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True. Even if Qualcommm eventually loses, they still wouldn't have to pay out a billion. They would essentially be at a wash with Apple. Apple would owe QC a billion in royalty payments, QC would owe Apple a billion from the judgement. A wash.

Yeah, Qualcomm isn't going to end up owing Apple money. Wherever the details land in the current district court cases (in particular the '108 case before Judge Curiel), or with a settlement, Apple will almost surely owe Qualcomm money. One of the issues is figuring out how much Apple rightfully owes Qualcomm. That's something the parties have heretofore not been able to agree on. But there's no dispute that Apple will need to pay Qualcomm something for the use of its IP.

Apple will most likely win on the $1 billion in withheld BCPA payments. But, as you suggest, that will be offset (and then some) by outstanding royalties which Apple will owe Qualcomm.
 
I do not know what the formalities are but Apple did stop paying royalties to Qualcomm back in 2017.
i didn’t deny that. I disputed the idea that it had anything to do with the rebate withholding. It didn’t. Qualcomm, itself, told the court that the reason it withheld the rebates was because Apple allegedly helped government agencies in investigating Qualcomm for anti-trust. And that this violated a contract.

Think about that: Qualcomm said to apple, essentially, “we will give you billions in rebates unless you cooperate with investigations into us.”

Sounds wholesome.
 
Yeah, really. Why did Apple even bother? It's not like Qualcomm is some patent troll. At least they make stuff and $31 mill for Apple is pocket change.
Several of the patents they sued with they purchased specifically to use against Apple and have nothing to do with their chips. So I’m not sure what that makes them.
 
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Yeah, Qualcomm isn't going to end up owing Apple money. Wherever the details land in the current district court cases (in particular the '108 case before Judge Curiel), or with a settlement, Apple will almost surely owe Qualcomm money. One of the issues is figuring out how much Apple rightfully owes Qualcomm. That's something the parties have heretofore not been able to agree on. But there's no dispute that Apple will need to pay Qualcomm something for the use of its IP.

Apple will most likely win on the $1 billion in withheld BCPA payments. But, as you suggest, that will be offset (and then some) by outstanding royalties which Apple will owe Qualcomm.

I disagree with you for once (maybe). A lot of those outstanding royalties “owed” by Apple (via Foxconn) may be foreclosed by patent exhaustion. My understanding is the total amount withheld by apple is around the same as the rebates (as of now). Some portion of the royalties withheld must relate to devices which use Qualcomm chips, in which case I don’t think apple will ever have to pay them. Of course, all this depends on quantities and percentages.
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Anybody can assemble a rectangle with rounded corners but very few can engineer the best baseband radios in the business.

True. Only apple can do the latter.
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Thanks for posting this so others can understand.

It's not $1B vs. $31M.

Apple owes Qualcomm $1B and vice versa due to the rebate arrangement. It's basically a wash.

The $31M is actual news.

Apple disputes that it owes Qualcomm $1B, so we will see.
 
Patents and copyrights are evil. The notion that the state can enforce this notion of someone "owning" an idea and prevent anyone else from using the same idea is ridiculous and evil. But it's even sadder that so many people have been hoodwinked into buying into this nonsensical, evil idea.

Copyrights, ownership of your own intellectual properly- its not evil. Its pretty fair in most cases. Take musicians for example. Someone writes a song in their bedroom. Whats to stop a Pharmaceutical company making a cover of the song and using it in a multi million dollar tv ad campaign and not pay anything to the guy who wrote it? Copyright.

Many individuals and companies are in the business of 'ideas'. Its only fair that they can make a living off them.

And also think of how much innovation would be stifled if big companies could take anyones ideas and make bank implementing them without compensation. Think of how start up's work in the tech industry.
 
