Justice Department Officially Drops Lawsuit Against Apple in Ongoing iPhone Unlocking Dispute [Updated]

[HEK]

The problem with the process that the FBI used to access this shooter's phone is that it took a long time (excluding all the legal ramblings on of course). That long timeframe won't work when a terrorist parks a car full of nuclear explosives in Times Square or next to your kid's school, and the suspect in custody has the abort codes on his iPhone.

Don't keep the abort codes on your phone. Tip number 14
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The San Bernardino shootings were not far fetched. 14 people were killed and 22 injured.

Yeah, both sides can come up with ludicrous examples, like governments turning on cameras in phones to spy on people, or nuclear bombs placed on trains or in buildings. But the more realistic examples are the ones we have to worry about, such as those you mentioned, or the SB shooting. Between tight encryption and a fair judicial review process, I believe we can strike a middle ground somewhere.

Yeah like the FBI vetting these people before hand. Lots of great after the shooting hoopla. Perhaps a closer look at people buying guns and ammunition is a way to proceed. I mean if you are all for invading my privacy on my phone, why not invade my gun and ammo buying privacy.

 

[Denmac1]

Interesting article in the New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/boro...hless-after-f-b-i-spills-glass-of-water-on-it

 

[You are the One]

Its really an NSA problem. Israeli consultant firm outperforms NSA.

It's more likely that Cellulite is a NSA/Mossad store front.

 

[Nuvi]

Why don't you go and tell that to a grieving relative of one of the victims, directly in his or her face and see what that will get you...

Sure, I'll do one better. I'll take all of families killed in terrorism between 2004 and 2013 if you tell your message to grieving families of other US shootings and gun related murders. Sorry mate but you have to deliver 117 000 apologies and I have only 80. Time for reality check. As said, terrorism isn't statistically relevant.

 

[pdjudd]

Actually, why can't Apple sue them back for breach of EULA? Am referring to Psytar, while very different cases but undying issue is still the same, unauthorized modification of software.

The beef of the Psystar case was that Psystar had no legal means to distribute the OS because of copyright violation and lack of license to commercially distribute OS X. Plus they also illegally copied it for the purpose of distribution for profit.

Nothing in the EULA says that you cannot hack a passcode or anything what the FBI may have done. EULA’s have nothing to do with this. It’s totally different. The only thing stopping the feds is existing law.

Apple might have a case concerning some form of malicious action against them but even that would be hard to prove.

 

[Tycho24]

But someone did find a backdoor into the system. So doesn't this still create the same potential disaster that Apple was trying to prevent in the first place? Especially since it was with an international company that has no problem selling its services to anyone?

NO.
The problem wasn't "omg, what if someone can get in through a flaw we haven't caught & patched yet?", it was "wow, it would blow if we could NEVER patch a flaw that we know for certain is there, because we are being pressured to leave said flaw intact to allow the FBI (and anyone else that figures it out), unfettered access."

 

[Nuvi]

The "fear of terrorism"? How about the stark reality of terrorism? In the past month or so, over a thousand people have been killed by Islamic terrorists. I personally have stood in four places where there were later terrorist bombings. That makes it pretty darn real to me if no one else.

You need a reality check. Between 2004 and 2013 only 80 americans have been killed due to terrorism. In the same time period over 117 000 americans were killed by fellow american using guns. Hence, terrorism is statistically irrelevant.

What you are talking about is combat related deaths in far east and in Africa. That is not mainly terrorism, its war. War is ugly and people die. In reality, in western countries only very few people are killed by terrorism especially when compared to normal homicide and murder rates making terrorism statistically irrelevant. Anyway, terrorism was far far bigger problem in 1970's and 1980's when hundreds of people were killed each year in western countries. But hey, if you are worried about some crazy ISIS clown trying to get you then by all means, have fun with your paranoia. Its you right to be afraid.

 

[hiddenmarkov]

There is a difference between protecting civil liberties and aiding criminals. I don't think Apple has the right balance on this one.

where is the guarantee loss of civil liberties will make the world a better place though.

We lose privacy...and they still have their underground means. As they have for years. Since you mention criminals...the FBI (and local LE) has had a thing going with the Italian mafia for decades.

No encrypted cell phones involved. just plain ole they don't put in the accounting ledger book:

cocaine sales +30000
prostitution +30000
contract paid out to Tom Defadro (see business card in rolodex...yes dating myself here) for hit on potential FBI witness named Joe Imamole -60000 (edit one too many zeros, doh)
chop shop at 1st and main +40000

Woohoo up 40000 for the day....


No encryption, the used different words is all. During the say 50's and such and wire taps quite liberal....no smoking guns to bring them down. Years after as well when the FBI never ever tapped them without a warrant because they said they didn't and they don't lie, amiright?

Why? they don't do business over the phone usually. Or use coded language.
Conversation A:

Did you do that thing I asked you about?
Yes.

