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Hm. Not are secure as they think then.

Actually, I am happy with the level of Apple security on my iPhone and my 6s+ is probably a lot more secure than the phone in question (5c).

In all likelihood the phone was disassembled in a clean room environment and chips were physically deconstructed with solvents to allow probes to access key points internal to the chip. This is not something a typical hacker has the capability to do since it does not involve a software "back door" into the device. It also does not allow for bulk / stealth data collection from a person's phone without their knowledge.
 
They may need the files that are stored locally, just like the FBI did. And since they are built by foxconn how can you be certain that there isn't already a CCP required backdoor. Do you think the NSA is the only one fiddling with communication devises?
[doublepost=1459295036][/doublepost]

Why don't you go and tell that to a grieving relative of one of the victims, directly in his or her face and see what that will get you...

BTDT. It sucks. Makes no difference how the person was killed.
I recommend you climb off your high horse and stick to the topic at hand instead of trying to exaggeratingly emotionalize it.
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What case ? There is no case

Since the FBI went their own way with Celebrite....Whats to worry about ? privacy is still safe .... You could argue our phone are not secure because the FBI used forensics company instead of working with Apple, but that the FBI's job of cracking phones anyway.. The issue was that the FBI made a false public stand to Apple did didn't need to.

The fact its an iPhone is not special just because Apple won't work with the FBI to risk privacy..This is what the FBI does, weather an IPhone, or Google phone.... They go to a forensics if they choose to get it cracked.... Thats not a backdoor or vulnerability....

The fact that Apple just had a different/strong viewpoint of standing behind it's users to protect iPhones is purley Apple.. Got nothing to do with the FBI..... Since the FBI didn't get what it wanted, it went to Celebrate.... No problem with that. If Apple choose to make IOS even more secure that's fine, but forenics companies can always get in anyway.. It's their business.

Chuckle. There is a case. Lot's of cases. The SB one have been asked to be vacated, however the NYC one is under appeal by the DOJ (they may also vacate that one), and there is a growing inquiry by state level LE authorities on how to use the tool. Then add the other 12 that the DOJ has in queue.
This puppy is alive and well. The SB case only garnered the media's primary attention.
 
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should we HAVE to illustrate that we've graduated from the basic concepts every time we speak about the more nuanced successive issues? i feel for the families, i know that terrorism exists (just like shark attacks and lightning strikes). i also know that female mutilation exists in africa, which doesn't affect me directly. but i'd never support a cause that says 'we've got a solution to the female mutilation issue plaguing us africans - only problem is that the solution will possibly fuel random instantaneous mutilations of any woman anywhere in the world if someone with our information comes close to an unsuspecting female - and the criminals who do it will likely remain anonymous.'

that's a very bad solution if those are the possible repercussions. and i'm not going to incessantly mention how awful the mutilations are when i discuss alternate solutions (or how there aren't any good ones out there at the moment). by pointing out that i'm not mentioning them as a YOUR required preface, you aren't really helping anything.

No offense but the the points you and @You are the One are making can all fall under the "No ****, Sherlock" category. I don't disagree with your (very obvious) points, and I don't have a "required preface" as much as I have a distaste for people who feel the need to trivialize terrorism by referring to it as a "meme" or "paranoia". As I stated, I'm on Apple's side but I don't feel the need to trivialize the death of innocents to prove that I'm on the right side oh history.
 
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Maybe in hipster and moral relativist world it is, but in the real world terrorism as way more consequences. You can also ask the Syrian refugee trying to relocate somewhere safe while the european countries are locking down their frontiers in response to terrorist attacks. They aren't closing them down because of drunk driving or home invasion now do they? Or do you believe that you know better than they do on this subject...

That is the single biggest problem: perception.
Terrorism:
  1. the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
It is a disproportionate perceptive response and generally triggers over-reaction by all parties involved; except the terrorists. Your response is a classic example.
 
