LaPorte Rips Apple on Radio

[Cleverboy]

What I am saying that complete bricking is a bit too serious for Apple or BMW to not take some proactive steps to prevent that, especially in view of the FACT they KNOW it can happen. The Warning is NOT enough. If they are going to releaser something with such serious consequences, they need to.

The warning is MORE than enough. Let's be adults here if we can. If I distributed a piece of hardware with its own operating system and a whole nest of regulations and agreements, and said explicitly that my warranty doesn't cover unauthorized alterations to the operating system... there'd be some clear things I would be able to do, and clear things I would NOT. I can WARN users that alterations might cause problems, but due to the fact that I've released millions of my devices to MILLIONS of customers, I cannot test through every method I hunt down, and retest my new upgrade over and over until I can guarantee it won't cause problems to those users that elected to alter their firmware.

DID YOU KNOW?
Did you know that not EVERY unlock type bricks the iPhone? At least one of them has been reported to simply be "reset" so that the phone is now locked, and does not feature the munged IMEI number issue that some unlock hacks have shown. What does that mean? It means that there's a bunch of ways these unlocks could have gone, and some simply cause MORE issues Apple isn't responsible for working around.

It could be more simpler, and wishing Apple gave SUPPORT doesn't change the fact that Apple has said they will NOT support these types of hacks to the system. Part of my sympathizes with the fact that these guys were feeling around in the dark to unlock their phones, but it sounds like they goofed up. I would imagine that the different unlock camps should certainly talk and find out what the other did to NOT munge the system.

~ CB

 

[Peace]

Peace:

I am with you most of the way. But there is a problem in your scenario, just as in the situation you are analogizing. And that is Apple (or BMW) warning "owners that the upgrade could "brick" the onboard computer and gives them a few days to try and restore it to original specs" without enabling a pathway to officially do that restore.

That is not covered under the warranty.Why should BMW ( Apple ) be responsible for designing something that will fix a non-warranted product?

By that very admission (no matter how carefully worded), Apple/BMW KNOWS that there is a possibility of making an expensive piece of machinery a useless hunk of metal. (I am NOT going to argue intentional or not- we can agree it happens, right?) They know this is a result in a non-standard firmware.

That's why there's a user manual with default warnings about messing with the firmware.

What I am saying that complete bricking is a bit too serious for Apple or BMW to not take some proactive steps to prevent that, especially in view of the FACT they KNOW it can happen. The Warning is NOT enough. If they are going to releaser something with such serious consequences, they need to:

1) Either provide a "Back-Flash" to get the firmware back to normal;
or
2) Put a simple check in the upgrade firmware to checksum (or whatever, I am not a programmer!) to make sure the firmware is SAFELY upgradeable.


It is easy enough to do- try and install iTunes 6.0 on your computer. Won't work, will it? Why? Because Apples software CHECKS. How hard would it have been to do the same thing to 1.1.1? It would have been immaterial at all (again, I am NOT a programmer, but you can't tell me it would have cost any more than an hour or two of one programmers time).

That is exactly what Apple did with 1.1.1

When Apple releases something with such a huge, crippling potential, and when they offer no way to revert, Apple is definitely the villain. Apple sat by and said nothing for a month while this was all done- they wait until the unlock is installed on a large percent of their installed base, and then do not offer a cure- THAT is why they are a villain, and have mishandled this.

Apple already did that when the person bought the iPhone.It's called the warranty.They KNEW there was a new firmware coming.Why didn't THEY take steps to allow you to revert?.THEY did the hack not Apple.




What I'd like to know is why arn't people asking/blaming Ambrosia software ( or whoever designed the hack ).They KNEW there was a new firmware coming.Why didn't THEY take steps to allow you to revert?.THEY did the hack not Apple.PLEASE lay blame where it is due.

 

[plumbingandtech]

I've always liked Leo but he went too far this time.

Lets use a much better analogy..

You buy a brand new BMW.It has an onboard computer system that does what it advertises.Checks the air pressure.Gas mileage and other nifty stuff.

You drive it off the lot knowing about the warranty.It would be dumb to mess with the car because it's under warranty right?.

A non-BMW accredited auto repair shop starts advertising a new way to do other things in your new BMW.And it's available over the internet.You have to download it and install the new software in the built in chip in the car.It's an attractive deal because it does some things you wish the new BMW would do but doesn't.You go ahead and install it anyway knowing it will void the warranty on your new BMW.But you don't care because the attractiveness is so appealing.

