Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
yeah it was an unfriendly move on apple's part to disable the "hacked" phones but it was perfectly within their right to do so. it's not even like the update was pushed, and if you have enough technical knowledge to even know how to hack you should know that it voids warranties and cause damage, real or otherwise.

this isn't anything new, it's the battle hackers, tweaker, etc have been fighting for years, if anything we owe it to these companies for sharpening our skills. as many people have pointed out if that hadn't been the case we would have iphones to whine about.

that being said i wish apple would be friendlier, in stores and in a corporate sense, or at least try turn a blind eye. maybe jobs can convince at&t that they cant keep them out in the long-haul anyway.
 
yeah it was an unfriendly move on apple's part to disable the "hacked" phones but it was perfectly within their right to do so.
Just because they were perfectly within their right to do so (and I agree that it was) that does not make it a wise decision on their part. I think it will come back to haunt them unless they can turn it around to an advantage, like giving the $100 rebates made them look good. Apple has a way of doing that.
 
From Leo's Rant:

People agreed to the 2 year contract with AT&T. Along comes White-Hats who unlocked the iPhone. Apple even agreed that people don’t mind people using Apps on the iPhone. It’s legal to unlock any cell phone owned by you. Apple later warned that this could be damaging to the iPhone and said they would not support users. The iPhone 1.1.1 Update bricks the iPhone. It makes it unusable. You have a $400 paperweight.

It’s possible that technically there was no other way, but it’s highly unlikely that it was the case.

When you put protection on something. Music, Cell Phones, PDA’s…etc. When users buy something, it’s their property. They should be allowed to do whatever they want with it.

I understand from his Web site that this LaPorte fellow is a technology journalist; he has neither, from what I read of his biography, earned a JD nor is he an expert in common or statutory law (most law these days is statutory). But it does behoove him to do enough focused research in the area upon which he is reporting to write something sensible.

He doesn't understand the law. His opinion may be that people with "their property", they "should" be allowed to do with it as they wish. Statutory law in the United States doesn't uniformly support his opinion. You can't drive an automobile you own under the influence of drugs or alcohol -- in many states, not even on most private property; you can't discharge a firearm you own within city limits; you can't alter an FCC-approved device so that it operates in a manner not approved by the FCC or intended by the manufacturer (that last one has some relevance here). Of course most of these sorts of laws have to do with public safety, or if not public safety the safety of the individual who owns the property -- so-called "babysitter" or "mommy" laws, like seat belt laws for adults.

But within our law there are also statutes that restrict what we may do with our property although these restrictions have little or nothing to do with safety. Some of them make good sense -- for example, the laws that forbid my neighbor from messily overpowering and altering his *personally owned* shortwave radio so that he can broadcast a signal on reserved frequencies powerful enough for him to have conversations with space shuttle astronauts in orbit. Which also happens to knock out any legitimate short-range radio signal devices I use in my home. Other laws have been virtually written by corporate executives, passed over to well-paid lobbyists and been wiggled into our federal law, perhaps to the good of no one other than a single corporation or industry. But that doesn't mean the laws don't exist. They can be struck down, their scope can be narrowed by judicial interpretation, but they must first be challenged.

In the case of the iPhone, the right to unlock mobile phones, we're talking about part of DMCA. DMCA is a mushy gray mess, but for the sake of argument here, let's assume it's not. Let's assume it's an eminently valid, rock-solid piece of law to which no challenge will stand. You may unlock your cell phone. Moreover, you have the *right* to unlock your cell phone. But nowhere in DMCA is it expressed or implied that by downloading an *optional* software update and *willingly* loading it onto that mobile phone, and that piece of software does *intentionally* relock the phone, that your right to unlock has been violated. You have the right to unlock. You unlocked. You installed at your option software that relocked. Unlock again if you can, feel free; it is after all your right. But that right does not extend to compelling the manufacturer to support the phone if you alter it in a manner neither intended nor allowed by warranty terms. You can make a case that *intentionally* relocking phones with entirely *optional* software updates does not violate the letter of the law but its spirit. The spirit of the law is important. Problem in this case, there's no evidence -- in fact, from what I've read of so-called "bricking" of iPhonea, which is not "bricking" but just making them unusable on any network, therefore unable to be activated, therefore no other features work, yet the phone and its features are just fine -- the evidence is that unlocked iPhones to which people have applied the 1.1.1 firmware update *remain* unlocked. Apple didn't relock the iPhone. They just deactivated it, put some software in there to verify the baseband data complied with the intended, approved baseband data, checked for a valid AT&T SIM card, all criteria met in the positive: they then, perhaps, overwrote the baseband data with something more difficult to unlock in future, then definitely reactivated the iPhone. If that is the case, the iPhone relocking via firmware update is majestic in its serving its masters while complying with general property law and laws specific to mobile phones.

