Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

JHankwitz

macrumors 68000
Oct 31, 2005
1,911
58
Wisconsin
I'd still like to know why ebooks are more expensive than paper books (besides greed) it should be cheaper since there isnt any production costs or shipping, etc. WTH! :confused:

How do you think Apple is going to make money to pay for the giant servers being built around the country? These servers are expensive to build and operate, especially when forced to use solar and wind power.
 

jaymzuk

macrumors regular
Jun 1, 2012
222
46
This lawsuit is ridiculous. Must be funded by Amazon.

This is all very simple. Book publishers are upset with Amazon because they can't set the prices of their books (they want MORE money not less). They sign with Apple so they can set their own prices. Surprise, surprise, books are higher priced because Book publishers are allowed to set the prices to prices THEY want (higher).

Amazon should be the one sued, not Apple.

I like how you call the lawsuit ridiculous, then make a wildly unfounded assertion as to how the suit has been funded.

The free market should dictate prices. Prices shouldn't be artificially inflated simply because the laws of supply and demand are no longer working in your favour.
 

silvetti

macrumors 6502a
Nov 24, 2011
952
376
Poland
I like how you call the lawsuit ridiculous, then make a wildly unfounded assertion as to how the suit has been funded.

The free market should dictate prices. Prices shouldn't be artificially inflated simply because the laws of supply and demand are no longer working in your favour.

Hope you never have the idea of starting your own shop and then have to deal with Amazon.


Also funny that the US legally allows lobbying (which in Europe is called BRIBING) and then sue Apple for this :D
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,762
10,890
The free market should dictate prices. Prices shouldn't be artificially inflated simply because the laws of supply and demand are no longer working in your favour.

Was the free market dictating prices prior to the release of iBooks? Or was Amazon using their market power to artificially lower prices in order to harm competition?

I'm actually wondering what would a "loss" for Apple would mean.

Right now Apple is letting the publishers set the prices. If Apple loses this case, would that be reversed so that Apple is given direct control over the e-book prices?

Is that the outcome you're hoping for? I'm honestly not sure what the end result here would be.

Right now, Apple (and Amazon, etc.) set prices after the DOJ forced Apple to abandon their agency contracts with the publishers without any due process.
 

I.Love.Apple

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2012
127
0
How do you think Apple is going to make money to pay for the giant servers being built around the country? These servers are expensive to build and operate, especially when forced to use solar and wind power.

They can do it the same way as Amazon (which BTW has bigger servers). Paying for servers by conspiring with other companies to inflate the prices is criminal.
 

I.Love.Apple

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2012
127
0
Was the free market dictating prices prior to the release of iBooks? Or was Amazon using their market power to artificially lower prices in order to harm competition?

How exactly did Amazon do it? Did they threaten book publishers not to carry their books if they sold via iBooks (or any other retailer)? They did not. Apple could freely compete on price with Amazon. They could have set book prices lower than Amazon and steal all their sales. Sure the profit margins would not be what Apple wanted them to be hence a solution - conspiring with publishers. Amazon is OK doing business with 3% profit margins while Apple wants then to be at 50% (remember those billions of dollars in cash in foreign banks?).
 

charlituna

macrumors G3
Jun 11, 2008
9,636
816
Los Angeles, CA
Amazon should be the one sued, not Apple.

Also sued perhaps.

If apple made forcing agency model on other companies a condition of being in he store, I could agree with the govt. and I think that the whole MFN thing could be loosened up. Like say if someone marks down something on a promo for no more than 14 days, fine. Or no less than 20% off the price available to everyone else.

And they could have let amazon keep the wholesale thing but include conditions that the publisher sets a price range amazon has to stay in, etc. amazon would of course object and then the publishers would cut them off.
 

TWSS37

macrumors 65816
Feb 4, 2011
1,107
232
Amazon loses money on ebooks... This is why big corporations win, they can play chicken longer...

