Kevin Smith vs. Southwest Airlines

[dukebound85]

I highly doubt you were asked to surrender your seat due to your weight unless you are referring to being on a model airplane or a plane made out of Styrofoam or something similar.

And I highly doubt you fly enough nor know my experiences at all. Weight concerns on a plane is a very real thing and is frquently encountered

Granted, I have been asked at the counter when checking in and not after I had boarded

 

[iOrlando]

And I highly doubt you fly enough nor know my experiences at all. Weight concerns on a plane is a very real thing and is frquently encountered

Granted, I have been asked at the counter when checking in and not after I had boarded

i know enough to state my idea about the subject and I know that you are either leaving pieces of the story out or something was way off with the airline employee that talked to you.

commercial airplanes are designed to handle mutiple loads of their usual passenger weight and you can have all sumo wrestlers fly on a plane and the plane will be fine. Sure, it will be way more expensive because it will burn a ton more fuel, and you might need to stay on the ground for 2-3 seconds longer then taking off, but thats about it. compared to the total weight of fuel, luggage, and the plane, having some 300 lbs passengers will not bring the plane down.

if you are referring to a very small private aircraft, thats one thing, and when you hear those stories about the airplanes that crash due to overweight conditions, most of the time it has to do with the luggage and equipment and not fat passengers.

so if you flew a commercial airliner that normally has 100-200 passengers, and you weigh 180 lbs, there is no rational reason for someone to tell you not to board due to being too fat.

and the whole issue with kevin smith being told to leave the plane and overweight passengers needing 2 tickets..has nothing to do with the plane not being able to handle the weight, it has to do with safety and comfort inside the plane incase of an emergency (i.e. general mobility inside the plane)

 

[Abstract]

so if you flew a commercial airliner that normally has 100-200 passengers, and you weigh 180 lbs, there is no rational reason for someone to tell you not to board due to being too fat.

Unless he's of Tom Cruise's height, or shorter.

 

[dukebound85]

so if you flew a commercial airliner that normally has 100-200 passengers, and you weigh 180 lbs, there is no rational reason for someone to tell you not to board due to being too fat.

yes it was a commercial airliner
no it was not a 747

it was a plane that held maybe 50 people

weight is a concern

i was not kicked off the plane
i was asked, as was anyone else, if they would surrender their seat for weight concerns at the check in kiosk

if you are referring to a very small private aircraft, thats one thing, and when you hear those stories about the airplanes that crash due to overweight conditions, most of the time it has to do with the luggage and equipment and not fat passengers.

for smaller jets, you can bet the passenger weight exceeds the luggage weight

commercial airplanes are designed to handle mutiple loads of their usual passenger weight and you can have all sumo wrestlers fly on a plane and the plane will be fine. Sure, it will be way more expensive because it will burn a ton more fuel, and you might need to stay on the ground for 2-3 seconds longer then taking off, but thats about it. compared to the total weight of fuel, luggage, and the plane, having some 300 lbs passengers will not bring the plane down.

you would be surprised

aircraft are built with VERY little factors of safety

 

[JNB]

you would be surprised

aircraft are built with VERY little factors of safety

Not true. Modern aircraft are built with very large margins of safety, when operated in accordance with the Aircraft Operating Manual. In fact, the operating margins are far greater than in than cars, or toasters, or room heaters.

In commercial operations, any "weight-related" incident has more to do with placement of the weight and other factors than the absolute weight onboard.

 

[dukebound85]

Not true. Modern aircraft are built with very large margins of safety, when operated in accordance with the Aircraft Operating Manual. In fact, the operating margins are far greater than in than cars, or toasters, or room heaters.

In commercial operations, any "weight-related" incident has more to do with placement of the weight and other factors than the absolute weight onboard.

I disagree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_of_safety

Buildings commonly use a factor of safety of 2.0 for each structural member. The value for buildings is relatively low because the loads are well understood and most structures are redundant. Pressure vessels use 3.5 to 4.0, automobiles use 3.0, and aircraft and spacecraft use 1.4 to 3.0 depending on the materials.

