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Why is none of this objective in determining guilty or not? I guess I'm wondering why Samsung is guilty in one country but not the other of the same accusations.
 
Do we agree Samsung copied Apple's Mac-mini concept and product design?

The concept looks slightly similar but the design is completely different. Again, just have to say I wasn't actually being serious with my post; just trying to boost the mood in this thread.
 
Do we agree Samsung copied Apple's Mac-mini concept and product design?

Do we agree that the Small Form Factor concept isn't Apple's to begin with ? Even if you want to argue that the Power Mac G4 Cube was theoretically the first one, on the PC side, it's actually the Shuttle SV24 that launched the trend of SFF, spawning the whole Mini/Nano/Pico ITX form factor motherboards and cases and the OEM flavors of such small PCs.

The Shuttle SV24 had the added benefit of being made of aluminum rather than polycarbonate and as such didn't have the bad habit of cracking like the G4 Cube had. ;)

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The concept looks slightly similar but the design is completely different. Again, just have to say I wasn't actually being serious with my post; just trying to boost the mood in this thread.

You don't do that by posting flamebait usually. It's also quite against the rules to do so (posting something incendiary to incite others to post) not to mention quite contrary to netiquette.
 
If courts decide that Samsung infringes it means that Samsung didn't innovate and they copied.

If courts decide that Samsung doesn't infringe it means that Samsung innovate and they didn't copied, no?

If the courts reverse the decision then many will say 'the justice system is SO unfair".

Which I think Apple might have killed themselves by adding the Galaxy Note II and GSIII to the infringement case.
 
pushback towards apple

accept for diehard fanboys there seems to be plenty of backlash towards apple by consumers. They are coming off as bullies to many of us. lisa, imac, ipod touch, ipod shuffle.
 
accept for diehard fanboys there seems to be plenty of backlash towards apple by consumers. They are coming off as bullies to many of us. lisa, imac, ipod touch, ipod shuffle.

What's that random assortment of semi-related names supposed to mean? BTW, most consumers don't even know about this, and certainly aren't going to stop buying Apple products because of this. It's only us nerds and semi-nerds that care.

jW
 
Wasn't Samsung involved in jury selection? Would be hard to appeal on jury incompetence when they helped select the jury. But I'm sure Apple wishes he'd just ****.

There is no such thing as Judy incompetence and anyone claiming anything the jury forman said will lead to a succesful appeal is clueless.

This thread scares me in that so many people are completely clueless how our justice system works and more importantly what a jury does and how jury deliberation works.
 
Madness. Insanity.

Jurors should remain anonymous, and the media should be barred from interviewing them.

Anything else is contempt of court.

No wonder the US legal system is broken. You have even turned your court system into infotainment ...

Lots of problems with the us justice system but the jury system is not one of them. The nature of the system protects it.

As for stifling jurors from publically talking about decisions I have to assume you had a mental lapse when suggesting that.

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No it means that they took the advice of a patent holder thinking he was a patent expert - something this guy clearly isn't. In other words they were dumb and stupid. He should not have been allowed on the jury. The judge should have dismissed him at the very start of the selection process.

He took control and swayed the others with his own bias. They didn't give the 700 questions adequate thought, let alone pay attention to what the judge was telling them.

He needs to shut up, in fact all of the jurors should have kept their mouths shut, but I guess everyone wants 2 minutes of fame.

He needs to hope that his patent hasn't been used by any company with a connection to Apple. Otherwise he will be in a whole world of hurt.



Everything you said is nonsense.
 
I am summerizing. Here is the link to the instructions.
http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/ApplevSamsung-1903.pdf

The relavant text:

So they did not take it into account, the judge did not want them to take it into account and the guy didn't remember taking it into account and you are crying foul.

If they did what the judge requested then the rest is irrelevant. By the way juries have massive amounts of leeway. Willfulness is going to play a process in anyone's internal debate regardless of claims or instructions.
 
And so what? If the sentence gets overturned on appeal (which is perfecty possible), then all 9 of them ultimately voted wrong.



When it can take months for experts to evaluate even a single patent's validity? A bit, maybe, but a bit is not enough.



The jury system is well known to have huge drawbacks, especially in these kind of cases. In my opinion it's simply pointless to try and get a jury educated enough to decide these matters, also because many will simply decide based on emotions instead of rational thinking, or follow what the few influential jurors push.



Lol cases are not overturned for juries voting wrong.
 
