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I can't believe what Apple apologists can come up with. "Apple go to set a minimum price that is fair that supports everyone." Really? In capitalism market is supposed to decide what the fair price is not Apple. You have some very Apple-centric model of capitalism in mind.

The market still ultimately decides with the agency model. And Apple wasn't demanding specific price points so much as tiers that minimized the pennies-difference price-flux that most retailers use to game search engine's. Again, there were tiers for just about every dollar amount you get by adding $1 to $0.99 if you read through all the material.

That the market would almost always go for a cheaper option of an identical good isn't proof that the cheaper option is the best option. Apple looked at the industry as a whole, where it's been, and where things are going, and they offered a model that they thought would ultimately work for everyone. They painted a picture for the publishers, but ultimately it was still the publishers decision. They knew that the publishers hated Amazon's $9.99 model, and they had a pretty good idea why, so they made suggestions for price points of new releases that make sense for everyone. Remember, it was a negotiation, and they had to find a way to get these guys to see a spot in the middle between where they were selling hardcovers in brick and mortars at one point to where Amazon was selling ebooks. And again, they had to consider how it would affect their business, as they ultimately have to support the infrastructure for the service to exist, so they certainly have reason to be invested in finding price points that will work for all parties involved.

Hard line perspectives on capitalism ignore a lot of fundamental flaws in the system if you were to push it to the extreme. By pushing for an agency model, Apple doesn't bypass the market. The forces of supply and demand take on a different meaning in the digital world though where there is an endless supply of product and the potential for a complete centralization of where that supply comes from, in this case, Amazon. To continue using the traditional retail model that worked in regional brick and mortar bookstores in the digital, connected world is inviting the company that can afford to bleed the longest the ability to win the entire market, as well as your entire industry.

If you're a smart author or a publisher, and you're thinking ahead, you consider what happens if you just surrender to Amazon's play on the traditional model, and you have to know that at some point when Amazon holds all the cards, the rules will likely change, and they'll be looking to make a profit for a change. You've got to be asking, what happens then? (They're a public company, and they're doing well in the stock market because everyone's banking on that day eventually coming.) The publishers know they'll be dead before too long if they continue down this road. The authors will have to learn to play a completely different game, which for many will be great, but for many others, will be difficult, which again, speaks to the benefits and downsides of publishers verses authors directly distributing their work. Neither is the wholly right or wrong way to do it, just different ways for different people.

Bottom line, Apple's thinking about making the system on whole work for everybody. Personally, I don't care what they have to do to wake up some of these content creators and publishers to see it. If you want to see a healthy evolution into the digital world for this industry, the best way to do it is the agency model. If you simply try to apply the most traditional and basic of economic principles to the digital economy, you end up ignoring key fundamental differences that absolutely change the game and open the door to rampant instability, irrational price erosion, and monopolies, not to mention the complete loss of any semblance of culture that once existed in these industries.
 
Unless your goal is to put pressure on your competitors to get out of your market while also being a loss-leader and encouraging customer loyalty.

I'm not sure if you are describing Amazon and eBooks or Apple and music.;)


I agree with most of what you said here, but I think that line into predatory pricing drawn by the law isn't very clear. For the most part it's about divining intent.

http://www.ftc.gov/bc/antitrust/predatory_pricing.shtm

Personally, I think Amazon's dominance of the physical book market and early dominance of the ebook market are clear indicators of their intent to create a monopsony .

Predatory pricing is a gray area because anti-trust laws are supposed look at things through the prism of what's best for the consumer and low prices, typically, are consumer friendly. Predatory pricing seems to only become apparent after the damage is done. The line between predatory pricing and the classic 'razor/razor blade' business model can be pretty muddy.
 
Which no other company could afford to match because they didn't have Amazons larger profit margin on other items to eat any losses. And Amazon demanded a MFN. Plus they pulled stunts like delisting entire publisher catalogs because they heard the company was going to set up house with Apple

A detail that often goes unnoticed: Amazon has been selling all these Kindles that require you to have eBooks in Amazon's proprietary format. iBooks reads books in standard ePub format (just unfortunate that Apple doesn't mark books with and without DRM as such), so everyone can sell books that can be read on iPhone / iPad.
 
The market still ultimately decides with the agency model. And Apple wasn't demanding specific price points so much as tiers that minimized the pennies-difference price-flux that most retailers use to game search engine's. Again, there were tiers for just about every dollar amount you get by adding $1 to $0.99 if you read through all the material.