The field of aerospace engineering uses generally lower design factors because the costs associated with structural weight are high. This low design factor is why aerospace parts and materials are subject to more stringent quality control. The usually applied Safety Factor is 1.5, but for pressurized fuselage it is 2.0 and for main landing gear structures it is often 1.25.

Also
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_25-303.html
This is from the FAA and it states that a factor of safety of 1.5 must be applied for loads external to structure

 

[JNB]

Keep in mind, these are design or regulatory limits, not standard operating or company limits, which in US commercial operations are usually more restrictive than those of ether the manufacturer or the FAA. I regularly fly out of a high-traffic, high density altitude airport and know from experience that flights are often cancelled or pax & cargo rebooked because of pilot or company-induced limits well within the required margins.

So, Wikipedia notwithstanding, you are saying that a 50%-300% margin is "little"? Or are you saying that one fat ass will make my plane crash? 😛

 

[yg17]

yes it was a commercial airliner
no it was not a 747

it was a plane that held maybe 50 people

weight is a concern

i was not kicked off the plane
i was asked, as was anyone else, if they would surrender their seat for weight concerns at the check in kiosk

The only weight concern on a plane, even the small regional jets, is where the weight is, not how much (granted, an RJ full of morbidly obese people may have trouble). It needs to be evenly distributed, having 300 pound men in aisles A and B, and 80 pound anorexics in aisles C and D is a problem, they have to distribute weight as evenly as possible.

When they asked if anyone would surrender their seat, they weren't asking if if you would be willing to be kicked off the flight and take a different one. What they meant was if you booked a specific seat, say a window seat or an exit row seat, would you be willing to be relocated to a different seat on the flight for weight concerns.

Weight distribution really isn't a problem on big jets (737 and larger) but on RJs before takeoff you will almost always see the flight attendant walk down the plane and make sure the weight is evenly distributed and make notes on a sheet (presumably to give to the pilots to decide if the distribution is good or not)

 

[dukebound85]

The only weight concern on a plane, even the small regional jets, is where the weight is, not how much (granted, an RJ full of morbidly obese people may have trouble). It needs to be evenly distributed, having 300 pound men in aisles A and B, and 80 pound anorexics in aisles C and D is a problem, they have to distribute weight as evenly as possible.

agree to an extent

When they asked if anyone would surrender their seat, they weren't asking if if you would be willing to be kicked off the flight and take a different one. What they meant was if you booked a specific seat, say a window seat or an exit row seat, would you be willing to be relocated to a different seat on the flight for weight concerns.

no, it was for a completely different flight altogether. They offered hotels + a free ticket.

I was there mind you

Weight distribution really isn't a problem on big jets (737 and larger) but on RJs before takeoff you will almost always see the flight attendant walk down the plane and make sure the weight is evenly distributed and make notes on a sheet (presumably to give to the pilots to decide if the distribution is good or not)

no argument there

So, Wikipedia notwithstanding, you are saying that a 50%-300% margin is "little"? Or are you saying that one fat ass will make my plane crash? 😛

I have never heard of planes with a factor of safety of 3. that was a shock. I have heard of some less than 1 however

But yes, a FoS of 1.5, from the world I operate in is very low

 

[yg17]

no, it was for a completely different flight altogether. They offered hotels + a free ticket.

I was there mind you

That's odd then. I've been on completely full regional jet flights (oh what fun that is 🙄) and never once have they asked anyone to be bumped due to weight reasons. I wonder if it was a miscommunication between the flight crew and gate agent.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

My guess is he does not exactly fit very well in the seats and the arm rest are rubbing against his sides which requires the purchase of an extra seat per SW and most airlines polices.

Lets face it most people would be annoyed to have some one fat touching them for the entire flight and Kevin Smith is very fat.

Call me shallow but I sure as hell would not want some fat guy hang at all over his sit. It invades my personal space and on airplanes it already is bad enough.

 

[dmr727]

That's odd then. I've been on completely full regional jet flights (oh what fun that is 🙄) and never once have they asked anyone to be bumped due to weight reasons. I wonder if it was a miscommunication between the flight crew and gate agent.