Amazon buys books at 10 dollars sells a 9,99 (they lose 1 cent), how can they make ANY profit from volume sales ?
They don't and since not that many companies can keep up with losing money (don't forget the cost of running the business itself, not just the buying/selling the merchandise) they just end up running the competition to the ground...

Go ask your tiny bookshops around the corner.

It's like doorbuster sales on Black Friday; lost money on the item you enticed the customer in for, make it up on the 'additional' items you may directly (or indirectly buy) as a result of your book shopping experience.
 

Mystic386

macrumors regular
Nov 18, 2011
162
40
Not really. The deal with Apple and the publishing company meant that Amazon could no longer sell the publisher's books lower than the price the publisher set. Before, Amazon was able to sell a book at their own loss, not the publisher's. The publisher still got the price out of Amazon they wanted. It was Amazon taking the loss and the risk of losing $$$. Apple did not like this strategy and set up a new plan with the publishers which is what the DOJ is highlighting now.

----------



That is a question for the publishers.

This was my understanding and so what Apple was introducing was a level playing field and Amazon and the US Government don't like it. Amazon because it means they can't run people out of business. The US Government argues that consumers lose. I would argue that letting Amazon engage in dumping and anti competitive behaviour means consumers lose longer term.

For me as a consumer I've seen the loss of book stores and I prefer to have them. Amazon is driving them out of business.

I lose the ability to thumb through a book before buying it.

I think there's a point where we should be saying no to mega businesses that suck the life out of communities. The crazy thing is allowing this immoral case to proceed also means the IRS and individual states lose income.

It appears that setting a minimum and what would be argued by many as a fair price is what the US Government is arguing is price fixing. The fact that Amazon avoids a bulk of it's US tax by basing itself largely in Luxembourg gives it a huge advantage over retailers in the US or pretty much any country worldwide.

This here is the issue for me. Apple go to set a minimum price that is fair that supports everyone. The US Government raise that another US company (Amazon) as an example effectively worth protecting for consumers. This is really the crux of their case. The US Government I understand is also pursuing for Amazon for $1.5 + Billion in unpaid or avoided tax. Ironic.

I personally think the US Government will lose the case. The intention of laws against price fixing is to stop prices being kept artificially high. In this case it seems a case of keeping the prices artificially fair in the light of Amazon's practices.

I have my fingers crossed for Apple. Americans should do the same, or pay more taxes to make up for the tax that Amazon is negating.
 

Brandon263

macrumors 6502
Sep 12, 2009
404
37
Beaumont, CA
They can do it the same way as Amazon (which BTW has bigger servers). Paying for servers by conspiring with other companies to inflate the prices is criminal.

Completely agree. Seems like Apple is in the wrong here. As a consumer, I like what Amazon is doing. And why are the publishers complaining; they were getting their fair share anyway.

And before people cry out "Woe the little bookshop," I'd just like to point out that this has to do with e-books. There's basically three or four major e-book sellers in the game, and I'd like to see more competition between them not less, as would have happened had Apple had its way with its price-fixing.
 

charlituna

macrumors G3
Jun 11, 2008
9,636
816
Los Angeles, CA
Except that isn't what Amazon is doing. Amazon is selling at low/no/negative profit margins, they're hoping to make it up in volume. That isn't price fixing, the publishers still get the wholesale price of their books, Amazon sets the retail price, which is many cases is below what they bought them for from the publishers.

Which no other company could afford to match because they didn't have Amazons larger profit margin on other items to eat any losses. And Amazon demanded a MFN. Plus they pulled stunts like delisting entire publisher catalogs because they heard the company was going to set up house with Apple
 

iAshley

macrumors member
Feb 22, 2011
76
10
The race to the bottom isn't good for anyone.

Small profit margins mean more sales are needed.
Which means less businesses can survive, less people have jobs. Plus companies scrimp on quality to shave a few more pence off their products.