2 months later the local dealership starts selling the same exact BMW for $1000 cheaper.Do you get mad? Yes because you think it should be the same price you paid.Oh well.BMW is nice enough to give you a gift certificate for $500 towards various accessories at the dealership.You accept it.

Now.

You've installed that cool software in the onboard chip on the BMW.Like I said knowing it would void your warranty.BMW finds out about this non accredited auto mechanic and decides it could hurt the auto.It decides to do a software upgrade to the BMW's and warns owners that the upgrade could "brick" the onboard computer and gives them a few days to try and restore it to original specs.
After waiting it asks owners to drive in ( plug in ) and get the new software.
you've decided that you want to take a chance and don't restore the software in the BMW and take it in anyway.The certified BMW mechanics install the new software and your car stops working.



Who's fault is that ?



Leo you're wrong...

Perfect. This is the perfect analogy and shows exactly why the people that have hacked can complain all they want but are definately on the wrong side of right, fair and rational of this subject.

 

[Cleverboy]

No, but I do hold them responsible for knowingly releasing software or firmware they KNOWINGLY released that destroys phones without PROVIDING A METHOD TO RESTORE THOSE PHONES BEFOREHAND. (Sorry, caps lock stuck, not meant to yell!)

They checked into some of the software, and saw that there might be issues, and warned users. You suggesting that they go back to the drawingboard, and make sure they design their update in a way that doesn't cause ANY problems for people that altered their system. I think that's ludicrous. They would have to install EACH of the unlocking solutions (in the various ways you procure them), and repeatedly TEST to make sure that the way THIS one unlocks, is covered by the install. I think that's ENTIRELY unreasonable. Seeing as how at least ONE of the unlocking programs did NOT brick your iPhone, it seems more likely that the software designers are the ones who need to warn users that they're UNSUPPORTED and UNAUTHORIZED hack, may have problems with future system upgrades, and to always WAIT before deciding to upgrade. Nature of the beast unfortunately.

~ CB

 

[plumbingandtech]

When Leo got all pissed and started calling his podcasts "netcasts", I sware, everytime I listen to TWIT now, it feels like I can hear him being petty. No one's going to change to "netcasts" Leo, you weren't that much of an influence. Don't keep getting so uptight about the small stuff.

Yes. It was his silliness during this time that I gave up alll hope for the guy and stopped respecting his opinion on any subject.

This iphone rant reinforces his ignorance IMO.

Good points in your post as well. Well said.

riginally Posted by carfac
No, but I do hold them responsible for knowingly releasing software or firmware they KNOWINGLY released that destroys phones without PROVIDING A METHOD TO RESTORE THOSE PHONES BEFOREHAND. (Sorry, caps lock stuck, not meant to yell!)

This just shows a complete ignorance of the process of making software.

Apple upgraded, optimized and fixed THEIR software. (you don't own the software as mentioned earlier.)

Apple did this buy installing NEW software over the OLD.

The OLD in this case was HACKED by people. That means among other things, some of the MILLIONS of lines of code have been changed and altered outside of apple's original design.

How in a right mind can someone say they KNOWINGLY did this? Unless you have evidence to the contrary, apple did the same thing that happens in the desktop version os OSX.

There is a program called "Candy Bar" that let's you change the icons on your desktop. It seems everytime apple did an update there a while back it would break, a new version of Candy Bar was then released to fix what the OSX update changed.


I ask you this...

Did Apple also KNOWINGLY destroy Candy Bar?

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

Or is it more likely that Candy Bar modified OS X in a non standard way and when apple updates the OS they reset certain parameters that Candy Bar hacked.

Which one is more likely the truth?

Good grief on a cheese biscuit.

 

[balamw]

I think the biggest problem with the iPhone is the fact that the hardware is sold at an unsubsidized price and with a (largely) unsibsidized plan.

If AT&T and Apple were offering the iPhone plan as $75/mo for 24 months and providing the hardware required to access the service for free, no one would be complaining as vocally as they are now. Or if the iPhone was still $499 and the plan was discounted to $40/mo as compared to other "similar" devices.

No one who hacks their cable or satellite box would expect to a) have their hacks survive a software upgrade 2) expect to get support from the manufacturer or service provider for a hacked device.

A phone should be able to run on any properly configured network.

By that definition, T-Mo would not qualify as they don't have the back-end servers to support Visual Voicemail. Thus, the network is not properly configured for iPhone.

