Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
IMO, this thread would benefit greatly if some of the posters spent a little time reading the first part of the jury instructions. In that section, there are fairly easily understood descriptions of how each type of IP protection (patents and trade tress) work and definitions of what constitutes infringement for each.

It would go along ways to keeping the discussion OT. There might even be a reasonable discussion about the differences in American law vs other countries, instead of generalization.:rolleyes:

I'm glad our constitution was brought up in several places. I'd bet a lot of people in this country aren't even aware that patent and copyright law was baked in originally.
 
IMO, this thread would benefit greatly if some of the posters spent a little time reading the first part of the jury instructions. In that section, there are fairly easily understood descriptions of how each type of IP protection (patents and trade tress) work and definitions of what constitutes infringement for each.

It would go along ways to keeping the discussion OT. There might even be a reasonable discussion about the differences in American law vs other countries, instead of generalization.:rolleyes:

I'm glad our constitution was brought up in several places. I'd bet a lot of people in this country aren't even aware that patent and copyright law was baked in originally.

MY MIND IS MADE UP! How dare you point me to facts!
 
Very interesting thanks. I have actually seen the declaration of independence when I went to Washington. I did try to steal it and reclaim the US for old England but several big guys with guns wouldn't let me. Spoil sports. :D

I was reading the 27 amendments. It's interesting that nothing has been proposed and ratified in the past 40 years. Even the Equal Rights Amendment didn't get ratified. I can see that it's not easy to amend the constitution.

Well, one thing that everyone on both sides will completely disregard, particularly when speaking for public consumption, is that politically the country is split right down the middle. There's about 40% that is rock solid Republican, 40% that is rock solid Democrat, and 20% that sort of wavers between the two and the 20% usually winds up split near the middle.

Sometimes a party will screw up so badly that some of the rock solid will flip for an election or two - but they haven't changed their positions, just really dislike the people.

This is No Fun for those who really, really want to make core differences in politics, so they Know that in reality everyone really thinks like they do but just voting the other way because they haven't been shown the way, and when they win elections by heavens they have a MANDATE to rework everything in their image. Sometimes, they have a good idea, the other side will wind up adopting it into their political philosophy somehow and the center shifts a little, but usually, the next election is about those terrible people who abused their power and overreached.

If you look at Politics in America as a noble calling to make the world better, it'll break your heart. If you look at it as wrestling but with different suits, it can be fun.
 
So your S2 doesn't use the same touch gestures as the iPhone, doesn't do the "bounce back" after over scrolling?

And Google was wrong when they warned Samsung their phones were looking too much like the iPhone?

Honestly I couldn't care less about the "bounce back" feature. I never even noticed it until you mentioned it. I use both phones on a daily basis and I don't see the suggested copying. It's like saying Ford copied GM coz they both have a steering wheel. Yes some things look similar but sometimes there is no other way of doing things. My flat screen TV looks and works pretty much like all the other flat screen TVs out there. So what happens now. Samsung smartphones are banned in the US. Then what? Apple sues the other Android makers so that we end up with no competition. It's just Apple and Microsoft again. I'm sure Apple would love that but I think that would be a disaster for consumers in the US.
 
New Here

Hey guys im new here (mostly lurk) But I found a series particularly interesting that another poster in a different rumor posted. Some of you guys should take a look at it. It's called "Everything Is a Remix". Here is part 3 about Apple and Xerox..http://vimeo.com/25380454. The whole series goes on about how Innovation and creativity is possible through copying, transforming and combining works of other people. Its interesting to say the least.
 
Well, one thing that everyone on both sides will completely disregard, particularly when speaking for public consumption, is that politically the country is split right down the middle. There's about 40% that is rock solid Republican, 40% that is rock solid Democrat, and 20% that sort of wavers between the two and the 20% usually winds up split near the middle.

Sometimes a party will screw up so badly that some of the rock solid will flip for an election or two - but they haven't changed their positions, just really dislike the people.

This is No Fun for those who really, really want to make core differences in politics, so they Know that in reality everyone really thinks like they do but just voting the other way because they haven't been shown the way, and when they win elections by heavens they have a MANDATE to rework everything in their image. Sometimes, they have a good idea, the other side will wind up adopting it into their political philosophy somehow and the center shifts a little, but usually, the next election is about those terrible people who abused their power and overreached.

If you look at Politics in America as a noble calling to make the world better, it'll break your heart. If you look at it as wrestling but with different suits, it can be fun.