The law guarantees you the right to unlock a cell phone. Neither the spirit nor the letter of the law states they have to make it easy to do so or that you then have the right to use that unlocked phone on any network carrier you wish. Merely, you can unlock it. A wise person wishing to unlock against the manufacturer's and partner carrier's wishes would have unlocked and then declined to install the purely *optional* software update. But those who unlocked and then installed 1.1.1 are not only expecting a lawful right to unlock the iPhone, but they are expecting Apple be compelled by the same law establishing that right to *give you enhanced features for free* even though you performed an alteration to the device they *expressly* do not support.

I can't stop laughing. You want your rights to unlock your iPhone, the right not to be compelled to have a locked iPhone, yet you wish Apple, a lawful incorporated entity with its own rights, be compelled to support at their expense whatever the hell you wish to do with your iPhone. (Hold on, I need to catch my breath, I'm laughing so much.) That is the very summit of the highest peak in the looming range of hypocrisy.

As for native applications, originally Apple did specifically state their policy regarding third-party native applications was not to support them, not to promise warranty service for any damage caused by them, but to do nothing to intentionally break those applications -- basically, use at your own risk, which is about the same for any third-party applications installed on your computer. That has changed. Surely changed due to the fact that allowing direct manipulation of the iPhone and the installation of third-party native applications was the entree to the widespread -- over-reported by the developers of the unlocks, but still of more broad accessibility to the general pubic -- unlocking of iPhones. If you're upset you can't use third-party applications anymore, point your ire straight at the people who released the unlocking tools to the public.

LaPorte refers to those who devised the iPhone unlock as "White-Hats". I'm pleased to have learned something from him. Contrary to what I've always thought, "White-Hats" means morons who devised a very, very simple method to unlock an iPhone, a device that posed little challenge in unlocking, and like the foolhardy, reckless, self-centered egoists they are, they distributed that software and/or process to a somewhat or wholly unsuspecting public, interfering with lawful trade and a legitimate contract between to corporations.

Finally, I hate all these exclusive contract arrangements, too. Everything from mobile phones, to digital music and movies, to HD home video formats, to "bonus" compact disc material, down to even some brands of food for God's sake. Hate it, hate it, hate it. But our laws don't forbid it. It's trite, of course, but if you don't like the law, change it: vote people into state and federal legislatures who will write and enact consumer rights laws that will stop these things. Or, perhaps more readily and easily accomplished, stop buying from people who play the exclusivity game. Believe me, had years ago mobile phone carriers tried the, We'll sell you a $1,200 retail price phone for $29 if only you'll accept that phone is locked to our service and sign a contract with us, had we the consumer said, No thanks, I'll pay cash for the phone, try out your service without a contract, then move my unlocked phone to a competitor if you don't serve me well, today we would not have locked phones and contracts. (The matter of the iPhone being "unsubsidized" is irrelevant; Apple sells the iPhone at a particular price based on R&D, hard unit cost, overhead and whatever revenue arrangements they have with AT&T, how much they'd like to on it in profit, and examining the intestines of a gutted sheep. We can't speculate for how much they'd sell the iPhone without the AT&T contract. The hidden subsidy may be nothing, it may be $1,500, as they can price their products as they wish.)

I'm sure this LaPorte is a lovely guy, flag-bearer for the people and all that racket, but he has not a clue about what he speaks.
 
Not that you need me to tell you so Sanford, but, most eloquently put. Verbose but yet still very straight to the point. Nice!!! :apple:
 
Apple or the User that is a fault for bricking the phone?

LaPorte says that Apple is "causing" the iPhone to brick by design of the update.

My experience is that every time I update firmware (like my router) it says to not interrupt the process. I assume this is because the firmware would be partially updated and then you would not be able to reboot. Bricking the device.