Don't get me wrong. I think Apple could be doing much better to their customers and the support network. If nothing else I'd like to see simple/restricted third party apps supported via dashcode.

I will not consider buying an iPhone or iPod touch until the dust settles on this and similar issues, like the lack of calendar input on the touch. I'd love to have one of these devices, but am not willing to hack them to gain unsupported features.

B

 

[kdarling]

And the proof for this is...... ah yes. another non software person telling us how apple's OS SHOULD work. I'll toss that opinion in the circular filing bin thank you.

I'm sure someone will take apart the modem code. If it turns out that there was no technical reason to change it other than to prevent unlocking, Apple could be on thin ice if other pending unlock lawsuits go awry.

Therefore I suspect that Apple threw in at least one change to how the modem code worked (besides just taking out the security hole), to cover themselves.

As for preventing third party apps, no there was no technical reason for doing that. And I AM a highly regarded and experienced software person.

Dear BMW, I put the oversized size tires on my car and ruined my shock absorbers. What? You won't honor your guarantee!!! Why do hate america and consumers BMW?

Not a good example. Land Rover owners often do just that, and LR honors their warranty.

 

[RossoA]

Later I decide that I’d prefer to make cheese. You say that’s a violation of our agreement and kill my cow.

Slightly Off Topic: This made me laugh hysterically for some reason, I think it was the vision of seeing an Apple Exec walk up to some poor farmer with his only cow and shoot it so that it drops dead, and then coldly walk away.

On Topic: This is why I don't want to hack the iPhone, yes, I want iChat, yes, I would have preferred to have been on Vodafone, but hell, O2 is offering a nice internet package and Apple's apps will run much nicer when they come around to putting a software update on that will add iChat and sorts. I mean, come on, people are moaning about how long it's taking to get a software update out and blah blah blah, but unless you have tried working in that kind of environment, you wouldn't understand.

People have to understand that if you put your trust into a company to make your computer, portable music device, wireless internet and cellphone you should be happy with it.

I'm growing tired of hearing people complain about the same things and I have only been on this board a few months, I hate to think what the mods feel like.

 

[mpuck972]

Boy, I guess we know which thread all the iSheep and fanboys decided to reply to today!

 

[mrJnC]

More like, I bought a BMW, and put snow tires on it. BMW updates their engine computer, and suddenly the car does not start, the radio does not work, the wipers are dead, the lights do not come on- nothing.

Sounds like the BMW has i-drive. And it's functioning normally.

 

[kdarling]

If I distributed a piece of hardware with its own operating system and a whole nest of regulations and agreements, and said explicitly that my warranty doesn't cover unauthorized alterations to the operating system... there'd be some clear things I would be able to do, and clear things I would NOT.

One problem with arguments like this is, the iPhone warranty says nothing about unauthorized alterations to the operating system.

In any case, there are a lot of obvious non-programmers responding to this thread with ridiculous assertions.

Could Apple have made an update that did not brick any phone? Yes, quite easily. In fact, that's the way it should've been done. They could've reburned the modem software completely just to be safe, and also made sure that the normal bootstrapper always works.

That way, they didn't have to test any unlock methods (though clearly they did anyway).

 

[DonMega]

We don't know how to accept responsibility for our own actions.

I don't own an iPhone yet. I don't own one for the simple fact that it does not do what I want at this time and I'm not with at&t right now. I won't buy one until Apple adds the functionality/storage that I want in an iPhone.

That being said, if you bought an iPhone and it wasn't quite what you wanted or you wanted to use it with another provider, and you hacked it, you simply can't blame Apple or at&t. You, seemingly, made a conscious decision to do what you did. Apple created an update to fix some things and add some functionality to the iPhone. I really don't feel like they intentionally tried to "brick" any hacked iPhone.

 

[balamw]

Could Apple have made an update that did not brick any phone? Yes, quite easily. In fact, that's the way it should've been done. They could've reburned the modem software completely just to be safe, and also made sure that the normal bootstrapper always works.

This is not so clear.

I've had enough experience with using third party firmware on various devices to know that it's not always trivial to return to factory conditions, at least without opening the device. Many devices have multiple programmable devices and memory blocks and not all of them are externally accessible. e.g. the super-hackable Linksys WRT54G, if you run third party firmware and try to go back to the factory firmware with any non-standard stuff in the NVRAM you can end up with a brick, and this ain't Linksys' fault.