If instead, profit margins were fixed at say 30% in this case, then all businesses would have a fair chance, consumers choice would be based on quality of service and product, which is good for the consumer. Plus there would be more businesses and more jobs.
 

charlituna

macrumors G3
Jun 11, 2008
9,636
816
Los Angeles, CA
Apple did not like this strategy and set up a new plan with the publishers which is what the DOJ is highlighting now.

Nope. The publishers didn't like it. Which is why they were prime to take Apple's offer because Apple was giving them price control just like with all other forms of media.
 

I.Love.Apple

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2012
127
0
The race to the bottom isn't good for anyone.

Small profit margins mean more sales are needed.
Which means less businesses can survive, less people have jobs. Plus companies scrimp on quality to shave a few more pence off their products.

If instead, profit margins were fixed at say 30% in this case, then all businesses would have a fair chance, consumers choice would be based on quality of service and product, which is good for the consumer. Plus there would be more businesses and more jobs.



Fixing margins/prices is illegal. Is not it clear? Today Apple decided to fix margins at 30% tomorrow they may prefer 300%. And did you really notice the drop in quality of e-books when profit margins were reduced?
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,762
10,890
How exactly did Amazon do it? Did they threaten book publishers not to carry their books if they sold via iBooks (or any other retailer)? They did not. Apple could freely compete on price with Amazon. They could have set book prices lower than Amazon and steal all their sales.

They are selling many best sellers below cost. Leveraging their market dominance in both paper and digital book sales to offset the losses with best sellers to make up the profits with the rest of their catalog. It's really hard for new or smaller competitors to compete when they are undercut on the best sellers that get people in the door.

Sure the profit margins would not be what Apple wanted them to be hence a solution - conspiring with publishers.[ Amazon is OK doing business with 3% profit margins while Apple wants then to be at 50% .

Apple's profit margins on eBook sales are nowhere near 50%. Heck, their revenue from each eBook was only 30%.

(remember those billions of dollars in cash in foreign banks?)

Why? That money has nothing to do with this conversation.
 

burnside

macrumors 6502
Jun 8, 2010
474
14
Nope. The publishers didn't like it. Which is why they were prime to take Apple's offer because Apple was giving them price control just like with all other forms of media.

My bad, you are right, it was the publishers. Goofed up that one!
 

parapup

macrumors 65816
Oct 31, 2006
1,291
49
Whatever happened to free choice?

Consumers who don't like Apple pricing, can go to Amazon. Its that simple!

Except the book publishers are in on the inflated Apple store prices - the publishers as Jobs told Mossberg, would work to make the prices the same for Amazon (i.e. $14.99 instead of $9.99) and then consumers won't have a choice.
 

I.Love.Apple

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2012
127
0
This was my understanding and so what Apple was introducing was a level playing field and Amazon and the US Government don't like it. Amazon because it means they can't run people out of business. The US Government argues that consumers lose. I would argue that letting Amazon engage in dumping and anti competitive behaviour means consumers lose longer term.

For me as a consumer I've seen the loss of book stores and I prefer to have them. Amazon is driving them out of business.

I lose the ability to thumb through a book before buying it.

I think there's a point where we should be saying no to mega businesses that suck the life out of communities. The crazy thing is allowing this immoral case to proceed also means the IRS and individual states lose income.

It appears that setting a minimum and what would be argued by many as a fair price is what the US Government is arguing is price fixing. The fact that Amazon avoids a bulk of it's US tax by basing itself largely in Luxembourg gives it a huge advantage over retailers in the US or pretty much any country worldwide.

This here is the issue for me. Apple go to set a minimum price that is fair that supports everyone. The US Government raise that another US company (Amazon) as an example effectively worth protecting for consumers. This is really the crux of their case. The US Government I understand is also pursuing for Amazon for $1.5 + Billion in unpaid or avoided tax. Ironic.

I personally think the US Government will lose the case. The intention of laws against price fixing is to stop prices being kept artificially high. In this case it seems a case of keeping the prices artificially fair in the light of Amazon's practices.