That the market would almost always go for a cheaper option of an identical good isn't proof that the cheaper option is the best option. Apple looked at the industry as a whole, where it's been, and where things are going, and they offered a model that they thought would ultimately work for everyone. They painted a picture for the publishers, but ultimately it was still the publishers decision. They knew that the publishers hated Amazon's $9.99 model, and they had a pretty good idea why, so they made a suggest for price points of new releases that make sense. Remember, it was a negotiation, and they had to find a way to get these guys to see a spot in the middle between where they were selling hardcovers in brick and mortars at one point to where Amazon was selling ebooks. And again, they had to consider how it would affect their business, as they ultimately have to support the infrastructure for the service to exist, so they certainly have reason to be invested in finding price points that will work for all parties involved.

Hard line perspectives on capitalism ignore a lot of fundamental flaws in the system if you were to push it to the extreme. By pushing for an agency model, Apple doesn't bypass the market. The forces of supply and demand take on a different meaning in the digital world though where there is an endless supply of product and the potential for a complete centralization of where that supply comes from, in this case, Amazon. To continue using the traditional retail model that worked in regional brick and mortar bookstores in the digital, connected world is inviting the company that can afford to bleed the longest the ability to win the entire market, as well as your entire industry.

If you're a smart author or a publisher, and you're thinking ahead, you consider what happens if you just surrender to Amazon's play on the traditional model, and you have to know that at some point when Amazon holds all the cards, the rules will likely change, and they'll be looking to make a profit for a change. You've got to be asking, what happens then? (They're a public company, and they're doing well in the stock market because everyone's banking on that day eventually coming.) The publishers know they'll be dead before too long if they continue down this road. The authors will have to learn to play a completely different game, which for many will be great, but for many others, will be difficult, which again, speaks to the benefits and downsides of publishers verses authors directly distributing their work. Neither is the wholly right or wrong way to do it, just different ways for different people.

Bottom line, Apple's thinking about making the system on whole work for everybody. Personally, I don't care what they have to do to wake up some of these content creators and publishers to see it. If you want to see a healthy evolution into the digital world for this industry, the best way to do it is the agency model. If you simply try to apply the most traditional and basic of economic principles to the digital economy, you end up ignoring key fundamental differences that absolutely change the game and open the door to rampant instability, irrational price erosion, and monopolies, not to mention the complete loss of any semblance of culture that once existed in these industries.

Excuse me but it's none of the Apple's business to tell book publishers what pricing model they have to use. Apple itself is not a publisher. It would be fine if they negotiated prices with all publishers individually and not facilitated price fixing as they did. What happened here is that all e-book market players (Apple was about to enter the market) conspired against Amazon and ultimately the customers in order to raise book prices. Yes they all agreed that this model will work better for them then if they had to compete on price against each other. It's not the first time this happened and nor will it be the last time. Still illegal. All participants (but Apple) have already acknowledged this by now. I would be very surprised if Apple who instigated this whole thing in a first place would be acquitted.
 
A detail that often goes unnoticed: Amazon has been selling all these Kindles that require you to have eBooks in Amazon's proprietary format. iBooks reads books in standard ePub format (just unfortunate that Apple doesn't mark books with and without DRM as such), so everyone can sell books that can be read on iPhone / iPad.

A proprietary format that has its specification open and has tools to make them, everyone can make mobi or azw books.
 
The market still ultimately decides with the agency model. And Apple wasn't demanding specific price points so much as tiers that minimized the pennies-difference price-flux that most retailers use to game search engine's. Again, there were tiers for just about every dollar amount you get by adding $1 to $0.99 if you read through all the material.

That the market would almost always go for a cheaper option of an identical good isn't proof that the cheaper option is the best option. Apple looked at the industry as a whole, where it's been, and where things are going, and they offered a model that they thought would ultimately work for everyone. They painted a picture for the publishers, but ultimately it was still the publishers decision. They knew that the publishers hated Amazon's $9.99 model, and they had a pretty good idea why, so they made suggestions for price points of new releases that make sense for everyone. Remember, it was a negotiation, and they had to find a way to get these guys to see a spot in the middle between where they were selling hardcovers in brick and mortars at one point to where Amazon was selling ebooks. And again, they had to consider how it would affect their business, as they ultimately have to support the infrastructure for the service to exist, so they certainly have reason to be invested in finding price points that will work for all parties involved.

Hard line perspectives on capitalism ignore a lot of fundamental flaws in the system if you were to push it to the extreme. By pushing for an agency model, Apple doesn't bypass the market. The forces of supply and demand take on a different meaning in the digital world though where there is an endless supply of product and the potential for a complete centralization of where that supply comes from, in this case, Amazon. To continue using the traditional retail model that worked in regional brick and mortar bookstores in the digital, connected world is inviting the company that can afford to bleed the longest the ability to win the entire market, as well as your entire industry.