The only sure-fire way is to have external JTAG ports for all the devices that can be programmed inside the device, but that is very unlikely. Since, it would leave the iPhone quite vulnerable to "hackers".

B

 

[dharrison9]

Laporte has absolutely no leg to stand on here. I agree with a lot of the people in this thread: You cannot, against the terms of ownership and usage, modify a portion of the software and then expect Apple to, after giving you fair warning, fix it when it breaks. They warned people that 1.1.1 might break their iPhone, they maintained that they wanted a closed environment and they have the right to break it anyway. They own the OS in its entirety. If you modify it, against the terms of use no less, then you have no right to assume that Apple will not break your system, especially after they already warned you that they might break it.

This is all null and void anyway because Apple is (reportedly) taking back bricked units and swapping them out with new ones. This all because they are an evil corporation that wants to stop people breaking into a product they maintained was to be closed. Something they are in their full rights to do.

 

[MacAficionado]

O.k. a little perspective.

You buy an iPhone, there are terms and conditions of usage. You agree to the terms or you don't.

If you do not agree with the terms you can return an iPhone even if it is open. trust me and you have thirty days according to ATT's part of the deal.
Apple warns you plenty of the fact that it is required to have an ATT account to use the iPhone. It is in writing.

You do not like ATT, you DECIDE to modify your iPhone to work outside of the terms and conditions that Apple has imposed. Apple is not pointing a gun to your head to buy the iPhone.

No warranty covers damage due to YOU modifying a product. Tell me one that does? Maybe you can trick a manufacturer that you did not try to modify something but if they find out or are able to tell, you VOIDED your warranty.

Apple CANNOT take the iPhone into a path of updating and upgrading the device taking into account third party modifications YOU may have done. That would be Apple supporting third party hacks. Apple was decent enough to let everybody know that updating the iPhone, if it is modified, MAY cause irreparable damage to the iPhone. The disclaimer was on the update itself. You cannot miss it.

YOU DECIDED to take your iPhone and unlock it, you made the choice of voiding the warranty, using the path NOT provided by Apple to use the device. You instead took the path of the third party HACKERS in using your phone. Now, you have to wait for those hackers to fix your phone.

If there is anybody you should be mad at are the people who hacked your phone and did not tell you the risks. Because Apple always warned of unapproved hacks to your phone. There is nothing anybody can do, you were warned and you broke your license agreement. So stop bitching and buy another iPhone if you really want one. I hope that if you do, you do not do something as dumb as hacking it again.

Carry on!!!

 

[HLdan]

That whole blog from Laporte is ludicrous especially the example of the computer shopper being spied upon by the computer maker who is forcing you to use a specific ISP under a contract.
Amazing how he conveniently forgot that Microsoft does this practice to their Windows customers already.
Anytime you connect to the internet and download new software from Microsoft the company checks to see if you are using a Windows Genuine Advantage version of Windows and if not they will not allow you to download and install their stupid software.
Thankfully I use a Mac but if I had a tenth of a percent of how many people are using cracked versions of their Windows OS I would be richer than Bill Gates.

 

[w0ngbr4d]

One problem with arguments like this is, the iPhone warranty says nothing about unauthorized alterations to the operating system.

From the iPhone warranty:
EXCLUSIONS AND LIMITATIONS
...(d) to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider (“AASP”); (e) to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple...

You might be able to argue with (d) about the damage the unlocks/third party apps did to the phone. Not that it matters much, because installing unlocks/third party apps violated (e). Boom...no warranty.

People should really start reading the fine print...

 

[kdarling]

From the iPhone warranty:
(snip)
People should really start reading the fine print...

(tiredly) Yes, they really should. It's a HARDWARE WARRANTY. All those sections are about HARDWARE. That's why they declare it's about HARDWARE in the first couple of paragraphs.

And there is NO SOFTWARE WARRANTY to violate.

If you want to look for some possible violations by modding, look to the Software License instead.

Cheers, Kev

PS. However, many points for at least reading the warranty!

 

[aristobrat]

(tiredly) Yes, they really should. It's a HARDWARE WARRANTY. All those sections are about HARDWARE. That's why they declare it's about HARDWARE in the first couple of paragraphs.

And there is NO SOFTWARE WARRANTY to violate.

Interesting. So Apple appears to offer no warranty towards the software on the device. So if you have an iPhone with 100% A-OK hardware, but the software is hosed, they really aren't obligated to help?