No offense but the the points you and @You are the One are making can all fall under the "No ****, Sherlock" category. I don't disagree with your (very obvious) points, and I don't have a "required preface" as much as I have a distaste for people who feel the need to trivialize terrorism by referring to it as a "meme" or "paranoia". As I stated, I'm on Apple's side but I don't feel the need to trivialize the death of innocents to prove that I'm on the right side oh history.

edit and disclaimer: i haven't been following your specific discussion, so if it seems like i'm defending someone being a jerk about something, i must claim ignorance here. i'm more interested in the content of the reasoning and definitions people are discussing...

so, considering how weak and desperate ISIL is (a competent opposition to western forces would be far more effective and widespread), i'd say even mentioning terrorism in this national conversation is indeed the very definition of paranoia. "noun: baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others."

in other words, we could be having (should be having) this conversation without 1 single thought about terrorism in our opening arguments. terrorism is a side issue. our privacy and the government's 'reach' into our privacy is the topic at hand. national cyber security and hackers come into play before even terrorism does. terrorism is the mcCarthyistic target of yes, paranoia. tragedies are happening all over the world and they need to be addressed in one way or another, but the act of slapping new bandaids to old laws (drafted before the advent of DIGITAL itself) isn't a valid platform to bring emotional reactions (to mostly world news) into the forefront of a discussion about American constitutional rights. even if there have been a couple terrorist attacks in our country in the last couple decades. they aren't on equal footing considering what's truly at stake. and the feelings of the families of terrorism victims aren't supposed to overshadow everyone else's.
 
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edit and disclaimer: i haven't been following your specific discussion, so if it seems like i'm defending someone being a jerk about something, i must claim ignorance here. i'm more interested in the content of the reasoning and definitions people are discussing...

so, considering how weak and desperate ISIL is (a competent opposition to western forces would be far more effective and widespread), i'd say even mentioning terrorism in this national conversation is indeed the very definition of paranoia. "noun: baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others."

in other words, we could be having (should be having) this conversation without 1 single thought about terrorism in our opening arguments. terrorism is a side issue. our privacy and the government's 'reach' into our privacy is the topic at hand. national cyber security and hackers come into play before even terrorism does. terrorism is the mcCarthyistic target of yes, paranoia. tragedies are happening all over the world and they need to be addressed in one way or another, but the act of slapping new bandaids to old laws (drafted before the advent of DIGITAL itself) isn't a valid platform to bring emotional reactions (to mostly world news) into the forefront of a discussion about American constitutional rights. even if there have been a couple terrorist attacks in our country in the last couple decades. they aren't on equal footing considering what's truly at stake. and the feelings of the families of terrorism victims aren't supposed to overshadow everyone else's.

I couldn't have said it better.
The constitution is not a document we decide to toss away when bad things happen.
The constitution is there to keep even worse things from happening to law abiding citizens.
The founding father's had seen first hand the results of tyranny and wrote numerous papers on the subject.
While we should all grieve for the fallen in terrorist attacks; we should also realize that in a free society there are risks.
By changing our laws and creating an even more restrictive society, the terrorist win.
I refuse to give up freedoms for the appearance of security.
"Freedom is not free; there is a cost associated with it."
Unrestricted movement, means that a person hell bent on destruction and willing to die can cause damage.
Fortunately, except for a very, very small minority of people, the instinct to live far exceeds the desire to do damage.
 
Im going to take a guess here, Android phones would be much easier to unlock?

Good question and no easy answer. Its likely depends on the model, the OEM, and the version of Android.
Is my iPhone 6S+ easier or harder than my Note 5?
  • Both are encrypted.
  • Both use a complex passcode.
  • Both use fingerprint technology.
I suspect they are close and haven't seen a decent answer.
 
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As I stated, I'm on Apple's side but I don't feel the need to trivialize the death of innocents to prove that I'm on the right side oh history.

I don't understand where you get trivialising from. When we see people hurt of course we feel empathy for them.

This has nothing to do with that, the discussion is about whether it's reasonable that the government robs people of all their freedoms and liberties by leveraging emotional reactions of fear, caused by comparatively a very small amount of people being hurt in very dramatic ways.

The emotional reactions of fear we see displayed in society are the results of a very cynical manipulation of peoples perceptions.