I am not a firmware developer but I am a software developer and I have had code do some very weird stuff that I was not expecting. My point is, I believe that it is possible that Apple created the firmware update expecting to update the default firmware but had some unexpected things happen when the firmware had been hacked.

If this is the case, who is really to blame. Apple for not coding around all the hacks or the hacks that cause the update to fail.

I say it is the hacks. It should their responsibility to go back to factory settings before doing an update.
 
Tech journalists -- fueling consumer's sense of entitlement one podcast/story at a time. :rolleyes:

This is the very reason that my podcast list has been steadily shrinking over the past month or so. Listening to the podcasts Leo is a part of, he has steadily become more and more irritating on this very subject; just because you buy something doesn't mean you can modify it and then complain when the company releases a voluntary update that you then install and it breaks whatever modifications you've done. It's not up to Apple to "test" for this, and they certainly did not have to release a press statement before the update was released warning that this would happen. People ignored the warning, and are now in the boat they are in.

I haven't been following this too closely, but are the "bricks" simply because the person doesn't have an active AT&T sim (since they are using it on another network)? If you get an AT&T sim, does it start working? If so, then I don't really think that qualifies as "bricking" the phone...
 
One problem with arguments like this is, the iPhone warranty says nothing about unauthorized alterations to the operating system.
??? Okay. I'm going to copy and paste, and as you clarify what you meant, I'm going to go ahead and not comment any more about it.
This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (b) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire, earthquake or other external causes; (c) to damage caused by operating the product outside the permitted or intended uses described by Apple; (d) to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider (“AASP”); (e) to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple;
http://images.apple.com/legal/warranty/iphone.pdf

In any case, there are a lot of obvious non-programmers responding to this thread with ridiculous assertions.
Yes, ridiculous assertions like Apple should hunt down every hack solution that created an "unlock" scenario and test their update against it thoroughly, and determine whether they can gracefully "fail" in case the hacks put the phone in a state their upgrade is not designed to handle. --And there are programmers who aren't being listened to because the truth is too inconvenient for some to bare responsibility for.
Could Apple have made an update that did not brick any phone? Yes, quite easily. In fact, that's the way it should've been done. They could've reburned the modem software completely just to be safe, and also made sure that the normal bootstrapper always works.
"Simply"? Don't be silly. There's nothing "simply" about making sure damaged IMEI numbers are properly reset. Maybe when you file serial numbers off devices, Apple has a magic wand that "resets" them from the ether?

If you go around damaging your phone in order to have it perform in an "unlocked" capacity, look to those same people to help you if the latest firmware update causes problems. This is THE most braindead argument any responsible professional could make... that a software manufacturer is responsible for somehow working their upgrades around hacks to your product environment. The simple FACT that some unlock solutions DID NOT BRICK is evidence enough that they should have been cooperating with each other more, and that Apple should be investing more delays into reading tea leaves from IRC channels and secretive hacking organizations that ALL attempted to be VERY secretive about the solutions they came up with. There is MONEY on the table, this stuff isn't all just OUT THERE. If Apple tested against ONE, who's to say others would be exempt from problems?

That way, they didn't have to test any unlock methods (though clearly they did anyway).
Test, and warn. Mission accomplished in my book. Should be in yours too. Fools who know enough to DOWNLOAD the hacks, and then blightly IGNORE Apples warning, and IGNORE the warning on the firmware installer, and INSTALL the firmware update... come on, at what point did you lose free will here? Wow. Maybe Apple should give everyone a dollar when they stub their toe on their PowerMac Tower.

~ CB
 
+1




And the proof for this is...... ah yes. another non software person telling us how apple's OS SHOULD work. I'll toss that opinion in the circular filing bin thank you.




Sorry Leo. The intellectual proptery that makes up the OS is NOT YOURS. Get over it.




Not for me Leo. Mine just works fine.


I wonder if Leo complains when he uses other products in an unintended way?

Dear BMW, I put the oversized size tires on my car and ruined my shock absorbers. What? You won't honor your guarantee!!! Why do hate america and consumers BMW?



Sorry leo.

You hacked your phone, expect problems.


I suggest you buy an openmoko if you think your hacking "rights" outweighs apple's right to update software (by which _may_ zonk out the hacks you placed in there in the first place.)

I agree 100%.
 