You miss the point. They decided the prior art of one of the patent was not relevant because it did not run on the same processor of Apple's patent. This is obviously not a good reason to ignore prior art and the jury was clearly instructed about that.

It could still be that the prior art proposed does not invalidate Apple's patent in question, but the jury decided this using a completely incorrect rationale.

Lol you don't actually have any idea how the nine jurors reached their collective decision. It is much more likely a juror is misspeaking after the fact and without the assistance of the actual documents and other jurors.

It is funny to me that people and even worse lawyers think jury deliberations are somehow subjected to extreme scrutiny when it comes to an appeal.

There is no transcript of the jury deliberations, and it is that way for a reason.

People and lawyers are making all kinds of baseless wild arse assumptions.

By the way a juror has no responsibility as far as I know to share an accurate account of deliberations unless they choose to, whether it be intentional or not.

Since all the wannabe experts want to make hay about the not being used on the same processor I will say it is likely just a technically unsavy answer and provides no evidence they did not judge prior art properly.

The jury holds no responsibility to share with Internet forum or law sites how or why they decided that the prior art was not valid. That is not how the jury system works. If the foreman chooses to say they decided it based on the phases of moon it does not make it true or relevant.

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I hope you know 3 weeks of arguing and 3 days of deliberations are two differnet things ENTIRELY.

Remeber the OJ trial? One tiny glove changed everything for "Juice".

It is the DUTY of the jury to analyze EVERYTHING to the best of their ability (not because some foreman said something).

Being the 'most informed' means nothing if you ignore the rules you were given

So....

They are given instructions not rules

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Then the jury, or more likely your assumption of what the jury thought they were there for is wrong.



Wrong again...

They were tasked with determining infringement as well as determine patent validity.

One can be found to infringe, but if the patent is deemed invalid, the infringement becomes moot. Willful or not.

Prior art would not have been presented in the case if infringement was the only thing being determined.

The foreman applied the incorrect analysis when looking at prior art... plain and simple.
He managed to convince the rest of the jury that his premise was correct.

You mean Samsung failed to properly make their case on prior art. The burden was on samsungs lawyers to provide that evidence not the jury.
 
Lol cases are not overturned for juries voting wrong.

On the contrary, judges can (and do) overturn jury verdicts.

Here's a recent example:

RIM let off $147m hook as judge overturns Mformation ruling

Summary: A jury was wrong to find last month that the BlackBerry firm infringed on Mformation's remote device management patent, a California judge has established.

"A US judge has overturned a ruling last month, in which a jury said Research In Motion had infringed on a patent held by the device management firm Mformation.

"In July, a Californian jury said RIM should pay Mformation $147.2m (£94m) because BlackBerry Enterprise Server (BES) infringed on an Mformation patent covering remote device management from a server. The figure was based on a retrospective royalty of $8 per BES unit sold.

"However, RIM appealed, and on Thursday it said Judge James Ware had agreed with it, "concluding that the evidence did not support the jury's finding of patent infringement."

---

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 50 allows a court to disregard the jury's verdict and either order a new trial or direct the entry of a judgment contrary to the verdict of the jury if the other party is entitled to such a verdict as a matter of law.

This rule gives a court the power to set aside a jury verdict either immediately after it is returned or upon request within 28 days after the verdict is returned. This happens sometimes if a jury returns a verdict that is clearly against the weight of the evidence and should never have been returned. This might happen if a jury is prejudiced against one party or another or makes a mistake in its fact finding conclusions and brings back a verdict that is not supported by the evidence. The court has the authority to disregard the verdict and direct the entry of judgment for the other party notwithstanding the verdict.

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 59 allows the court to set aside the verdict and judgment and either order a new trial or alter or amend part of the verdict/judgment. The court has this authority if it believes such action is warranted even if none of the parties asks it to do so.

This rule permits alteration or amendment of a judgment as opposed to the grant of an entirely new trial. One example of an alteration or amendment of a verdict/judgment is that a court may reduce or increase the amount of damages a jury awards. This is called remititur and additur, repectively. If a jury awards damages in so excessive an amount that it is clear the the jury was prejudiced or mistaken, the court may lower the amount after the jury verdict is in.