Click.

Its not:

Conversation B:

did you kill that mole named Joe Imamole at 123 mockingbird lane hitman Tom Smith of 345 Tree lane, Syracuse NY?


Yes Don Attello head of the attelo family at 987 Mobster lane. the white house with the ugly red picket fence and way too many garden gnomes. Put a bullet in thier head, twice, just like you asked.

You see...if tapped, this is hard links. Crime scene named, names named, how the hit went down said. Slam dunk case.

Conversation A happens. As the actual terms of the hit discussed off the phone.

This is why with the Italian mafia the US has had to look for other options. They sick the IRS on them. Tax evasion. OR they create RICO law. For when they can't bring down Don Atello for the 10 people he killed as he rose up the ranks, can't nail him for the 20 people he ordered killed as a captain then Don and the other stuff he did for the crime itself. RICO...finds a straw, grasps it and yay they go to jail. But not for the potentially 30 murder charges and other stuff.

 

[duffman9000]

Cheese,

This shows that Apple was right all along that it was not necessary for the government to make it weaken its encryption to get what it needed pursuant to its warrant, Neil Richards, a law professor at Washington University in St. Louis, and many others have stated, "It’s an implicit concession by the government that its All Writs Act argument wasn’t a good one."

It's over until Congress Acts. So, it's over.

I see what you done did there. You mean these lazy, spineless, worthless sacks of salty rocks don't work? Nah they work a couple of times a week and complain the whole time. That's the American way right there.

 

[lazyrighteye]

Sooooo does Apple have a case against the FBI or Celebrite (or both) for hacking their product?

 

[Tech198]

What case ? There is no case

Since the FBI went their own way with Celebrite....Whats to worry about ? privacy is still safe .... You could argue our phone are not secure because the FBI used forensics company instead of working with Apple, but that the FBI's job of cracking phones anyway.. The issue was that the FBI made a false public stand to Apple did didn't need to.

The fact its an iPhone is not special just because Apple won't work with the FBI to risk privacy..This is what the FBI does, weather an IPhone, or Google phone.... They go to a forensics if they choose to get it cracked.... Thats not a backdoor or vulnerability....

The fact that Apple just had a different/strong viewpoint of standing behind it's users to protect iPhones is purley Apple.. Got nothing to do with the FBI..... Since the FBI didn't get what it wanted, it went to Celebrate.... No problem with that. If Apple choose to make IOS even more secure that's fine, but forenics companies can always get in anyway.. It's their business.

 

[Larry-K]

There is a difference between protecting civil liberties and aiding criminals. I don't think Apple has the right balance on this one.

Sounds good, please identify the criminals.

 

[Wanted797]

Can Apple sue now for losses regarding their defence? Or does a dropped case automatically make the FBI have to pay?

 

[roadbloc]

Can Apple sue now for losses regarding their defence? Or does a dropped case automatically make the FBI have to pay?

The FBI will pay. Actually no they won't. The taxpayer will.

 

[MacBH928]

But who is going to spend 15K to hack my phone. I don't think anyone is that interested.

It makes sense but it also means the guy who charges $15k to unlock a phone can do it for free if he wanted to...


It bothers me because a lot of the services talk about how secure their systems are, then comes along this company that cracks this super-shut iphone in a few days. What about bank accounts, medical files, emails... you get the idea

 

[tuxon86]

Sure, I'll do one better. I'll take all of families killed in terrorism between 2004 and 2013 if you tell your message to grieving families of other US shootings and gun related murders. Sorry mate but you have to deliver 117 000 apologies and I have only 80. Time for reality check. As said, terrorism isn't statistically relevant.

Maybe in hipster and moral relativist world it is, but in the real world terrorism as way more consequences. You can also ask the Syrian refugee trying to relocate somewhere safe while the european countries are locking down their frontiers in response to terrorist attacks. They aren't closing them down because of drunk driving or home invasion now do they? Or do you believe that you know better than they do on this subject...

 

[teslo]

Nobody is talking about policing thoughts. That's tin foil hat nonsense. But let me as you this legitimate question: how would you address the issue? How would you keep encrypted communications, materials, and other personal data safe and secure for law abiding citizens to prevent access by hackers and other thieves, while at the same time allowing law enforcement and national security services to access the encrypted data of a thief or terrorist when lawfully authorized to do so in order to keep us safe?

not being afraid of my own shadow, i would bank on the fact that sometimes bad sh*t happens. just like it did before smartphones; which i would say SHOULD be a safe-haven for info and communications. just like my brain. i don't expect the FBI to forcibly break into my head, nor should they forcibly break into my phone. they've got our actual communications via national carriers, why should they have access to my local encrypted content? they wouldn't have known i 'knew' a suspected terrorist back in the 80s when all i could do was physically meet him and store the memory in my brain. which brings me to my next point...

re: my 'tinfoil hat alarmism'... our thoughts are just electrical impulses that are stored when desired. which sounds almost exactly like that? a home, a car, or a smartphone? and considering how a home and a car are SO far removed from this concept, how should we allow our new laws regarding smartphones be based on the laws regarding homes and cars?