I think I can shed some light on this. JNB alluded to it, and I'll be a bit more specific. The maximum takeoff weight for a given transport category airplane can be limited based on a number of performance factors. I won't get into the details unless someone asks, but usually the most limiting factor has to do with how well the airplane climbs if an engine were to fail.

As you can imagine, the altitude and temperature at an airport can greatly affect an aircraft's performance. So a 50 seat RJ might be able to take off today from Phoenix fully loaded with passengers while still meeting the single engine climb gradient required by the departure procedure. But that same airplane in the middle of August, when it's 45ºC instead of 23ºC (like it was today), might only be able to meet that required gradient with 45 passengers onboard. Most of the time the airlines plan for this, but sometimes the airplane is a little heavier than they anticipated, or it was a little hotter that day, and they need to bump a passenger or two to make the numbers work.

So dukebound85 isn't completely off his rocker. 😉 You'll see this happen most often during Summer in the Southwest, where the airports tend to be at higher elevations and at high temperatures. PHX, LAS, ABQ, ELP, SLC, and so on...

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

he's inspiring a boycott for people of either large size...

Awesome!

 

[iOrlando]

I think I can shed some light on this. JNB alluded to it, and I'll be a bit more specific. The maximum takeoff weight for a given transport category airplane can be limited based on a number of performance factors. I won't get into the details unless someone asks, but usually the most limiting factor has to do with how well the airplane climbs if an engine were to fail.

As you can imagine, the altitude and temperature at an airport can greatly affect an aircraft's performance. So a 50 seat RJ might be able to take off today from Phoenix fully loaded with passengers while still meeting the single engine climb gradient required by the departure procedure. But that same airplane in the middle of August, when it's 45ºC instead of 23ºC (like it was today), might only be able to meet that required gradient with 45 passengers onboard. Most of the time the airlines plan for this, but sometimes the airplane is a little heavier than they anticipated, or it was a little hotter that day, and they need to bump a passenger or two to make the numbers work.

So dukebound85 isn't completely off his rocker. 😉 You'll see this happen most often during Summer in the Southwest, where the airports tend to be at higher elevations and at high temperatures. PHX, LAS, ABQ, ELP, SLC, and so on...

ok. i can somewhat agree with that. I guess my issue is 180 lbs is not heavy at all compared to the masses. Isn't the average male weight 150-190? I can see them picking out someone who may "look" heavy, but if they are picking out 180lbers, doesnt that somewhat include most males on the flight? There must have been 180 lb females too..right?

i can see maybe slightly overweight people being banned from the emergency aisle seats simply due to agility, but to get kicked off a flight altogether, you really need to be huge. (not familiar with this kevin smith..character..he didnt look all that big in jay and slient bob..did he grow bigger?)

 

[dmr727]

^^^ sorry, I probably wasn't clear - the kicking people of size off a flight has nothing to do with what I posted - I was just giving an explanation for what dukebound85 observed.

As far as the Kevin Smith issue, that's an argument of physical size - not weight. The airlines use average weights for passengers, so if they need to pull someone off because of a performance issue, it could just as easily be a 100lb female as it could be Kevin Smith.

 

[eawmp1]

Let's take the weight issue out of the equation and talk size.

When I purchse a seat on a plane I feel I am entitled to the width of space afforded my seat and 1 armrest. I think that space extends vertically from the floor to the roof. When someone intrudes into that space, I am being inconvenienced. You want/require more space, you need to pay for more space (extra seat or business/first class). If my next door neighbor wants to build a house larger than his lot, he must purchase an adjoining lot.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

^^^ sorry, I probably wasn't clear - the kicking people of size off a flight has nothing to do with what I posted - I was just giving an explanation for what dukebound85 observed.

As far as the Kevin Smith issue, that's an argument of physical size - not weight. The airlines use average weights for passengers, so if they need to pull someone off because of a performance issue, it could just as easily be a 100lb female as it could be Kevin Smith.