If you're a smart author or a publisher, and you're thinking ahead, you consider what happens if you just surrender to Amazon's play on the traditional model, and you have to know that at some point when Amazon holds all the cards, the rules will likely change, and they'll be looking to make a profit for a change. You've got to be asking, what happens then? (They're a public company, and they're doing well in the stock market because everyone's banking on that day eventually coming.) The publishers know they'll be dead before too long if they continue down this road. The authors will have to learn to play a completely different game, which for many will be great, but for many others, will be difficult, which again, speaks to the benefits and downsides of publishers verses authors directly distributing their work. Neither is the wholly right or wrong way to do it, just different ways for different people.

Bottom line, Apple's thinking about making the system on whole work for everybody. Personally, I don't care what they have to do to wake up some of these content creators and publishers to see it. If you want to see a healthy evolution into the digital world for this industry, the best way to do it is the agency model. If you simply try to apply the most traditional and basic of economic principles to the digital economy, you end up ignoring key fundamental differences that absolutely change the game and open the door to rampant instability, irrational price erosion, and monopolies, not to mention the complete loss of any semblance of culture that once existed in these industries.

Thank you for that thorough and enlightening insight.
 
Predatory pricing is a gray area because anti-trust laws are supposed look at things through the prism of what's best for the consumer and low prices, typically, are consumer friendly. Predatory pricing seems to only become apparent after the damage is done. The line between predatory pricing and the classic 'razor/razor blade' business model can be pretty muddy.

Yep. A typical response I've received in the past is that predatory pricing requires the raising of prices after competition has left the market. I'd prefer it not get that far. :D

Maybe it's a bias on my part, but I do see the iTunes Store as being in a different position with respect to music. It's primary competitor is and was piracy.
 
Thank you for that thorough and enlightening insight.



Nothing enlightening there. Just your regular Apple apology. The notion that Amazon somehow would be able to run everybody out of e-book business and then hike the prices is ridiculous. The investment required for starting e-book selling business is very low. I could easily sell thousands if not millions of e-books from my desktop (I would need a better Internet connection though :D). So, no there is no risk of Amazon screwing the readers once they established a "monopoly". That's why Amazon practices do not qualify as predatory pricing either.
 
Yes! Thank-you. Someone else who understands the issue at hand.

If you guys spent a few minutes and actually reviewed the presentation by the DOJ - you would clearly see how the publishers themselves viewed their actions as suspect..."double delete this email" etc.

Wake up, this has nothing to do with a free market anything. All the major publishers, with Apple as its ring leader, colluded on the *SAME* price points for the epub market. That is ILLEGAL. Just like it would be for any other industry. Ultimately, YOU PAID MORE as a result as soon as they launched this agency model (as demonstrated in their average price point graphs). The fact that some of the Publishers CEO's were hesitant to sign on at the last minute without all 4 majors agreeing to this new model ....well...nuff said.


Excuse me but it's none of the Apple's business to tell book publishers what pricing model they have to use. Apple itself is not a publisher. It would be fine if they negotiated prices with all publishers individually and not facilitated price fixing as they did. What happened here is that all e-book market players (Apple was about to enter the market) conspired against Amazon and ultimately the customers in order to raise book prices. Yes they all agreed that this model will work better for them then if they had to compete on price against each other. It's not the first time this happened and nor will it be the last time. Still illegal. All participants (but Apple) have already acknowledged this by now. I would be very surprised if Apple who instigated this whole thing in a first place would be acquitted.
 
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Maybe it's a bias on my part, but I do see the iTunes Store as being in a different position with respect to music. It's primary competitor is and was piracy.

Maybe that's because Apple created an scenario where small companies couldn't compete against them and stay in business so it looked like no one even tried?;)

Rhapsody and a re-booted Napster both tried and failed but they were only tiny blips on the radar. Even now Apple has reportedly offered to give TimeWarner double what Panodra does for streaming ad revenue and Panora, like other streaming services, is working on very narrow margins. Apple, on the other hand, doesn't even need to profit off their streaming music venture, they just need to give people another reason to buy Apple hardware.

Of course part of the nut to crack is the popularity of the closed ecosystem that Apple has developed which leads to a whole other discusion about the pros and cons of the walled garden approach and whether or not that's ultimately good or bad for consumers.
 
I'd still like to know why ebooks are more expensive than paper books (besides greed) it should be cheaper since there isnt any production costs or shipping, etc. WTH! :confused:
Read a bit on this story, we have apple to thank for that. It didn't use to be like this.