I was staggered when I read recently that the 2012 US elections are estimated to cost around $6bn. I just can't imagine that. I think in the last UK elections in 2010 all the political parties together spent about £30m. We have a national debate if the Queen costs too much and she's head of state lol. $6bn. What do they spend it on? And where does all that money come from? I have never given a penny to any political party, it only encourages them lol.
 
Apparently Coca-Cola should sue Pepsi for Sierra Mist because they decided they want a lemon-lime soda like Sprite.

Coke does sue companies with script logos that look like theirs. But the can for Sierra Mist doesn't look like the can for Sprite. Pepsi innovated and came up with a newer fresher looking design.
 
Honestly I couldn't care less about the "bounce back" feature. I never even noticed it until you mentioned it. I use both phones on a daily basis and I don't see the suggested copying. It's like saying Ford copied GM coz they both have a steering wheel. Yes some things look similar but sometimes there is no other way of doing things. My flat screen TV looks and works pretty much like all the other flat screen TVs out there. So what happens now. Samsung smartphones are banned in the US. Then what? Apple sues the other Android makers so that we end up with no competition. It's just Apple and Microsoft again. I'm sure Apple would love that but I think that would be a disaster for consumers in the US.


Most people wouldn't notice the bounce back feature unless it's pointed out, either (or until they use the iPhone for a while and then switch to a phone that doesn't have it). However, that makes it all the more inexplicable why the first Samsung phones would have it, and is strong circumstantial evidence of copying. Steve Jobs was well known for having such careful attention to detail to realize that a "bounce back" feature and similar animations make the digital appear more natural. For all we know it took weeks or even months of some programmer's time to get it "just right."

What happens now is that there will be a month of motions. Samsung will ask the judge to overturn the jury's verdict or at least reduce damages. Apple will ask the judge to increase damages, and will also petition for an injunction. Only 2 offending products are still for sale (the Nexus S and Galaxy SII), mostly as "free" devices on T-Mobile and Sprint, so the actual impact will be small. The Galaxy SIII and Tab 2 came out after the lawsuit was filed, and both had deliberate changes to attempt to work around the items in dispute. Apple will surely try to get an injunction against them, but that's unlikely (particularly for the Tab 2, since the jury ruled against Apple's iPad trade dress claims).

Realistically, Android isn't going anywhere. A lot of the patents can be worked around simply by removing features. Companies like HTC and Sony might simply do that to avoid lawsuits. Google has its own patent portfolio from Motorola Mobility, so they may look to fight back with some of them in order to try to force Apple into a cross-licensing agreement. But over the long run if this ruling holds up, we'll probably see Android and iOS diverging, at least as far as the UI is concerned.

I'm sure Microsoft will attempt to capitalize, and maybe Samsung, HTC, et al will give Windows Phone another look (though most except Nokia had pulled back since the launch). Samsung might pour more resources into Tizen (what MeeGo evolved into) and Bada (its own OS).
 
Hey guys im new here (mostly lurk) But I found a series particularly interesting that another poster in a different rumor posted. Some of you guys should take a look at it. It's called "Everything Is a Remix". Here is part 3 about Apple and Xerox..http://vimeo.com/25380454. The whole series goes on about how Innovation and creativity is possible through copying, transforming and combining works of other people. Its interesting to say the least.

It is, but I think it gives short shrift to the work Apple did to convert the concepts Xerox had into something workable and user friendly. For all he says about "things don't just appear in a flash of brilliance, he jumps past the double-click, the menu bar (and a lot of things never mentioned).

That's the problem with the "Microsoft just took what Apple took from Xerox" or "iPhone is just parts from before and Samsung did the same". Apple spent years honing the user interface work and as such created one user interface. If Microsoft had done the same, looked at the Star and then worked on "what would this need to become a really great experience", it would've taken longer and it probably wouldn't have had the same menu names, same shortcuts except control instead of command, etc.

Similarly, yes, the iPhone was built on work by others on phones, on touch, etc. If Samsung had built from those sources, they wouldn't have been able to rush a multitouch phone to market nearly as soon as the "oh ****" report that was entered into evidence of "where we're lacking" and while some solutions may have been the same, others would have been very different.
 
Legal Thriller

John Grisham should write a legal thriller on that. I've read almost all exciting books by him and it's the only way for me to comprehend the US legal system.
 
It is, but I think it gives short shrift to the work Apple did to convert the concepts Xerox had into something workable and user friendly. For all he says about "things don't just appear in a flash of brilliance, he jumps past the double-click, the menu bar (and a lot of things never mentioned).