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Apple was quite happy to sign a contract with them when it suited them, the contract stated the amount they pay would be based on the price of the product using there technology and Apple had no issues but today Apple is over charging it’s customers for iPhones and relies it will have to pay more in royalties but Apple is greedy it wants it all and that is wrong they signed a contract, perhaps lower the price of the iPhone oh can’t do that we are Apple we want as much as we can from you for a phone that just looks different but basically just the same you have now just a s on the end and that will cost you ££££ more.

Apple needs be punished hard
Great to see a full stop and paragraph break right at the end there. ;)
 
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Think about that: Qualcomm said to apple, essentially, “we will give you billions in rebates unless you cooperate with investigations into us.”

Sounds wholesome.
Must have been wholesome enough for Apple to agree to it for the entirety of their contract. I mean, they did take the rebates... willingly. There's no moral high ground in this situation.
 
1 billion dollar judgment for one side and 31 million dollar for the other side. I think I know which side I’d want to be on.

Qualcomm owes $1 billion in rebates but apple owes $1 billion in patent fees. From yesterdays MR story ....

"Reuters says that it is unlikely Qualcomm will make a new payment to Apple as Apple's contract factories have already withheldnearly $1 billion in payments to Qualcomm as a way for Apple to recoup its money."

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...yments-according-to-new-court-ruling.2173418/
 
Patents and copyrights are evil. The notion that the state can enforce this notion of someone "owning" an idea and prevent anyone else from using the same idea is ridiculous and evil. But it's even sadder that so many people have been hoodwinked into buying into this nonsensical, evil idea.
A patent is a protection on an implementation of an idea. So oled can be patentted but not the idea of a screen. Unfortunately our modern system sucks at properly awarding patents.
 
I disagree with you for once (maybe). A lot of those outstanding royalties “owed” by Apple (via Foxconn) may be foreclosed by patent exhaustion. My understanding is the total amount withheld by apple is around the same as the rebates (as of now). Some portion of the royalties withheld must relate to devices which use Qualcomm chips, in which case I don’t think apple will ever have to pay them. Of course, all this depends on quantities and percentages.

Yeah, it will depend on quantities and such. But I think it's highly unlikely that, by the time the broader situation is resolved, Apple won't owe Qualcomm more in royalties than Qualcomm owes it in BCPA payments - that is, unless Apple is somehow able to successfully argue that Qualcomm owes it, in effect, rebates for royalties it paid in the past (i.e. from 2012-ish through 2016) because Qualcomm behaved improperly in forcing Apple to pay higher royalties than it should have.

There are two issues with regard to royalty payments which Apple has (effectively) withheld from Qualcomm. It withheld payments to offset the $1 billion in BCPA payments which Qualcomm withheld. But then it stopped paying royalties altogether when the BCPA expired. So Apple hasn't - the best I can tell, based on various court filings - been paying royalties over the last 2+ years (in addition to having withheld some royalty payments from when the BCPA was still in effect).

During that time Apple would have used a lot of Intel modems for which patent exhaustion wouldn't be an issue. Intel hasn't been paying licensing fees to Qualcomm for the SEPs used in those modems because, as I'm sure you know, Qualcomm has long refused to license its SEPs to Intel. (Presumably that will be changing as Judge Koh has now told Qualcomm it has to.) Who knows how long it will take to settle these Qualcomm-Apple issues. There may be 4 or 5 years worth of unpaid royalties owed to Qualcomm. Even at 5% of modem cost, that could be a couple billion dollars worth of royalties owed to Qualcomm. And, again, that would be in addition to the royalty payments withheld from when the BCPA was still in effect.
 
Shocker, Apple is a patent troll. Hardly surprising :rolleyes:
I do believe people in here claim Qualcomm is a patent troll, despite the law in this case proving the opposite.

This doesn’t look good for Apple against Qualcomm, and several battery scandal investigations to publish their findings yet. And the anti competitive complaint made by Spotify in the EU, it’s not looking very good for Apple this year, but when you take on the big boys this is what you get.
 