A detail that often goes unnoticed: Amazon has been selling all these Kindles that require you to have eBooks in Amazon's proprietary format. iBooks reads books in standard ePub format (just unfortunate that Apple doesn't mark books with and without DRM as such), so everyone can sell books that can be read on iPhone / iPad.

That's not quite true, apple's ibooks author, which is supposed to be the prime vehicle for apple's ibookstore has a proprietary format.
 
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All participants (but Apple) have already acknowledged this by now. I would be very surprised if Apple who instigated this whole thing in a first place would be acquitted.

The government didn't win in a court of law. The publishers settled to make the government go away.

Maybe the publishers engaged in price fixing, maybe they didn't. But Apple never told them to, they simply offered equivalent deals to all the major publishers. How is that illegal?
 
Not sure what you are getting at here. Apple was not paying any wholesale price..

No, but the most favored nation clause and agency model combined took any potential pricing options away from the competition.

If Amazon, B&N or A.N.Other retailer that doesn't work on the agency model wanted to sell books at a loss (And they may wish to do so as loss leaders), then they can. However, the most favored nation clause and agency model meant that Apple would then sell the same book at a price that matches the competition, but would still maintain a 30% margin on the book.

There's quite a good summary of the allegations here; http://www.macstories.net/stories/understanding-the-agency-model-and-the-dojs-allegations-against-apple-and-those-publishers/

Here's the bottom line: eBook prices went up because of Apple. Whether you're a good little fanboy or not, you received absolutely no benefit because of Apple's actions, and you've paid more as a consequence, and a number of the publishers in questions have already settled because they know they're in the wrong.
 
DOJ is suing the party that broke Amazon's monopoly (in a completely legal manner) and by doing so, the DOJ is (indirectly) supporting predatory pricing (of Amazon). Apple did not engage in price fixing. Apple engaged in offering publishers (the people you get books from) a legal business deal. This resulted in increased competition. By definition, price fixing DECREASES competition. Amazon's model did not let the market decide. Apple's model did. The DOJ has pretty strong evidence... for making the legitimate practice of law look like a complete farce.

DOJ = Department of Jokes.
 
This must be Teat Party's definition of "waste". DOJ already got tens of millions of dollars from book publishers. Now they will get more from Apple. It's anything but waste. Besides, even if government did not get a penny for this it would still be totally justified to spend tax payers money because taxpayers will get this money back with nice interest now that the monopoly was broken and e-book prices dropped dramatically. It's just a nice illustration of why saying that all government spending is a waste is plain stupid. I bet citizens in some low tax rate countries (like Somalia) would be happy to have a government like ours.

Thanks for clearing that up. The DOJ certainly is a well run agency.
If Apple had simply increased their Lobbying expenditures 70% in 2011 instead of waiting till 2013 there would be no trial. That is your Govt. :)
 
Apple did not but that's what the original poster suggested as a good idea. Government is not suggesting Apple fixed the prices. Apple is charged with facilitating the fix which was done by publishers. Before Apple came into book business, for more than 100 years book publishers could not agree on going with agency model. Agency model materialized the same day iBooks was announced by Apple. This alone should be enough to convict Apple but government has a lot more evidence than that.

Nah, I'm actually saying the government should be for it, it's better for everyone long term.
If they let the manufacturers set prices then people would still only pay what it's worth and companies would compete on quality.
Plus there would be more jobs because more businesses could afford a smaller chunk of the pie. Which means more competition and people have more money to spend.

(I'm not just talking ebooks and apple either)
 
what is up with Apple legal? why are they going through with the lawsuit. it will just bring out all their bad practices where they will definitely be found guilty.

bad pr all around. apple better hope this suit doesn't drag out and are more focused on this than their products.
 
OK, let's get this out of the way now...

Doesn't the Government have anything better to do...and so on.

:rolleyes:

Ya, like spy on reporters and smuggle fully automatic weapons to mexico.
I mean come on Holder, this is so beneath you.
 
The way our government has been going lately, I'd rather they find something like this to keep them busy instead of finding new ways to erode our rights.

You mean like how republicans removed our right to personal privacy via unwarranted wire tapping?
 
If you're making a negative profit, volume only makes things worse.

This would be correct if Amazon only sold best selling books, but the don't. They also sell everything under the sun that you can place on price on. And these products they undoubtedly make a profit on. It's the NYT best selling books that helps grab new customers of other products.

----------

You mean like how republicans removed our right to personal privacy via unwarranted wire tapping?

Are you speaking of the recent wire tapping of AP reporters? This wire tapping that occurred with Obama in office?