Yeah I been on a flight were American threw some one off the flight due to weight issues then moved 2 rather large people from the back of the plane to the front.

Person thrown off was a very small female who just happen to worked for the airline. This followed by my a few passenger suite cases being removed from the plane (some of which turned out to be my parents)

I over heard bits of the conversation between the flight attendees and the pilot. First you here the plane is over loaded and needs to be rebalanced. Rather unnerving flight to be on when that how they fixed it.
It was a 2 engine turbo prop that american fly's that I was on.

 

[steve2112]

ok. i can somewhat agree with that. I guess my issue is 180 lbs is not heavy at all compared to the masses. Isn't the average male weight 150-190? I can see them picking out someone who may "look" heavy, but if they are picking out 180lbers, doesnt that somewhat include most males on the flight? There must have been 180 lb females too..right?

i can see maybe slightly overweight people being banned from the emergency aisle seats simply due to agility, but to get kicked off a flight altogether, you really need to be huge. (not familiar with this kevin smith..character..he didnt look all that big in jay and slient bob..did he grow bigger?)

TWiT (This Week in Tech, a tech podcast for those who don't know) went into this a bit this week. It seems Smith usually voluntarily buys two tickets when he flies Southwest. He isn't required to do so, but I suppose he likes the privacy and extra elbow room. Leo read the Southwest apology, but it was a bit vague and rambling. From what I could figure out, it seems the pilot saw that Smith had purchased two tickets, figured he was a lot of weight, and relayed the message to have him removed.

 

[yg17]

Yeah I been on a flight were American threw some one off the flight due to weight issues then moved 2 rather large people from the back of the plane to the front.

Person thrown off was a very small female who just happen to worked for the airline. This followed by my a few passenger suite cases being removed from the plane (some of which turned out to be my parents)

She was kicked off because she worked for the AA. She was likely flying free (a perk of being an airline employee) but when flying free, when space is needed, they're first to go.

I over heard bits of the conversation between the flight attendees and the pilot. First you here the plane is over loaded and needs to be rebalanced. Rather unnerving flight to be on when that how they fixed it.
It was a 2 engine turbo prop that american fly's that I was on.

I wouldn't be worried. Ultimately, the final decision on whether or not to fly is the pilot's, not ground crew or a bean counter at the corporate HQ. The pilots have families they want to get home to too, so if they feel the plane is unsafe to fly, they will not fly it.

 

[mcrain]

There is a simple solution.

Airlines use fuel to fly their aircraft. The heavier the aircraft, the more fuel is required.

My wife and I are both smaller in stature, weigh less than most other people, and we are usually pretty efficient in our packing. The two of us, with baggage probably weigh less than some individuals alone.

I think when you fly you should have a minimum seat rental fee plus a weight cost. Therefore, my wife and I would pay a fee for the space we occupy, 2 seats (and I mean 2 seats without a large person encroaching on our armrests just because they see we have extra space), plus a fee for our body weight and baggage combined. So, if we weighed 310 pounds with baggage, we would pay the same weight cost as a single larger person, or a single person with heavy bags.

To my tall or big friends, I understand things may not be all that comfortable for you when I recline my seat, or put my bony elbow on my armrest, but I didn't make you tall or big, and it is not fair for you to encroach on the space I am using just because I'm smaller than you.

As for the seat sizes and room on a plane, you can buy a first class ticket if you want more space or suffer with the rest of us.

I have a hard time having sympathy for KS, or other large/tall people. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up squished against the window because the person in the center and on the isle are both large, and they act like they are entitled to use as much of my space as they want.

I heard someone suggest putting panels between the seats instead of merely armrests. I'd love the opportunity to request one of those. I have plenty of room unless someone next to me tries to take it.

I wouldn't be worried. Ultimately, the final decision on whether or not to fly is the pilot's, not ground crew or a bean counter at the corporate HQ. The pilots have families they want to get home to too, so if they feel the plane is unsafe to fly, they will not fly it.

Actually, there is an office on site at each airport for each airline that is responsible for weight and balance of the aircraft. That office relays the information to the pilot who then has to make sure the changes required are made.