That's the problem with the "Microsoft just took what Apple took from Xerox" or "iPhone is just parts from before and Samsung did the same". Apple spent years honing the user interface work and as such created one user interface. If Microsoft had done the same, looked at the Star and then worked on "what would this need to become a really great experience", it would've taken longer and it probably wouldn't have had the same menu names, same shortcuts except control instead of command, etc.

Similarly, yes, the iPhone was built on work by others on phones, on touch, etc. If Samsung had built from those sources, they wouldn't have been able to rush a multitouch phone to market nearly as soon as the "oh ****" report that was entered into evidence of "where we're lacking" and while some solutions may have been the same, others would have been very different.


http://vimeo.com/47322970 Jump to 5:20...
 
Patents and Copyrights

I think the jury made the right decision. Patents need to be defended, just as copyrights need to be defended when someone tries to pass off a written work as his/her own when it is not.
 
Inevitable

I think that this is the right judgment for this case. It's sort of crazy for two huge companies to be bickering in court about money and damages that neither truly needs.

However, I think that this patent case really resolves something from the distant past. I believe this is the case of Apple vs Microsoft, years removed. It's a case which asks, "Should Apple have to re-live the past, and watch yet another company streamline their innovations and out-distribute them using price."

I think that Samsung is simply the company with which it was easy to answer, "No."
 
I was staggered when I read recently that the 2012 US elections are estimated to cost around $6bn. I just can't imagine that. I think in the last UK elections in 2010 all the political parties together spent about £30m. We have a national debate if the Queen costs too much and she's head of state lol. $6bn. What do they spend it on? And where does all that money come from? I have never given a penny to any political party, it only encourages them lol.

That might be inflated a bit. At one time the Obama campaign claimed it would raise $1 billion, but it has quietly ratcheted that back. Figure $750 million by each campaign. The political parties can raise money separately, so figure another billion or so from that. So-called Super PACs can raise as much as they want, but media hand-wringing aside, their impact is also exaggerated since they can't campaign directly for a candidate (they effectively can only run attack ads). Add the costs of state elections, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's $4-5 billion, though. Remember, each of these campaigns hire staffs and consultants. The big spending is on advertising, however. The cable companies and ad agencies thrive on this spending.

Most of the money actually comes from individuals. There are individual limits on what a person can donate to a campaign (I think it's around $2500), though no limits on contributions to other organizations. Unions and corporations are other big sources, but not as much as the TV pundits on the right and left make it out to be.
 
Most people wouldn't notice the bounce back feature unless it's pointed out, either (or until they use the iPhone for a while and then switch to a phone that doesn't have it). However, that makes it all the more inexplicable why the first Samsung phones would have it, and is strong circumstantial evidence of copying. Steve Jobs was well known for having such careful attention to detail to realize that a "bounce back" feature and similar animations make the digital appear more natural. For all we know it took weeks or even months of some programmer's time to get it "just right."

It's not just a visual effect, it actually is there to solve problem related to reaching the last document and as a result scrolling "out of the screen".
 
I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time. My guess is it is buyer's remorse. Don't buy a substitute when you could have had the original.

I bought a Nexus One and used it for over a year. I must admit that Google Maps Navigation was nice, and I'm glad to see something similar finally coming to iOS (3rd party apps aren't the same since they aren't integrated with the other built-in apps). That said, the iPhone is clearly a nicer device overall.

Judging by the ferocity of their I find it weird that ever would have it in the first place. It sounds like they would've been repulsed upon seeing said device.

Honestly, I would get the international version if it worked on Verizon's network. I know that only the first stage bootloader is signature checked on Samsung's smartphones that use Hummingbird, meaning that the higher levels can be patched. Their Exynos devices do not have locked bootloaders so I assume their signature check situation is the same.
 
To innovate or to not innovate?

One thing really stands out to me with all the comments that this ruling will stifle innovation.

No one really says how it will prevent innovation. They just say that it will.

"It will stifle innovation because, because, because, because it just will, okay!"

If you think it will, then please show your working out. My personal view is that it will encourage innovation because you're going to have to differentiate your product from someone else's. This is going to be as true for Apple as it will be for Samsung, HTC, Rim, Nokia, Microsoft et all.
 
Most people wouldn't notice the bounce back feature unless it's pointed out, either (or until they use the iPhone for a while and then switch to a phone that doesn't have it). However, that makes it all the more inexplicable why the first Samsung phones would have it, and is strong circumstantial evidence of copying. Steve Jobs was well known for having such careful attention to detail to realize that a "bounce back" feature and similar animations make the digital appear more natural. For all we know it took weeks or even months of some programmer's time to get it "just right."