 

[w0ngbr4d]

I missed the portion where it excludes the software. Good catch. I guess I need to read the fine print even closer.

Then people should read the SLA:
(c) Except as and only to the extent permitted by applicable law, or by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components included with the iPhone Software, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, or create derivative works of the iPhone Software, iPhone Software Updates, or any part thereof. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the iPhone Software and iPhone Software Updates. If you breach this restriction, you may be subject to prosecution and damages.

Basically it comes down to this:
You bought the product knowing the requirements.
You modded the product knowing of the possible consequences.
You were warned that the update will cause problems.
You still applied the update.

No room to stand on to demand anything. The only real problem is trying to explain a SLA to someone who bought a unlocked iPhone on ebay who has no clue what "unlocked" means except for the fact that they can use it on T-Mobile.

In any case, it will be interesting how this will turn out.

 

[w0ngbr4d]

Interesting. So Apple appears to offer no warranty towards the software on the device. So if you have an iPhone with 100% A-OK hardware, but the software is hosed, they really aren't obligated to help?

The warranty is "AS IS". What is even more interesting is the following line: SHOULD THE iPHONE SOFTWARE OR iPHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

The caps are from the PDF.

I'm sure the iPod touch warranty is the same. I sure as hell wouldn't be paying a dime if their update borked my unmodded touch.

 

[kdarling]

Basically it comes down to this:
You bought the product knowing the requirements.
You modded the product knowing of the possible consequences.
You were warned that the update will cause problems.
You still applied the update.

No room to stand on to demand anything. (snip)

Well, there's where it gets interesting. As it also says, some states don't allow a company to say that warnings are valid reasons to refuse service. Attorneys General in the northeast just love to sue such businesses over squirmy wording. Not because it's the right thing to do, but because they love the easy money

Apple knows this. That's why they bent over backwards to claim that they weren't doing any bricking on purpose. Which everyone knows is BS. And I think a judge would recognize it as well. Too much publicity about the unlocking / third party apps for Apple to wiggle out of this one. My opinion of course.

I almost think Apple hopes someone will take them to court and force them and ATT to unlock. What a slick way to get out of a contract.

 

[kdarling]

The warranty is "AS IS". What is even more interesting is the following line: SHOULD THE iPHONE SOFTWARE OR iPHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

Yes, that's my favorite line.

So even if you don't hack your phone, Apple still claims no responsibility if their own code or updates are defective.

 

[gr8tfly]

You buy an iPhone, there are terms and conditions of usage. You agree to the terms or you don't.

If you do not agree with the terms you can return an iPhone even if it is open. trust me and you have thirty days according to ATT's part of the deal.
Apple warns you plenty of the fact that it is required to have an ATT account to use the iPhone. It is in writing.

You do not like ATT, you DECIDE to modify your iPhone to work outside of the terms and conditions that Apple has imposed. Apple is not pointing a gun to your head to buy the iPhone.

+1

It clearly states ON THE BOX:

Requirements: Minimum new two-year wireless service plan with AT&T required to activate all iPhone features, including iPod features.....

If a customer doesn't intend on meeting the requirements and still buys the product, they're on their own. At least, in this case, Apple provided some heads up in advance of an update. Given there is no public SDK for the iPhone, Apple actually did more than they needed by testing unsupported unlock hacks with the update. They could have just as easily ignored all 3rd party software and completed testing on only factory configurations.

 

[MacMan93]

As for preventing third party apps, no there was no technical reason for doing that. And I AM a highly regarded and experienced software person.

I have a feeling Apple didn't really "block" 3rd Party Apps. When udated with 3rd Party Apps they were still on the phone. Just not showing up on the springboard.

I'm thinking the update replaced one of the .plist for the icons to be shown thus making the 3rd party ones disapear.

It may be that all you would need to do is modify the file to make it show the icons and the programs may possibly still work....but heres the kicker.

Apple fixed the hole that was used to Jailbreak the phone. So you can't get access to the phones files to modify anything. Once there is another "Jailbreak" type of thing I have a feeling it will be pretty smooth from there. (Minus the unlocking)

I'm staying at 1.02 until the dust settles because I am not sure if my phone will be able to be activated when I update. I am using 3rd Party apps but NEVER unlocked it. The thing is I am using the unofficial Go-Phone/Payasyou go plan(NOT the iPhone one...the regular Go-Phone service) The details are unclear on how iTunes handles that.(Since I AM using ATT but NOT an iPhone plan)