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This looks easy. Apple just needs to pay the $31 million to end the patent battle and in return they will get $1 billion from the other lawsuit lol
 
Yeah, it will depend on quantities and such. But I think it's highly unlikely that, by the time the broader situation is resolved, Apple won't owe Qualcomm more in royalties than Qualcomm owes it in BCPA payments - that is, unless Apple is somehow able to successfully argue that Qualcomm owes it, in effect, rebates for royalties it paid in the past (i.e. from 2012-ish through 2016) because Qualcomm behaved improperly in forcing Apple to pay higher royalties than it should have.

There are two issues with regard to royalty payments which Apple has (effectively) withheld from Qualcomm. It withheld payments to offset the $1 billion in BCPA payments which Qualcomm withheld. But then it stopped paying royalties altogether when the BCPA expired. So Apple hasn't - the best I can tell, based on various court filings - been paying royalties over the last 2+ years (in addition to having withheld some royalty payments from when the BCPA was still in effect).

During that time Apple would have used a lot of Intel modems for which patent exhaustion wouldn't be an issue. Intel hasn't been paying licensing fees to Qualcomm for the SEPs used in those modems because, as I'm sure you know, Qualcomm has long refused to license its SEPs to Intel. (Presumably that will be changing as Judge Koh has now told Qualcomm it has to.) Who knows how long it will take to settle these Qualcomm-Apple issues. There may be 4 or 5 years worth of unpaid royalties owed to Qualcomm. Even at 5% of modem cost, that could be a couple billion dollars worth of royalties owed to Qualcomm. And, again, that would be in addition to the royalty payments withheld from when the BCPA was still in effect.

I agree with this analysis. I just don’t know the relevant percentages of Intel v. Qualcomm modems, etc.
 
Patents and copyrights are evil. The notion that the state can enforce this notion of someone "owning" an idea and prevent anyone else from using the same idea is ridiculous and evil. But it's even sadder that so many people have been hoodwinked into buying into this nonsensical, evil idea.
There are over 300 patents on the iPhone alone, you're just saying that because Apple didn't get the ruling they wanted
 
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Shocker, Apple is a patent troll. Hardly surprising :rolleyes:
I do believe people in here claim Qualcomm is a patent troll, despite the law in this case proving the opposite.

This doesn’t look good for Apple against Qualcomm, and several battery scandal investigations to publish their findings yet. And the anti competitive complaint made by Spotify in the EU, it’s not looking very good for Apple this year, but when you take on the big boys this is what you get.
Patent Troll (def): a company that obtains the rights to one or more patents in order to profit by means of licensing or litigation, rather than by producing its own goods or services.
Doesn't really fit the definition of a patent troll from the internet.
 
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So trying to create law to protect the rights of companies that invest in research and development is evil? Protecting the fruit of that research and development, which companies paid for, is evil? If we couldn't do that, no one would do research and development, and the world would stagnate. Your world view is flawed, sir.

Agreed. People get all salty when Apple has judgments against it. IMO part of it is that MR is so scarce on details. Cnet was like...

> One disputed Qualcomm patent covers technology that lets a smartphone quickly connect to the internet once the device is turned on. Another deals with graphics processing and battery life. The third addresses technology that shifts traffic between a phone's apps processor and modem.
...
> it marks an important victory for Qualcomm, burnishing its reputation as a mobile components innovator. The win also lends credibility to the notion that much of the company's innovation is reflected in iPhones.

https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-qualcomm-patent-infringement-verdict/

IMO facts like that are key to understanding why Qualcomm defended its patents.

Such a lazy 'blog' post. I bet MR just read the above and tried to summarise it.
 
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What no way! Say it isn't so! Not possible! Apple is a company of integrity, that cares about morals, equality and privacy!
 
What no way! Say it isn't so! Not possible! Apple is a company of integrity, that cares about morals, equality and privacy!

They weren’t found to have intentionally infringed. You probably infringe dozens of patents a day without knowing it.
 
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