----------

A detail that often goes unnoticed: Amazon has been selling all these Kindles that require you to have eBooks in Amazon's proprietary format. iBooks reads books in standard ePub format (just unfortunate that Apple doesn't mark books with and without DRM as such), so everyone can sell books that can be read on iPhone / iPad.

A detail that also goes unnoticed: stripping the DRM off Amazon-purchased eBooks has always been and continues to be extremely easy that grandmas can do it. Although "illegal", this allows Amazon-purchased eBooks to be read on any device one wishes. And I'm sure Amazon is not ignorant of this fact and they have yet to alter their DRM methods. The same cannot be said for iTunes-purchased eBooks, in effect making them have the "proprietary" format.
 
A detail that also goes unnoticed: stripping the DRM off Amazon-purchased eBooks has always been and continues to be extremely easy that grandmas can do it. Although "illegal", this allows Amazon-purchased eBooks to be read on any device one wishes. And I'm sure Amazon is not ignorant of this fact and they have yet to alter their DRM methods. The same cannot be said for iTunes-purchased eBooks, in effect making them have the "proprietary" format.

Stripping the DRM off Amazon-purchased eBooks is not "illegal", but it is illegal. It is in fact criminal. It is a DMCA violation which unlike plain copying of copyrighted works is criminal. So I'll prefer to accept Amazon's wishes, not become a criminal, and not buy their eBooks. And even after DRM is removed, it is still in a proprietary format. Seriously, claiming that one DRM method is better than another because you can remove it is ridiculous.

There are plenty of eBooks on Apple's store that are not DRM protected. And plenty of books from other sources in unprotected ePub format.
 
Eddie Cue

He seems to be a guy who cares little about customers, less about the rule of law, and least of all about morality.

Fire him.

Apple is in deep ***** over this, and Cue is the reason.
 
No, but the most favored nation clause and agency model combined took any potential pricing options away from the competition.

If Amazon, B&N or A.N.Other retailer that doesn't work on the agency model wanted to sell books at a loss (And they may wish to do so as loss leaders), then they can. However, the most favored nation clause and agency model meant that Apple would then sell the same book at a price that matches the competition, but would still maintain a 30% margin on the book.

Yep. The agency model takes pricing options away from other retailers. And it gives them to publishers. Not to Apple. And it's legal.

The question is whether Apple was part of the alleged collusion.


Yep.

Here's the bottom line: eBook prices went up because of Apple. [...] you received absolutely no benefit because of Apple's actions, and you've paid more as a consequence,

Only if you consider lower pricing the only possible benefit. I see increased competition and sustainable pricing as a benefit. My opinion is that Amazon is bad for the book industry. I believe that there is a benefit to a local book store that Amazon has crushed.

and a number of the publishers in questions have already settled because they know they're in the wrong.

Maybe they are. That doesn't mean that Apple is. Apple's opening statement implies that the publishers made side agreements that Apple was not a part of.
 
Stripping the DRM off Amazon-purchased eBooks is not "illegal", but it is illegal. It is in fact criminal. It is a DMCA violation which unlike plain copying of copyrighted works is criminal. So I'll prefer to accept Amazon's wishes, not become a criminal, and not buy their eBooks. And even after DRM is removed, it is still in a proprietary format. Seriously, claiming that one DRM method is better than another because you can remove it is ridiculous.

There are plenty of eBooks on Apple's store that are not DRM protected. And plenty of books from other sources in unprotected ePub format.

Wait, you think stripping off a DRM so you can read an eBook on your preferred mobile eBook reader is criminal? What a concrete world you live in. Before I realized the world is not all black and right, right or wrong, I used to think like that.

As for your other points, stripping books off Amazon produce mobi files, which can be "legally" converted to any eBook file you wish. How proprietary is that?

And what are these non-DRM books on iTunes you speak of? Pride and Prejudice? Beowulf? These are public domain books. You can get them anywhere, including Amazon.
 
Stripping the DRM off Amazon-purchased eBooks is not "illegal", but it is illegal. It is in fact criminal. It is a DMCA violation which unlike plain copying of copyrighted works is criminal. So I'll prefer to accept Amazon's wishes, not become a criminal, and not buy their eBooks. And even after DRM is removed, it is still in a proprietary format. Seriously, claiming that one DRM method is better than another because you can remove it is ridiculous.

There are plenty of eBooks on Apple's store that are not DRM protected. And plenty of books from other sources in unprotected ePub format.

What's there to complain about. You can read an Amazon eBook on practically any device out there. While I would have preferred that Amazon used an open format like ePub, I don't see their use of a different format as DRM. They have gone out of their way to have their eBook on every device out there. The only restriction is that you have to use their reader and you may want it on another reader. Not bad really. Hardly anything to complain about really.
 
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