I say it is the hacks. It should their responsibility to go back to factory settings before doing an update.
I think the truth is THEY CAN'T, and that's why we get tap dancing instead of answers. Blame instead of responsibility. As I said before, there is a LOT of money on the table for the iPhone unlock hack. Out of the different types of GSM phones out there, iPhone falls into the category that it is simply NOT designed to be unlocked. So, just as otherphones in this category require measures that even involve physically modifying the motherboard, the iPhone requires hackers to alter aspects of the phone that were never designed to be altered in such a way. Some went about it in certain ways, others went about it in other ways. Some unlocks brick your phone on a 1.1.1 update, others simply have the phone gracefully go back to its factory state. Apple can't run around holing round tables telling each of them how to not have their users brick the phone when they do an update they are warned not to, considering the phone was never designed to be unlocked in the first place!

At what point to users deserve the DOPESLAP of the year? Apple says, unlocking could cause irreparable damage to the phone, and updatingto 1.1.1 coul leave your phone permanently inoperable. They do not FORCE the update, that much has been made clear.... and YET, in the face of SO MUCH INFORMATION, people go and perform the update, and lo and behold, their phones don't work! I mean, what, do we need to start handing out Darwin awards or something? I really do not get why someone feels entitled to screw up their phone, and then expect an upgrade to work flawlessly. I've had MacOS installations give me headaches on install that lasted all weekend long, only to finally work flawlessly on a prestine, empty hard drive and clean install. 2 days before the firmware update, I restore my phone and blew away all my third party apps. My Mobile Finder, my Apache, my PHP, my Terminal, my Tap Tap Revolution, my NES (chock full of games, with my Mike Tyson's Punch Out saved games going really well). I'd just started getting into Mobile Money, and the To Do list was great. --But I blew it away, and prepared for the update (hoping they'll figure out how to hack into the system again).

Does that make me a genius? NO! It makes me a responsible and rational human being. To not have done the same, I'm not sure what it makes other people, but it doesn't have ANY bearing on Apple.

~ CB
 
People are mixing the issues!

Apple has every right to keep it closed. Should they keep it closed? No. But they have the right. They don't want to be warranting every little problem with the volume and display if there is 3rd party software on the phone, and I agree with that.

But here is the problem: The AMERICAN Cell Phone Industry. Compare it to that of Europe, or countries like Norway where the phone must be unlocked. Now the issue gets confusing... There are 2 forms of 'locked'.

Locked to the carrier is one thing. Locked out from SDK is another. Too many people are confusing this and blaming Apple.

Of all people, Laporte should know this. Suck it Leo.... I always thought his books gave lame advice.
 
Of all people, LaPorte should know this. Suck it Leo.... I always thought his books gave lame advice.

Industry pundits on this issue can gain publicity by coming out strongly pro or con. He came out con. Judging by the logic of his written arguments against Apple, he probably just flipped a coin.

To discuss rights, LaPorte has every right to be a self-aggrandizing fool. You have every right to ignore his The-Man-gawn-git-ya'll-down posturing. Note to Leo: it's a smartphone; you're not being compelled by local law to use a separate water fountain kept in a filthy state round back of the courthouse. My stars.
 
I've always been a huge fan of Leo and I listen to many of his podcasts, but his stance on this subject seems kind of ignorant and it's starting to annoy me.
Completely agree.

As you, I've been a fan of his and his TWiT podcasts. However, in this case I feel he is completely wrong. He deserves the brick that he has.

Apple warned folks of what might happen more than once. Anybody who went ahead and modified their iPhone knew what could happen. However now, they just don't want to accept the responsibility for bricking their iPhone and would rather blame Apple.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple, after a couple of more days, released exactly what you're talking about.

I would be. There are financial and legal concerns. The financial concerns being - developers cost hundreds of dollars per hour, an unbreaking an outside patch to their firmware is going to cost Apple a boatload of money. They're not interested in that.

Legally, I'm sure the question has also been asked - "If we fix the problem caused by iUnlock, are we then implying that we support and warranty their software?" No idea how serious a risk that is, but I'm sure it's crossed the minds of people in Cupertino.
 
Never heard of him...

