovac]

To each their own, I guess. Maybe the UI is more functional for you, that after getting used to the new iOS 7 design language, I am not sure I can go back to such a dated design ever again.

Nobody can ever fault you for liking a certain look, but do you also feel the iOS 7 design language is a more intuitive, easier to use design then what I showed?

 

[Abazigal]

Nobody can ever fault you for liking a certain look, but do you also feel the iOS 7 design language is a more intuitive, easier to use design then what I showed?

Honestly, no. I will concur that in the interest of a more simplified, streamlined look, Apple has taken to shoving buttons and options into menus, and it's not always readily apparent which option is located where. Will you believe that some of my friends weren't aware that you could force-touch the wifi box in control centre to expand it? She was trying to locate the airdrop sharing icon and simply couldn't find it. In fact, it never occured to her to force-touch any of the icons in control centre to access additional options.

I would say that iOS 7 is more pleasing to the eyes, and I guess I value a unified UI as much as ease of use.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Honestly, no. I will concur that in the interest of a more simplified, streamlined look, Apple has taken to shoving buttons and options into menus, and it's not always readily apparent which option is located where. Will you believe that some of my friends weren't aware that you could force-touch the wifi box in control centre to expand it? She was trying to locate the airdrop sharing icon and simply couldn't find it. In fact, it never occured to her to force-touch any of the icons in control centre to access additional options.

I would say that iOS 7 is more pleasing to the eyes, and I guess I value a unified UI as much as ease of use.

I really wish there were some indication in the UI that objects were 3D touchable. Major UI/UX fail.

Giving not even a hint of 3D touchability in the world means: 1) I somehow just have to know it’s there; 2) I have to try, even if it’s not (usually) there; and 3) remember whether it’s available (or not) the next time I’m there, which could be days or weeks later.

This really should be fixed.

 

[thekeyring]

The thing here is that when Apple removed flash and the optical drive, these moves too were met with huge criticism at the time. It's only now in hindsight that we see the long-term ramifications of such moves, and they have generally been for the better, because technology has more or less caught on, allowing us to work around these issues. For example, cloud storage and streaming services have proven to be more convenient and accessible than physical storage media for many.

The thing is - when one door closes, another opens. HTML5 may never have gotten the break it needed had Apple not blocked flash. The desire to remove ports could have driven the adoption of cloud storage. Sometimes, the line between cause and effect gets blurred a lot.

The problem is that you are essentially asking people to give up an immediate benefit today in exchange for some promised future benefit which may or may not materialise. For all we know, maybe the world never sees mass adoption of USB-C and we are stuck using dongles. Maybe bluetooth never gets better and we are stuck with headphone adaptors and inferior sound quality.

For me, my general philosophy when it comes to Apple products is not to swim against the tide, so to say.

Comparing a headphone port to optical drives isn't as good a comparison as many think it is.

Why did the negative reaction towards the removing of optical drives die down, do you think? Was it from simple acceptance and moving on, or could it have been from: A realization that cd-roms/dvd discs are used only at home (or office) the vast majority of times, and not overly often also? And because the much-awaited move towards app/downloads for macbook apps was finally arriving, where it's quite a nice gain for manufacturer and consumer alike to no longer have a large cardboard box for a small disc used often only once? Also removing it did not result in any decreased convenience of charging the macbook while doing other things. In fact, it resulted in a fairly substantial clearing of available real-estate on the macbook that could have been used for more ports that people use often and often benefit from having several to be able to use at once which adds flexibility & convenience for the user, not reduces & takes away.

Looking back, the optical disk removal had a lot going for it with little sacrifice on the customer's ease-of-use. Removing headphone jacks (and flexibility of macbook ports) removes quite a bit of ease-of-use for those of us who have standard headphones all over the place in our personal/work lives and who crazily need to often be charging while using the jack. Was it impossible for such a design powerhouse to create or source a waterproof headphone jack?

Try it for yourself. Make lists of the the pros and cons, the advantages and disadvantages, the gains and trade-offs of removing optical drives from MacBooks. Then do the same for headphone jacks on iPhones. Then for MagSafe. Then for iOS 7 and its UI versus that ofthe prior iOS 6 UI. Do it for any radical thing Apple does nowadays as Jony keeps looking for things to change that’s getting increasingly dangerously close to change for the sake of change. Be honest to yourself if you try it, and look at it from the mindset of a user, not a marketing exec. Maybe you’ll be surprised.

Look at the targeted ad seen when viewing this didcussion. I’ve had to buy something like this to lug around and do have many others I bet. How is this “good design?”

View attachment 740567

Apple/Jony Ive's unhinged minimalist design contest is slowly ruining the fun/ease of use aspect of their products, and unfortunately, I'm sure they're far from done. What will be removed next...

My response applies to both of you:

I appreciate the time you took to reply with in depth answers, but I wasn't trying to debate whether the headphone jack removal was right or wrong. I was simply trying to observe that, considering it seemed more controversial than the other "removals" like the CD drive / Flash player, it has died down more quickly that those.

For instance, years after the MacBook Air made it's debut, some people still were still shocked at the Retina MacBook Pro. One year after iPhone 7 made it's debut, one of Apple's biggest competitors - Google - also removed the headphone jack from their flagship phone.

This could be my memory playing tricks on me, of course.