Lack of accountability from forum moderators

[facedmurkroots]

Folks, posting this here as it seems the correct section to leave ‘feedback’. Hoping other users can chime in if they think likewise.

When will there be accountability from moderators on MR forums? They will remove posts, send warnings, suspend and ban folks left, right and centre. And when they do - no explanation, locked conversations so that you cannot reply nor can you even start a conversation to ask or enquire.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason. Vague rules quoted even though in at least one case for me they did not apply whatsoever.

Do site owners review the performance of moderators?

I understand that they volunteer their time but this does not mean we forget quality, fairness or reason. Owners make a living from this site so I would like to think they care if people are being bullied by moderators.

I have kept this vague - not referring to a specific incident but I am fine with any of my personal incidents being referred to. I wonder how many others feel the same way and are treated the same way.

 

[russell_314]

Folks, posting this here as it seems the correct section to leave ‘feedback’. Hoping other users can chime in if they think likewise.

When will there be accountability from moderators on MR forums? They will remove posts, send warnings, suspend and ban folks left, right and centre. And when they do - no explanation, locked conversations so that you cannot reply nor can you even start a conversation to ask or enquire.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason. Vague rules quoted even though in at least one case for me they did not apply whatsoever.

Do site owners review the performance of moderators?

I understand that they volunteer their time but this does not mean we forget quality, fairness or reason. Owners make a living from this site so I would like to think they care if people are being bullied by moderators.

I have kept this vague - not referring to a specific incident but I am fine with any of my personal incidents being referred to. I wonder how many others feel the same way and are treated the same way.

I haven’t had too many problems but I think it depends on what part of the forums you go to. The political forum is a hotbed so it’s very easy to say something that could cause moderation. For that I avoid politics here and so far I’ve been good. Another thing is perspective. I could say something to you in a reply meaning no insult but the mod might see it as me being sarcastic or mocking you. It’s a fine line.

I wouldn’t stress about it that much. They should tell you exactly what they didn’t like when they delete or edit the post.

 

[I7guy]

You made a post https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/im-sick-and-tired-of-macrumors-forum.2446142/post-33644079 in this thread and now created a separate thread. For essentially the same question asked in that thread.

That thread has some useful information and if you didn’t read through the thread and just take the OPs gripe at face value, you’re missing out on useful information.

 

[facedmurkroots]

You made a post https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/im-sick-and-tired-of-macrumors-forum.2446142/post-33644079 in this thread and now created a separate thread. For essentially the same question asked in that thread.

That thread has some useful information and if you didn’t read through the thread and just take the OPs gripe at face value, you’re missing out on useful information.

I’ve read that thread, I appreciate you bringing it up though. My post there was more just agreeing and empathising with the OP.

I typed out the rest of this reply for you but I’m not going to post it just in case that ends up getting me banned or something. I sincerely appreciate you pointing out that thread though

 

[chown33]

Every moderation message contains the following text, which includes a link to the Contact form.

If you have concerns or questions about this notice, submit them using the Contact form. ...

If there is a technical problem preventing you from using the Contact form, please describe exactly what happens when you click the link.

 

[I7guy]

I’ve read that thread, I appreciate you bringing it up though. My post there was more just agreeing and empathising with the OP.

I typed out the rest of this reply for you but I’m not going to post it just in case that ends up getting me banned or something. I sincerely appreciate you pointing out that thread though

Post 57 in the other thread has useful information about moderation policies. Also there are the Macrumors rules which are here: https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Folks, posting this here as it seems the correct section to leave ‘feedback’. Hoping other users can chime in if they think likewise.

When will there be accountability from moderators on MR forums? ..........

Are your concerns a (perceived) lack of accountability, or, simply a disagreement with the way your posts (and, perhaps others) have been moderated?

Are your concerns about how moderator decisions are arrived at - in terms of implementation of, interpretation of, and application of, in other words, enforcing, - the forum rules (some of which have changed over time, quite often, after discussion in this section of the forum), or, simply a strong desire to adamantly state that you believe that the people who moderate the forum lack accountability?

This site isn't a newspaper, or publication, that depends on reader response; neither is it the sort of business or company primarily answerable to shareholders or investors (rather than, for example, consumers, or employees).

Rather, it is a platform that was originally established to discuss Apple products and explore rumours about the release of Apple products, and it is a platform that is owned by a single individual, and is staffed and run by (mostly unpaid) volunteers.

Thus, the very idea of accountability, in the sense you seem to suggest, isn't really applicable, as it isn't in the case of many online platforms; in actual fact, the site doesn't have to be accountable to anyone but its owner.

Yes, there are rules - which anyone who joins the site has agreed to - and which have changed at times, changes which are frequently a reflection of the constantly - and sometimes dramatically - changing wider (socio-economic-cultural-political) environment of the online world, and which, to the credit of the site, are often discussed with the membership, without any input from the forum membership being binding on the owner of the site.