He was better known a few years ago when the meme was to put in-depth technology journalism on radio and subscription television (cable, LEO satellite); he ever since has been struggling to find his niche since tech journalism belongs to the young, clean-cut, well-dressed CNN-style geek or geekette and the deep to stuff on radio and TV replaced by podcast an blog. The new meme being if you want in-depth rather than casual tech reporting you know how to seek it out. It's much of the John Dvorak age -- though not quite so ancient -- than he is of the Pete Rojas generation.

It's not surprising you've not heard of him. It's very possible years ago you did know him by name and have since forgotten all about him.
 
.....Put this issue in front of an adult American and he'll side with Apple on it.

I think you mean scott bourne

Also people should stop with the car analogies already....they'll never compare
 
People who buy iPhone. Indifferent.
People who buy iPhone and mod it. Indifferent.
People who buy iPhone, mod it, and then complain when it does not work.. Super Dumb.

Leo is clearly in the last group.

I would also condemn that last group for their horrible mis-use of all kinds of analogies throughout this who deal. The analogy police have never been busier than they have been for busting the super dumb analogies of the super dumb iPhone modder complainers.
 
Peace:

I am with you most of the way. But there is a problem in your scenario, just as in the situation you are analogizing. And that is Apple (or BMW) warning "owners that the upgrade could "brick" the onboard computer and gives them a few days to try and restore it to original specs" without enabling a pathway to officially do that restore.


Why should apple be required to do the work to unhack your phone. You hacked it in the first place, you can unhack it. Your position is entirely unreasonable. A fair warning was more than enough.
 
Of all people, Laporte should know this. Suck it Leo.... I always thought his books gave lame advice.

Posts like this really show how over the top and foamy-mouthed the iBots have become. Yelling at Leo Laporte? That's like being proud of punching a girl in the face. Leo is one of the most affable and genuinely kind and sympathetic people you will ever encounter. And I would put him right up there as a champion of The Macintosh Way (does anyone even remember that?) next to Guy Kawasaki, John Dvorak, and the late Douglas Adams.
 
I see a storm brewing on the iPhone horizon. And I'm with Leo.

People keep mentioning what Apple can and can't do legally in this whole thing. It doesn't matter ... just like you said, a storm is brewing .. people are not happy. Apple is going to get very bad press for this, and it will only get worse and worse.
 
One problem with arguments like this is, the iPhone warranty says nothing about unauthorized alterations to the operating system.

This is where a lot of people are making mistakes. Since the warranty is only for the iPhone hardware, they assume that covers the modifications. They talk about any modifications made to the device not just the hardware. You still void the warranty by making other modifications to the device.
 
(tiredly) Yes, they really should. It's a HARDWARE WARRANTY. All those sections are about HARDWARE. That's why they declare it's about HARDWARE in the first couple of paragraphs.

And there is NO SOFTWARE WARRANTY to violate.

If you want to look for some possible violations by modding, look to the Software License instead.

Cheers, Kev

PS. However, many points for at least reading the warranty!

The warranty is for the hardware. As I noted above, the modifications are not limited to just the hardware.

You can have a powertrain warranty on the car, yet you can make modifications to a car that would void your powertrain warranty.
 
??? Okay. I'm going to copy and paste, and as you clarify what you meant, I'm going to go ahead and not comment any more about it.

As you've hopefully read around enough to know by now, the iPhone warranty is for hardware only. There is no software warranty to violate.

Yes, ridiculous assertions like Apple should hunt down every hack solution that created an "unlock" scenario and test their update against it thoroughly,

Not at all. I've done firmware, drivers, you name it... and most especially, sophisticated update coding.

It would've been super easy for them to do a checksum and make sure the files are okay before going ahead. Any programmer knows what I mean.

Even Microsoft doesn't intentionally brick Windows Mobile phones that have been unlocked or modified. This was definitely intentional, because there were easy ways not to.

This is THE most braindead argument any responsible professional could make... that a software manufacturer is responsible for somehow working their upgrades around hacks to your product environment.

Wow. Then it's a really good thing you don't work in this profession.

To repeat: Apple could've very easily watched for phones that weren't correct, and STOP. Or... they could've easily updated / fixed the modem code since THEY HAVE THE KEY FOR SIGNING IT.

Feel free to discuss whether they have the "right" to brick or not. But no one can say there weren't easy ways around it.

(Senior engineer... started programming in 1964 at 11 years old. Seen it all. Twice. )
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.