But the same people that call for the abolishment of civil liberties and freedoms based on a few deaths trivialise the death of one million Iraqis. Or the phosphorus bombings of Palestinian children by a criminal apartheid government. Or the insane treatment of the Kurds by the nutcase Erdogollum. The governments doing those things are involved in genocide, their leaders should be put on trial for crimes against humanity. Instead it's peoples freedoms and liberties that are put on trial.

There is no proportion or logic at all in this, just blind sheeplike emotional reaction based on absolute trust in governments that behaves like gangsters.
 
The phone in question did not have secure enclave on chip. The exploit of tricking the nand into not counting trials won't work with secure enclave. Brute force attack by guessing the four digit code is not a backdoor. FBI wanted to use this case to get Apple to create an actual backdoor so that even latest iPhones would be hackable.

Use a complex password with numbers, letters and symbols longer than 20 digits and they can let their brute force code guessing box run for 10,000 years.

They didn't brute force it...

Last year a hacker sold a private exploit to an Israeli company. They hired this company to exploit a security bug. We don't know which one and probably never will. I remember that at the time, the Israeli company paid an 'undisclosed amount' for this hack, and they were the highest bidder. There's a BIG market for grey hats... not all hackers produce 'jailbreaks' for the public.

Put simply... they likely 'jailbroke' the device using a highly technical exploit, enabled root, set their own root password and then copied all the (now) unencrypted data off the phone for analysis by the police.

One can presume there are many other bugs that could be exploited. There will always be this kind of 'back door'. It's just that it's easier for Apple to find them because they know what has technique is being used and can scan through the code for iOS without any decompiling.

Apple were NEVER asked to program iOS with a 'master key'... as Cook suggested they were being asked to do. This wouldn't have given access to CURRENT data anyway.
 
I don't understand where you get trivialising from. When we see people hurt of course we feel empathy for them.

This has nothing to do with that, the discussion is about whether it's reasonable that the government robs people of all their freedoms and liberties by leveraging emotional reactions of fear, caused by comparatively a very small amount of people being hurt in very dramatic ways.

The emotional reactions of fear we see displayed in society are the results of a very cynical manipulation of peoples perceptions.

But the same people that call for the abolishment of civil liberties and freedoms based on a few deaths trivialise the death of one million Iraqis. Or the phosphorus bombings of Palestinian children by a criminal apartheid government. Or the insane treatment of the Kurds by the nutcase Erdogollum. The governments doing those things are involved in genocide, their leaders should be put on trial for crimes against humanity. Instead it's peoples freedoms and liberties that are put on trial.

There is no proportion or logic at all in this, just blind sheeplike emotional reaction based on absolute trust in governments that behaves like gangsters.
There are so many causes of deaths in the US alone on daily basis that receive such a disproportionately small reaction to. I strongly doubt that the relatives and friends of the 27 daily deaths from drunk drivers are any less sad or horrified over their loss. This amounts to 10,000 people every year. Where is the outcry, where is the sense of proportion. I venture to say that had 27 people died by "terrorist" hands today, the news could not stop talking about it for a week.

There is a proposal in California to help stop this daily tragedy, by installing lock out alcohol detector in convicted drunk driver cars. Any whiff of alcohol prevents the vehicle from starting. In the test counties this has been tried in over 1 million start prevent actions have occurred. How many lives has this already saved.

Of course an entire branch of government spending billions of dollars a year has not been created. As has been the case for "terror". If lives are truelly what is important the breath test lock seems to be far more effective. Of course without the publicity.
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They didn't brute force it...

Last year a hacker sold a private exploit to an Israeli company. They hired this company to exploit a security bug. We don't know which one and probably never will. I remember that at the time, the Israeli company paid an 'undisclosed amount' for this hack, and they were the highest bidder. There's a BIG market for grey hats... not all hackers produce 'jailbreaks' for the public.

Put simply... they likely 'jailbroke' the device using a highly technical exploit, enabled root, set their own root password and then copied all the (now) unencrypted data off the phone for analysis by the police.