 

[gaximus]

Interesting... I expected this to be dragged out WAY longer!

Although, it'll rear it's head again when apple locks down that security hole (if they can)...

MY QUESTION IS: Did they find anything useful on the iPhone?!?

Gary

No, thats why they probably dropped the case, if they would of found anything they would of used that as a reason to have Apple make a back door. Since they found nothing they want to spot light dropped

 

[igorsky]

Terrorism is not a real threat. The number of people ISIS clowns have managed to kill is statistically insignificant.

Tell that to the people who have lost loved ones to terrorism. A well thought out argument should always include both perspectives.
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But hey, if you are worried about some crazy ISIS clown trying to get you then by all means, have fun with your paranoia.

What an arrogant, and ignorant, statement...especially in light of recent events. Your idea of "paranoia" is another family's real life tragedy. Look I'm on Apple's side, but you're using a very closed-minded opinion to argue for open-mindedness: it didn't happen to me so it's not a real problem.

 

[You are the One]

What an arrogant, and ignorant, statement...especially in light of recent events. Your idea of "paranoia" is another family's real life tragedy. Look I'm on Apple's side, but you're using a very closed-minded opinion to argue for open-mindedness: it didn't happen to me so it's not a real problem.

It's a matter of proportion. People are killed in traffic accidents. Should cars and roads be banned?

People choke on peanuts, should those be banned? People are killed by lightening strikes, should outdoor life be banned? People are killed by slippery floors, should indoor life be banned?

Continue like that and you end up with a ban on people.

The terror meme is ridiculous, it's just a tool for a bunch of psychopathic gangsters to gain total control over society and turn people into slaves. It's a good tool obviously, therefore they themselves go around the world and bomb innocent people until the fear created make people beg to become the psycho's slaves.

As evident.

 

[rowspaxe]

If someone is really worried about terrorists then they need a reality check. The real danger is somewhere else.

Like the world trad center? Oops, that not there anymore

 

[SirCheese]

Cheese,

This shows that Apple was right all along that it was not necessary for the government to make it weaken its encryption to get what it needed pursuant to its warrant, Neil Richards, a law professor at Washington University in St. Louis, and many others have stated, "It’s an implicit concession by the government that its All Writs Act argument wasn’t a good one."

It's over until Congress Acts. So, it's over.

It's never over.

 

[vkd]

Yeah. Nice to see how you try to mute any other opinion than your paranoia before it is even written.
What you do is to look for simple answers to difficult questions. That almost never pays out.

You can agree or disagree, but you will still be wrong.

 

[teslo]

Tell that to the people who have lost loved ones to terrorism. A well thought out argument should always include both perspectives.
[doublepost=1459349886][/doublepost]

What an arrogant, and ignorant, statement...especially in light of recent events. Your idea of "paranoia" is another family's real life tragedy. Look I'm on Apple's side, but you're using a very closed-minded opinion to argue for open-mindedness: it didn't happen to me so it's not a real problem.

should we HAVE to illustrate that we've graduated from the basic concepts every time we speak about the more nuanced successive issues? i feel for the families, i know that terrorism exists (just like shark attacks and lightning strikes). i also know that female mutilation exists in africa, which doesn't affect me directly. but i'd never support a cause that says 'we've got a solution to the female mutilation issue plaguing us africans - only problem is that the solution will possibly fuel random instantaneous mutilations of any woman anywhere in the world if someone with our information comes close to an unsuspecting female - and the criminals who do it will likely remain anonymous.'

that's a very bad solution if those are the possible repercussions. and i'm not going to incessantly mention how awful the mutilations are when i discuss alternate solutions (or how there aren't any good ones out there at the moment). by pointing out that i'm not mentioning them as a YOUR required preface, you aren't really helping anything.

 

[hudson1]

You need a reality check. Between 2004 and 2013 only 80 americans have been killed due to terrorism. In the same time period over 117 000 americans were killed by fellow american using guns. Hence, terrorism is statistically irrelevant.

What you are talking about is combat related deaths in far east and in Africa. That is not mainly terrorism, its war. War is ugly and people die. In reality, in western countries only very few people are killed by terrorism especially when compared to normal homicide and murder rates making terrorism statistically irrelevant. Anyway, terrorism was far far bigger problem in 1970's and 1980's when hundreds of people were killed each year in western countries. But hey, if you are worried about some crazy ISIS clown trying to get you then by all means, have fun with your paranoia. Its you right to be afraid.

I didn't say "Americans". That's was the actual total I saw (it was more than 1000) of civilians killed by Islamic terrorists in a one month stretch. We grieve over what happened in Belgium but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Look at what just happened in Pakistan.