Judge in Epic vs. Apple Case Floats Potential Compromise

[daleroe]

It doesn't solve Apple's problem of maintaining security on the devices.
IF anyone can load any app, the people are going to get mislead to install scam/spam/malicious software unintentionally.
You need to understand that probably 60% of people don't even know how to go to a website. They enter "www.apple.com" into Google and blindly click on the first link that shows up.
I see this every day.
There's a 100% chance that side-loading apps will result in massive amounts of unintended software installed on iOS devices, doing unintended things.

Not trolling, I really like the app store. But I am also honestly wondering why — if this is not a problem for MACOS apps from anywhere being installed on MACOS — it would be a problem for iOS apps from anywhere being installed on iOS?

I have lots of apps on my Mac. Some of them are from the MacOS app store, many are from developers' websites.

What makes the platforms different, where app sources are concerned? Why is it more of a problem on iOS than on MacOS?

 

[iSRS]

Though for apps and games without alternative payment systems, he said it "would not be much of a solution."

So, in other words, for these apps, it wouldn’t solve a problem they don’t have. Got it.

 

[Rogifan]

If they allow apps to redirect to the web there’s going to be a lot of scams and phishing sites inserted into that link.

What is app review for then?

 

[frenchcamp49er]

What products at Target are free?

Not his point

 

[frenchcamp49er]

Though for apps and games without alternative payment systems, he said it "would not be much of a solution."

So, in other words, for these apps, it wouldn’t solve a problem they don’t have. Got it.

and the only apps I would pay for

 

[linrey]

I await with great anticipation Apple's explanation to the judge that what she's described is capitulation, not a compromise.

NOTE: the evidence presented each day at the trial is available here: http://tinyurl.com/epicvapple

 

[cdembek]

I am missing something.. Why does Epic need to have the game listed in the app store? If they don't want to pay the 30% fee, host the game a different way, let them build the system.

Also, let's say Epic gets around the 30% fee, do you really see them passing on the savings or just pocketing the extra 30%?

 

[Rogifan]

Not his point

He said free. Nothing is forcing Apple to have over 80% of the apps in the App Store be free.

 

[Analog Kid]

What products at Target are free?

The more relevant question is what products would be free if companies could bypass the stocking fees by accepting payment through another method.

My guess? All of them.

 

[linrey]

This has always been what this is all about - they want to be able to advertise in Apple's store.

It's about a whole lot more than just that.

 

[paulovsouza]

It’s obvious that Epic is in it for themselves. I don’t see small developers winning with this. Or the consumers. Apple did lower the % depending on how much the app developer makes, I think they can figure out other compromises, without dismantling the entire ecosystem customer paid into. Epic just needs to stop crying their crocodile tears, their fight is obviously with Sony/PlayStation.

 

[linrey]

Actually, Epic asked to have THEIR STORE INSIDE THE APP STORE! And that was only one of the requests.

 

[frenchcamp49er]

It’s obvious that Epic is in it for themselves. I don’t see small developers winning with this. Or the consumers. Apple did lower the % depending on how much the app developer makes, I think they can figure out other compromises, without dismantling the entire ecosystem customer paid into. Epic just needs to stop crying their crocodile tears, their fight is obviously with Sony/PlayStation.

EPIC Ceo admitted as much

 

[boss.king]

Epic winning is bad for small and medium sized developers.

Can you explain how?

 

[TheSynchronizer]

Not trolling, I really like the app store. But I am also honestly wondering why — if this is not a problem for MACOS apps from anywhere being installed on MACOS — it would be a problem for iOS apps from anywhere being installed on iOS?

I have lots of apps on my Mac. Some of them are from the MacOS app store, many are from developers' websites.

What makes the platforms different, where app sources are concerned? Why is it more of a problem on iOS than on MacOS?

on macOS its possible to get 'malware' by downloading bad apps, even if very unlikely. On iOS it essentially isn't possible to get malware.

The reason why macOS doesn't and never really has had a malware problem is because of its relatively small market share compared to Windows, so bad actors usually focus on developing windows malware. The small amount of malware that does exist for macOS is quickly spotted by Apple and taken care of by the built in security.

iOS has a much bigger market share than macOS. Millions of more devices. A lot more potential for bad actors to exploit if they had the chance to do so (and so a lot more enticing -> a lot more malware would be made).

 

[tongxinshe]

For the benefit of users and developers let us pray Epic wins.

If Epic wins, all of the apps will soon be free, letting Apple to do all of the distribution / maintenance heavy-lifting without charge, with all sorts of in-app-purchase methods to “unlock” the real functionality. Then, Apple will be forced to introduce a list of complex commission rule to compensate for its App Store maintenance cost (and profit), causing all of the small developers, who currently “sell” their apps for free anyway, to eventually pay more.

 

[BWhaler]

I think Apple’s defense team is over complicating this. Getting lost in arguments such as, “what is a Game?”

It’s a store. Should a shopkeeper be forced to allow products to advertise on their shelves that the same product can be bought down the street for cheaper?

Obviously not.

 

[TheWatchfulOne]

Apple is not applying their rules equitably. The rule needs to apply across all apps: so for example the Best Buy and amazon apps shouldn’t be allowed to let you pay for your purchases using a credit card separately. It has to be charged through your Apple account so that Apple can take its 30% cut of the oatmeal and ink cartridges that you purchased.