Now, whether or not I agree with this state of affairs is largely immaterial (although, spoiler alert: Personally, I think that greater state and supranational regulation of the online universe is long overdue, but then, I'm European, and therefore approach and arrive at such discussions from a rather different perspective than many others do).

In any case, I would suggest that to focus on a notion of "accountability" is to miss the point, as it isn't really applicable to this discussion.

Notwithstanding that, you might have a somewhat stronger case (not that I necessarily am in agreement with you on this) by attempting to advance an argument that the forum rules are not applied consistently, or fairly.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Folks, posting this here as it seems the correct section to leave ‘feedback’. Hoping other users can chime in if they think likewise.

When will there be accountability from moderators on MR forums? They will remove posts, send warnings, suspend and ban folks left, right and centre. And when they do - no explanation, locked conversations so that you cannot reply nor can you even start a conversation to ask or enquire.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason. Vague rules quoted even though in at least one case for me they did not apply whatsoever.

Do site owners review the performance of moderators?

I understand that they volunteer their time but this does not mean we forget quality, fairness or reason. Owners make a living from this site so I would like to think they care if people are being bullied by moderators.

I have kept this vague - not referring to a specific incident but I am fine with any of my personal incidents being referred to. I wonder how many others feel the same way and are treated the same way.

There is moderator accountability and oversight and that is handled by the administrators.

In my time here, what you have stated is not accurate, in regards to moderation action and the ability for a member to inquire for clarity or ask for administrator review.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

There is moderator accountability and oversight and that is handled by the administrators.

I had forgotten about the administrators, and that there was another layer - an oversight layer, with greater responsibility - among the staff; well done for drawing my (our?) attention to this.

In my time here, what you have stated is not accurate, in regards to moderation action and the ability for a member to inquire for clarity or ask for administrator review.

Agreed.

 

[justperry]

I do think there’s a problem here, moderation is inconsistent at best.
I also think it is a bit too strict.
Everything is politics now, you should be able to say for instance that TC is a hypocrite because of his donation yet you can’t.
Today I reported a post which was there since yesterday, no action was taken while other posters comments gets removed for litarally the same thing.

I would like it to see it a bit less strict, don’t go overboard with moderation, just allow it to be more like in normal daily conversations, politics and social issues are part of that, that’s a fact.
I got into a discussion with staff from MR, he agreed everything is politics nowadays, so as stated above, loosen up a bit.

 

[annk]

Today I reported a post which was there since yesterday, no action was taken while other posters comments gets removed for litarally the same thing.

When it looks like no action was taken, a few things can be in play.

One of the obvious ones has to do with time zones. We strive to include moderators from around the globe, but even when we manage to do so, it's a volunteer gig. Moderators spend the vast majority of the time they're on the site handling reports, but your report might not be at the top of the list. So what looks to you like "no action was taken" can simply mean that no moderator is awake and on the job for a few hours or that the list of reports is huge and they're getting to it.

Your post here about this was made a few hours after the moderation had been handled. You should have gotten the canned message that lets you know it was taken care of.

 

[justperry]

When it looks like no action was taken, a few things can be in play.

One of the obvious ones has to do with time zones. We strive to include moderators from around the globe, but even when we manage to do so, it's a volunteer gig. Moderators spend the vast majority of the time they're on the site handling reports, but your report might not be at the top of the list. So what looks to you like "no action was taken" can simply mean that no moderator is awake and on the job for a few hours or that the list of reports is huge and they're getting to it.

Your post here about this was made a few hours after the moderation had been handled. You should have gotten the canned message that lets you know it was taken care of.

Thank you for your reply.
I am aware of time zones, my above statement stands, I do think it’s better to be a bit less strict.
In a way I think Europeans handle this a bit better, you can talk about politics and social issues in a good way.
Stating facts should not be a reason to be suspended even if it’s political.

 

[M.Brane]

Stating facts should not be a reason to be suspended even if it’s political.

That all depends on who's facts your posting.

 

[justperry]

That all depends on who's facts your posting.

Facts are facts, as in 1+1=2, Trump is the President, ice is the frozen state of water.
I m not here to twist facts like some others do.

 

[bousozoku]

Thank you for your reply.
I am aware of time zones, my above statement stands, I do think it’s better to be a bit less strict.
In a way I think Europeans handle this a bit better, you can talk about politics and social issues in a good way.
Stating facts should not be a reason to be suspended even if it’s political.

I haven't been a moderator for quite a long time, but I've noticed that people will state facts that are not facts.

If you write something objectionable and it has nothing to do with the topic, it should be removed.

We all agreed to the rules when we joined. The staff looks at situations and discusses them when necessary to avoid mistakes. Should they overlook members who repeatedly violate the rules?

 

[facedmurkroots]

Should they overlook members who repeatedly violate the rules?

They should stop suspending, warning and banning members who don’t break the rules. Instead of falsely citing a rule and then refusing to personally explain their action and pointing you to a form where someone else has to defend their actions - and even then they often don’t. That’s the point of this post

 

[bousozoku]

They should stop suspending, warning and banning members who don’t break the rules. Instead of falsely citing a rule and then refusing to personally explain their action and pointing you to a form where someone else has to defend their actions - and even then they often don’t. That’s the point of this post

If they don't break the rules, they aren't suspended.