 

[aristobrat]

KS bought two seats on a flight, then got to the airport and requested to catch an earlier flight. Nothing wrong his part.

A Southwest employee put KS on the standby list for an earlier flight. Nothing wrong here.

The mistake came when a Southwest employee cleared KS to fly the earlier flight -- and allowed him to board the flight -- when there weren't TWO free seats for him.

At that point, short of letting KS fly on that flight (which sounds like it would have involved someone else surrendering their seat), there's nothing Southwest could have done to "make it right" for KS.

 

[dukebound85]

ok. i can somewhat agree with that. I guess my issue is 180 lbs is not heavy at all compared to the masses. Isn't the average male weight 150-190? I can see them picking out someone who may "look" heavy, but if they are picking out 180lbers, doesnt that somewhat include most males on the flight? There must have been 180 lb females too..right?

i can see maybe slightly overweight people being banned from the emergency aisle seats simply due to agility, but to get kicked off a flight altogether, you really need to be huge. (not familiar with this kevin smith..character..he didnt look all that big in jay and slient bob..did he grow bigger?)

Did you read my posts? I was never kicked off

I have been asked at the check in counter (as was everyone else) if I would voluntarily surrender my seat.

I was never approached once boarded the plane

 

[Rt&Dzine]

My wife and I are both smaller in stature, weigh less than most other people, and we are usually pretty efficient in our packing. The two of us, with baggage probably weigh less than some individuals alone.

I think when you fly you should have a minimum seat rental fee plus a weight cost. Therefore, my wife and I would pay a fee for the space we occupy, 2 seats (and I mean 2 seats without a large person encroaching on our armrests just because they see we have extra space), plus a fee for our body weight and baggage combined. So, if we weighed 310 pounds with baggage, we would pay the same weight cost as a single larger person, or a single person with heavy bags.

To my tall or big friends, I understand things may not be all that comfortable for you when I recline my seat, or put my bony elbow on my armrest, but I didn't make you tall or big, and it is not fair for you to encroach on the space I am using just because I'm smaller than you.

As for the seat sizes and room on a plane, you can buy a first class ticket if you want more space or suffer with the rest of us.

I have a hard time having sympathy for KS, or other large/tall people. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up squished against the window because the person in the center and on the isle are both large, and they act like they are entitled to use as much of my space as they want.

I somewhat agree with you about paying by weight. But I'm thin and within average height and there isn't enough leg room for me. Part of the problem is all the people cramming their huge bags in the overhead compartments leaving no room for my one bag which I have to stow under the seat and further limit my leg room. Another part of the problem is I'm not pushy enough.

 

[Gregg2]

Bottom Line

The airlines are behind the times. Seats are too narrow: 17 inches! I'm 5'-9" and 155 pounds. In other words, average height, and thin, but my doctor says I'm at the weight I should be for my height, gender, age. I'm 15 inches wide at my hips.

More that 50% of the U.S. population is overweight. Hard to believe, but that's what a recent news report claimed.

I know for a fact that seats in our local baseball stadium are all wider than 17 inches. They vary from 18 to 25 or so. The airlines need to replace at least half of their 17" seats with 25" seats. (17 x 3 = 51) Now, not all airplanes have 5 across, so it could become difficult on some to get the right number of "normal" width seats on board.

They'd probably have to raise prices, but could offer a discount for the "skinny" seats. First, someone has to figure out how to "police" the purchasing of those seats. What do they do if someone books one, but is too big to fit into it? I guess that's the problem.

Leg room will probably never be addressed. The airlines will have to do something about seat width eventually. People are getting fatter, but not taller. They will lose seats, and that translates into lower profits. If anything, there could be less leg room!

 

[aristobrat]

The airlines need to replace at least half of their 17" seats with 25" seats.

Don't most of them already have something like that? I think it's called "business class" or "first class". Bigger seats. Tada. 😀

I'm 6'4 and 240lbs. Flying back from Germany to Chicago ("economy"), I was very happy that United offered the option of "economy plus" seats (with an extra 5" of legroom) for $100 more.