What happens now is that there will be a month of motions. Samsung will ask the judge to overturn the jury's verdict or at least reduce damages. Apple will ask the judge to increase damages, and will also petition for an injunction. Only 2 offending products are still for sale (the Nexus S and Galaxy SII), mostly as "free" devices on T-Mobile and Sprint, so the actual impact will be small. The Galaxy SIII and Tab 2 came out after the lawsuit was filed, and both had deliberate changes to attempt to work around the items in dispute. Apple will surely try to get an injunction against them, but that's unlikely (particularly for the Tab 2, since the jury ruled against Apple's iPad trade dress claims).

Realistically, Android isn't going anywhere. A lot of the patents can be worked around simply by removing features. Companies like HTC and Sony might simply do that to avoid lawsuits. Google has its own patent portfolio from Motorola Mobility, so they may look to fight back with some of them in order to try to force Apple into a cross-licensing agreement. But over the long run if this ruling holds up, we'll probably see Android and iOS diverging, at least as far as the UI is concerned.

I'm sure Microsoft will attempt to capitalize, and maybe Samsung, HTC, et al will give Windows Phone another look (though most except Nokia had pulled back since the launch). Samsung might pour more resources into Tizen (what MeeGo evolved into) and Bada (its own OS).

I can't see them all decamping to Windows Phone. I think the most likely scenario is that Apple and Google (or their proxy's) embark on a long and expensive series of protracted patent legal battles one after the other with each suing the other and each seeking to buy up as many patents as they can get their hands on.

I don't know how it works in the car industry but that seems a good model to me. Somebody invents air bags. A few years later all cars have it. Then somebody invents anti-lock braking and a few years later all cars have it. The inventor gets first mover advantage but eventually we all benefit from that invention.

It seems to me that Apple invented a great product in the original iPhone. But 5 years later rather than continue to innovate to stay ahead they seem intent on simply protecting that 5 year old technology and the patents it contains. If they followed the car example they would always stay one step ahead of the so called copyists by inventing new stuff with each new iteration of the iPhone.
 

I'll say the same thing there. Before iPhone, there were some tech demos here, there were some sorta kinda similar attempts at a feature there, there were some things that if you squint real hard you can say "Hey, maybe that was the inspiration for Apple." Then there was the iPhone.

There's an old cartoon, two scientists or engineers looking at a flowchart, and in the middle is a big blob with the label "And a miracle occurs". One of them says to the other, "I think you need to flesh that middle bit out a bit"

If your view of creation of the iPhone was "bits and pieces in the wild" leading to "and a miracle occurs" leading to "Apple introduces the iPhone", you really need to flesh that middle bit out a bit. It's not gather all the bits in a bucket, Steve Jobs says "Throw the switch!", Jon Ivy says "Yes, Master" and the lightning booms and there's an iPhone. There's a lot of long term, expensive work to go from the bits and pieces to a product. A lot of honing to decide "Yes, this is how people will expect it to work and this is how we make that happen". Apple spent many, many years, originally on a tablet and then switching to a phone to release it. This cost a lot of money. As the guy says at the start of part 3, if you have one guy pricing a product with manufacturing costs, development costs, and marketing costs, and another guy copies it so just has to do manufacturing and marketing costs - the second guy has a huge advantage. But he later throws all that out and all this IP stuff is just for the common good to put more stuff out there.

OK, let's talk common good. First, in a few years, all those patents will expire, and Google or Samsung can do whatever they want with them. That is, after all, how patents were to serve the common good - instead of trade secrets, people patent things, get exclusive use for a while, and then anyone gets it. But Google and Samsung want it NOW instead of waiting.

The next response could have been "Hey, you can do some cool things with these parts", go the the same bit bucket of parts as Apple went to, spent the years Apple did. There may be some that they come to the same conclusion that "this is the best way", but there's usually multiple approaches to take to things and Apple may not have always found the best way. So, Google and Samsung take the years to work with it and come up with something different, giving customers a real choice. But that would cost big bucks and take time, and Google and Samsung want it now.

So they copy it.

I am NOT a fan of the litigation. I really hope that Apple grabs this opportunity to create a standard deal along the lines of the deal they signed with microsoft - license the general gesture vocabulary and such at a reasonable price, mark a few things as iPhone's distinguishing characteristics like the bounce back, and a general agreement not to try to duplicate the look of the phones.

But the idea that there was nothing of value that Apple brought to the market in the iPhone, or that sudden spin on a dime the smartphone industry did to switch to multitouch phones with the same gestures and same general structure was completely coincidental to Apple's release is insane on the face of it. And if there is no benefit to Apple for spending the large sums and long development processes to create these breakthrough products - why do it?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.