If your interpretation of a rule isn't the same, a moderator will explain it to you. If you still don't understand, you're probably in the wrong place.

 

[facedmurkroots]

If they don't break the rules, they aren't suspended.

If your interpretation of a rule isn't the same, a moderator will explain it to you. If you still don't understand, you're probably in the wrong place.

Yeah, in theory…. This is the point… They don’t break the rules… they get suspended. Try to understand that in reality, some unaccountable for their actions moderators are interpreting them wrong. although… not even. Just blatantly deleting posts and suspending people as they please with no need to explain it.

I won’t keep repeating it to you but the issue is this is what’s happening.

 

[I7guy]

Yeah, in theory…. This is the point… They don’t break the rules… they get suspended.

That is your contention or misunderstanding, which would be incorrect. Suspending and banning are the result of escalating rules infractions - notably the more serious ones.

Try to understand that in reality, some unaccountable for their actions moderators are interpreting them wrong.

Again, that is your contention. The moderation staff has been very stable and works as a team. It’s more possible you are not familiar with the rules than the moderators are interpreting them wrong.

although… not even. Just blatantly deleting posts and suspending people as they please with no need to explain it.

I can’t say this is incorrect with a 100% certainty, but there are times posts get deleted without a notification, for various reasons. It happens. For most post reports an action would result in a communication.

I won’t keep repeating it to you but the issue is this is what’s happening.

Throughout various threads over time the mods and admins have explained the process. If it’s your contention they are not moderating accurately then ask for moderation history to be shared. If you don’t believe Ben J’s moderation history overview was correctly interpreted, you are welcome to hold that opinion, but likely it won’t be helpful to you in deciding what is an acceptable post.

 

[Weaselboy]

Just blatantly deleting posts and suspending people as they please with no need to explain it.

This is incorrect. Since you waived your right to privacy in post #1, I can say you have been told twice to use the Contact Us link if you have questions about moderation. As of this post I see no record of you having done so.

Contact us

forums.macrumors.com

One of the site administrators will review your note and reply to you if you send in questions about moderation using that link.

 

[facedmurkroots]

That is your contention or misunderstanding, which would be incorrect. Suspending and banning are the result of escalating rules infractions - notably the more serious ones.

Again, that is your contention. The moderation staff has been very stable and works as a team. It’s more possible you are not familiar with the rules than the moderators are interpreting them wrong.

I can’t say this is incorrect with a 100% certainty, but there are times posts get deleted without a notification, for various reasons. It happens. For most post reports an action would result in a communication.

Throughout various threads over time the mods and admins have explained the process. If it’s your contention they are not moderating accurately then ask for moderation history to be shared. If you don’t believe Ben J’s moderation history overview was correctly interpreted, you are welcome to hold that opinion, but likely it won’t be helpful to you in deciding what is an acceptable post.

Back at you, really. Your views are equally your contention or misunderstanding, which would be ‘incorrect’. I’m glad to hear you haven’t had the same experience but plenty of users have. God knows how many may have even chimed into this very thread and had their posts removed and faced suspension.

I won’t go back and forth with you over this. But you’ve got your views and I’ve got mine on the matter.

 

[facedmurkroots]

This is incorrect. Since you waived your right to privacy in post #1, I can say you have been told twice to Use the Contact Us link if you have questions about moderation. As of this post I see no record of you having done so.

Contact us

forums.macrumors.com

One of the site administrators will review your note and reply to you if you send in questions about moderation using that link.

You’re literally one of the moderators who won’t justify, explain or discuss your actions with the users they affect. Case in point.

 

[xJustxMegx]

Moderators don't have to explain their actions in public, when you use the contact form you get a response with an explanation of why, at least from my experience.

 

[Weaselboy]

You’re literally one of the moderators who won’t justify, explain or discuss your actions with the users they affect. Case in point.

The idea is that if you have a disagreement with my moderation, you ask for a review by an uninvolved forum administrator. It would not make much sense for me to review and handle my own moderation complaints.

 

[I7guy]

Back at you, really. Your views are equally your contention or misunderstanding, which would be ‘incorrect’. I’m glad to hear you haven’t had the same experience but plenty of users have.

I don’t know whether you’re trying to stir the pot, have a misunderstanding of the way this site is operated, or have read the rules and don’t agree with them. Either way, imo, the way it’s being presented is combative which is almost never a catalyst for change.

God knows how many may have even chimed into this very thread and had their posts removed and faced suspension.

This is hyperbole. The site exists as a community or place for civil discussion about Apple and tech related items. Making it difficult on the one million plus members would have the opposite effect if building a user community who wants to participate.

I won’t go back and forth with you over this. But you’ve got your views and I’ve got mine on the matter.

Answer me or not, I don’t care. If you post in this thread expect someone can respond.