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 60 also permits the court to relieve a party from the effects of a verdict/judgment under these circumstances:

(1) mistake, inadvertence, surprise, or excusable neglect;
(2) newly discovered evidence that, with reasonable diligence, could not have been discovered in time to move for a new trial under Rule 59(b);
(3) fraud (whether previously called intrinsic or extrinsic), misrepresentation, or misconduct by an opposing party;
(4) the judgment is void;
(5) the judgment has been satisfied, released, or discharged; it is based on an earlier judgment that has been reversed or vacated; or applying it prospectively is no longer equitable; or
(6) any other reason that justifies relief.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_a_civi...rn_a_jury_verdict_for_defendant#ixzz25K86011n
 
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You mean Samsung failed to properly make their case on prior art. The burden was on samsungs lawyers to provide that evidence not the jury.

Of course they did, Judge Grewal prevented a lot of their prior art evidence from being allowed. So much so, it even lead to a media leak of said evidence.

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They given instructions not rules

What makes that distinction exactly ? Any legal definitions you'd like to share with us ?
 
You have to understand. Marksman is the authority and FINAL word on everything when it comes to MacRumors. I don't say that as an insult. I say that because I sincerely believes he is. He believes he knows better and more than anyone else. And if you continue to be contrary - he'll put you on ignore.
 
round 1 - Apple. rounds 2 to 20 - who knows?

Lol cases are not overturned for juries voting wrong.

But how about for juries not following the instructions?

This verdict is just the first skirmish in what will be a long-running soap opera.

...and the final outcome could be quite the opposite of this first, apparently flawed, verdict.
 
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But how about for juries not following the instructions?

This verdict is just the first skirmish in what will be a long-running soap opera.

...and the final outcome could be quite the opposite of this first, apparently flawed, verdict.

I'd argue that Apple's goal is to keep things off the market as long as possible. If that is what happens, it's clearly in their favor regardless of final verdicts. None of the bonds have been terribly substantial.
 
I'd argue that Apple's goal is to keep things off the market as long as possible. If that is what happens, it's clearly in their favor regardless of final verdicts. None of the bonds have been terribly substantial.

But everything is still on the market, and the phones that could be banned are mostly older phones - so even if the judge ignores the flawed verdict and bans the older phones, it won't have much effect on the competitive landscape.
 
But everything is still on the market, and the phones that could be banned are mostly older phones - so even if the judge ignores the flawed verdict and bans the older phones, it won't have much effect on the competitive landscape.

I was thinking more on previously requested injunctions. The goal seems to be one of making the market extremely hostile to competitors through potential liabilities. Even if they're granted a trash patent, it takes a lot of resources to get such a thing invalidated. Do you think Apple's goal was something different?
 
Sense of humour

My heart goes out to you zin, some people just don't have a sense of humour:confused:
Why can't someone try to lighten the mood, I spotted the joke straight away and can't believe people thought he was serious.

Just because you don't understand the concept of irony doesn't mean he's trying to incite a riot:eek::eek:
 
Lol you don't actually have any idea how the nine jurors reached their collective decision. It is much more likely a juror is misspeaking after the fact and without the assistance of the actual documents and other jurors.

Neither you do, so why you are so confident the jury's decision was correct? Unless you take it acritically because that's how the system works, or it happens to be a sentence you like and don't care about the rest.

It is funny to me that people and even worse lawyers think jury deliberations are somehow subjected to extreme scrutiny when it comes to an appeal.

Most professionals agree that the issue was too complicated to be decided so fast even by people deep into the matter. On top on that you add the declarations of the foreman which suggest indeed some corners have been cut to reach the decision... it's only logical that most come to the conclusion that the sentence might have weak points which could get it overturned on appeal. Or not, we'll see.

In any case I'd wait before "lol" ling.
 
Most professionals agree that the issue was too complicated to be decided so fast even by people deep into the matter.

So much so that the law has already been changed in the US to give the defendants a choice to have to face a jury for these types of case. Unfortunately for Samsung, the law goes into effect only on the 16th of September of this year.
 
So much so that the law has already been changed in the US to give the defendants a choice to have to face a jury for these types of case. Unfortunately for Samsung, the law goes into effect only on the 16th of September of this year.

I'm wandering how this will affect this patent war. Less media shows?
 
Do Apple-haters go to visit and post in Apple product forums simply because they like to spread hate, because they are jealous of the cool Apple products they don't (or can't) own, or because there's not one damn thing of interest going on in forums that deal with the products that they do own?

Or, maybe they come here just to see the latest innovativeness and awesomeness so they know what their lesser products will look like in a few months?

Mark
 
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