One can presume there are many other bugs that could be exploited. There will always be this kind of 'back door'. It's just that it's easier for Apple to find them because they know what has technique is being used and can scan through the code for iOS without any decompiling.

Apple were NEVER asked to program iOS with a 'master key'... as Cook suggested they were being asked to do. This wouldn't have given access to CURRENT data anyway.

I say it was a brute force attack. Check out the UFED unlock device code video in this article. This is a brute force attack, trying codes after the auto erase function is disabled by the device. They say they try codes late in video for hours to find correct unlock code. Once that is done, it's same as the owner unlocking it. The phone is open for FBI to explore.

Isn't that an iPhone 5c in the video?

http://www.ibtimes.com/fbi-cellebri...king-iphone-are-old-friends-2-million-2342283

Plus this article shows FBI and Cellebrite are old friends using them for $2 million worth of hacks in past. Therefore when FBI director James Comey testified under oath to congress, he was lying when he said they had tried everything and only Apple could help. How much confidence does that garner, when director of FBI lies in front of congress. Shouldn't the Director of Justice Department, his boss he reports to, indict him for purjury. Just plain sad.
 
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Like the world trad center? Oops, that not there anymore

Seriously mate, WTC 9/11 was the worts ever terrorist incident in the world. Are you going to base your greatest fears on that? In reality even during that same year approximately 13000 people were killed in "normal shootings" in US. So in 9/11 around 3 000 were killed due terrorism but in normal shootings more than 4 times that amount. So yes, terrorism isn't something one really needs to worry about.
 
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I didn't say "Americans". That's was the actual total I saw (it was more than 1000) of civilians killed by Islamic terrorists in a one month stretch. We grieve over what happened in Belgium but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Look at what just happened in Pakistan.

Sorry mate but those numbers are from actual combat casualties. ISIS is fighting conventional war in Middle East with sickening brutality. However, it doesn't make it terrorism. In general, war is brutal and without mercy. Terrorism in western countries is mariginal threat at best when compared other threats.

Maybe in hipster and moral relativist world it is, but in the real world terrorism as way more consequences. You can also ask the Syrian refugee trying to relocate somewhere safe while the european countries are locking down their frontiers in response to terrorist attacks. They aren't closing them down because of drunk driving or home invasion now do they? Or do you believe that you know better than they do on this subject...

You are wrong. European countries are not locking their boarders due to terrorism. They are locking their boarders due to refuges in general. This is to control the flow of refuges and has nothing to do with terrorist threats.
 
No, thats why they probably dropped the case, if they would of found anything they would of used that as a reason to have Apple make a back door. Since they found nothing they want to spot light dropped

I don't believe that's the way it works, they had the case to force Apple to get into the phone (since they had no other way) once they had a way in, they didn't have the case.

I don't think finding something this time isn't a legal reason to force Apple to make a back door for next time.

Gary
 
Seriously mate, WTC 9/11 was the worts ever terrorist incident in the world. Are you going to base your greatest fears on that? In reality even during that same year approximately 13000 people were killed in "normal shootings" in US. So in 9/11 around 3 000 were killed due terrorism but in normal shootings more than 4 times that amount. So yes, terrorism isn't something one really needs to worry about.
Think about fact we all consider 13,000 people killed by shootings in US as "normal" we have way more to be concerned about than one terrorist's phone that they didn't destroy because the other two they crushed had all the good stuff on em.
 
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I'm sure they'll bite. lol

If they did buy it, they still have to honor the FBi contract lol
[doublepost=1459475279][/doublepost]So im guessing apple fans will now sue apple since Apple phones are not"secure" as apple advertised? Especially if a company is unlocking
 
If they did buy it, they still have to honor the FBi contract lol
[doublepost=1459475279][/doublepost]So im guessing apple fans will now sue apple since Apple phones are not"secure" as apple advertised? Especially if a company is unlocking
The 5c with iOS 8 is an older phone, not as secure as the latest phones with latest software. I might expect general public to lump all iPhones together. But expect more knowledge about the product from macrumors member.

Let's see what they can do with a 6s with complex 12 digit unlock code. Then let's talk.
 
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