In-app purchases are not allowed to be used to sell physical goods. Not last time I looked anyway.

 

[bookofxero]

Not trolling, I really like the app store. But I am also honestly wondering why — if this is not a problem for MACOS apps from anywhere being installed on MACOS — it would be a problem for iOS apps from anywhere being installed on iOS?

I have lots of apps on my Mac. Some of them are from the MacOS app store, many are from developers' websites.

What makes the platforms different, where app sources are concerned? Why is it more of a problem on iOS than on MacOS?

You and many others are thinking of too narrow a scope. When you have multiple payment systems, you have multiple organizations with multiple databases with your information with various degrees of security. Your app itself is probably fine, but what about whatever payment mechanism they use? What are their privacy policies? Are they storing your CC info unencrypted? Selling your data, purchase history, etc?
There is already a major fleeceware issue with iOS - imagine how much worse it could be with every app able to use whatever payment processor they want, no matter how shady.

 

[4nNtt]

I’m fine with the 15/30 split and require IAP for games, but some of the other rules bother me.

Apple shouldn’t take a cut of digital reader content (books, music, movies, audio books, etc.). They shouldn’t take a cut of streaming video or music. All of these are much closer to physical goods (or renting physical goods). Apple competes with selling this content which feels like an antitrust issue. This content normally uses an agency model or other licensing that doesn’t have the margins to pay 15 or 30%. It is common for books to take 85% of the retail price. Once Apple takes a 30% cut, it leaves a 15% loss. None of Apple’s competitors (except Google who copied Apple) charge for any of these areas. The rules make a compromise where they sided with poor user experience to improve Apple profits.

I think games should be allowed in Apps like Facebook, Houseparty, zoom, or game collections as long as they are free or use IAP and have same content rating or can programmatically adjust to systems content rating. There are too many cases where this makes sense. In fact there are some game collections (Jackbox for example) in a single app on the store that have managed to avoid getting flagged by app reviewers.

I think Xbox game streaming should be allowed to run Netflix-style. I’m could probably be convinced that revenue sharing through a special deal is ok in this case since it competes to some extent with iOS native games where Apple would get a cut. I think progressive web apps should continue to not be hobbled so that Microsoft could have some leverage to leave the store while offering their users an alternative.

I have some other concerns with the store that are unrelated to rules and fees–

Apple needs an easy way for users to flag scam apps. Apple App reviewers are never going to catch all scams. Especially since some of them may change after they go through review.

Discoverability of try-before-you-buy apps and games is awful. They should be listed under paid apps/games with their price clearly shown. It should also be possible to sort by completely free, ad supported, and freemium.

 

[Mcckoe]

At the end of the day, Epic signed a contract to use apple’s store. They broke that contract, and apple took actions listed under the articles of that contract. From a legal standpoint this case is very cut and dry. The bigger questions is what Epic is really asking the courts to do, because they don’t have any legal standing to ask apple to make changes; where as, epic has already broken the contract.

 

[TheWatchfulOne]

Imagine being Target and prohibiting your customers from visiting any other store.

There's no such thing as a store that prohibits customers from visiting other stores.

 

[grahamwright1]

Not trolling, I really like the app store. But I am also honestly wondering why — if this is not a problem for MACOS apps from anywhere being installed on MACOS — it would be a problem for iOS apps from anywhere being installed on iOS?

I have lots of apps on my Mac. Some of them are from the MacOS app store, many are from developers' websites.

What makes the platforms different, where app sources are concerned? Why is it more of a problem on iOS than on MacOS?

There's a fairly small number of people using MacOS, and they have the ability to install app's from either Apple's curated App Store, or directly from third party vendors. This model works fairly well for Windows and MacOS users using a desktop of laptop. In my circle of friends and extended family there are 3 or 4 people with Mac desktops or laptops.

There are MANY more people using iOS devices, and in my circle of friends and extended family there are around 20 iOS devices. I am very confident that many of the friends and extended family would be easily tricked into clicking on links to download and install malicious content if they were allowed to directly install app's outside the Apple walled garden. For many people this walled garden is what ensures they remain protected from the scummy app's and content pushed around social media sites, ensuring they feel comfortable and secure doing their online banking over these devices.

The folks that are pushing to drop Apple's control over this environment are being a bit selfish, as they want the freedom and ability to load whatever content they want on their iOS devices, but it's the current model of control that's facilitated the growth of the iPhone's and what helps maintain the comfort level many people have in using it.

I hope that Apple are not put into the position where they have to loosen or remove these controls, as it's one of the main factors in their success. For the folks that don't care and just want full control then you have a number of very nice Android devices to purchase and use - everyone other than Epic will be happy....

 

[beken911]

If Epic wins and forces the iPhone to run any and every app store, iPhones will be instantly flooded with thousands of different viruses and developers will lose so much money to piracy that many are forced to shut down.

I don't this issue in Mac App Store. 😂

 

[Theo Moon]

1) Roblox says you must go to their website to spend $99.99 (on a single robux transaction). So I don’t see why epic can’t just do that too.

2) epic mac App Store is a totaled super bloated horrible messy dumpster trash pile of dog feces. If they fail to produce good app stores, Apple customers pay with bad experiences that are likely not equivalent to other platforms.