I have my fingers crossed for Apple. Americans should do the same, or pay more taxes to make up for the tax that Amazon is negating.

I can't believe what Apple apologists can come up with. "Apple go to set a minimum price that is fair that supports everyone." Really? In capitalism market is supposed to decide what the fair price is not Apple. You have some very Apple-centric model of capitalism in mind.
 

AgentElliot007

macrumors 6502a
Mar 22, 2010
570
315
In the digital world, I don't see why the agency model isn't ideal for the content providers. Even if they're the one's setting the prices, it still boils down to them finding a price point that will entice consumers to purchase their products. That Apple maneuvered to put this system in place only seems like a natural evolution to me if the publishers are to survive. The publishers were/are getting screwed by Amazon's model because ultimately, Amazon is just going to put the publishers and everyone else that sells books out of business, and I have zero doubts about that being their goal. Whether you think Amazon's dominance or the end of publishers are good or bad ideas is an ever more complicated issue, and there are plenty of legitimate arguments for both sides.

I can see the argument that's being made against Apple as being perhaps technically legitimate under our current system, but again, it only illustrates to me the many problems with our current system. We'll pitch a fit about something like this, calling it anti-competitive, but not consider at all that Amazon's model ultimately would kill off most of what we know as the book industry and leave them with what amounts to a monopoly. But worse, it's highly likely that Amazon's model would ultimately fail as well, but beforehand, it would have (and certainly already has) done a lot of damage to the overall business of selling books.

Publishers aren't perfect, bookstores aren't perfect, Apple's not perfect, and Amazon's not perfect. But what if ultimately the agency model is still just the best idea? Doesn't that count for anything? More than ever in the digital world, authors don't have to go to publishers; they can go straight to Apple or Amazon and sell their books and set their price and Amazon and Apple take their cut. If you want the benefits of a publisher, then you go that route and hopefully get your advance (How many of you have read about the games Amazon is playing here too? If you don't think Amazon is out to kill the publishers and become the publisher, you're not informed.) and your marketing, editing, distribution, etc. taken care of.

But either way, allowing the content providers to set their own prices for the various marketplaces ultimately seems like the best solution to avoid one company coming in and killing off the industry so they can take over, which is ultimately what Amazon is trying to do. I have no problems with them signing authors and trying to become a publisher, but I don't want to live in a world where every industry succumbs to the Wal-Mart effect.

Again, I just have to ask, doesn't it matter at all that the agency model just might be the best idea for all parties involved, even consumers when one truly considers the long-term effects of a marketplace dominated by one player, that ultimately would become the world's publisher as well?
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,762
10,890
Fixing margins/prices is illegal. Is not it clear? Today Apple decided to fix margins at 30% tomorrow they may prefer 300%. And did you really notice the drop in quality of e-books when profit margins were reduced?

That's not true. Apple didn't fix margins nor did they fix prices. :confused:
 

I.Love.Apple

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2012
127
0
They are selling many best sellers below cost. Leveraging their market dominance in both paper and digital book sales to offset the losses with best sellers to make up the profits with the rest of their catalog. It's really hard for new or smaller competitors to compete when they are undercut on the best sellers that get people in the door.

But that's what retail business is all about. This way Amazon can "abuse" their market power only as long as they sell lower than everybody else. Apple could have easily undercut them by enticing shoppers with deep discounts, say, on iPads and iPhones. However it looks like Apple is a very backward thinking retailer.
 

4TheLoveOfTech

macrumors 6502
Feb 27, 2013
432
0
E-Mail from Jobs

I think MacRumors forgot about the letter Steve wrote to James Murdoch which proves the e-book pricing conspiracy led by none of than Steve Jobs.

I'd say it's a pretty slam dunk case because this letter was aloud to be submitted for evidence today.

There's much more in the All Thing D article

http://allthingsd.com/20130515/heres-that-steve-jobs-e-book-email-to-james-murdoch/


Jobs_Murdoch_email-616x480.jpg
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.