Since you're under 18 and in the US that consent form you signed shouldn't be valid unless your parents also signed it. If you have no other choice I'd fight that.
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Laptop seized, what to do?
- Thread starter cjpadlock
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Since you're under 18 and in the US that consent form you signed shouldn't be valid unless your parents also signed it. If you have no other choice I'd fight that.
It is kind of odd, they should be able to image the drive and return the laptop without affecting the integrity of the evidence. Maybe they're reluctant to let it go because they don't have another Mac on hand to easily open/present the incriminating bits?
Since it sounds like a death threat, according to the OP, forensics will look much deeper than just the HD to find evidence.
Fingerprints and other such items come to mind.
And as someone else mentioned items such as the MAC address.
If it is a part of the evidence, it will need to be kept through the trial.
Yes, crap happens in the real world but that doesn't make this right. No, begging online is not a good idea, I think he was just trying to think of ideas to get his laptop back. I don't condone doing that and he probably understands that now. And let's not dilute the point here - yes there are people in the world going without the necessities of life, but that doesn't make it ok that the OP's laptop, for which he worked hard, was taken away. And no, I'm not 16. Are you?Yeah so begging online for strangers to buy him a replacement is the logical solution.Are you 16 too? He may not be rich, but spoiled is definitely relative. It is ridiculous for people to think that just because something has happened to their possessions that they cant learn to do with out until they can afford to replace it themselves or some other more ethical form of action besides calling for an online "charity" pity party. He still has a pc to type on, which puts him well ahead of most people. Its funny to me that the most tragic event in some of you alls lives is that you are laptopless...boo hoo. There are people going without the REAL basics like food , clothes, and shelter. As a young person he needs to learn how to cope, soon he will be an adult and crap happens you take it in stride and since he isnt rich there will be plenty of times he will be without as an adult and he needs to learn to live with it and fix it by his own volition instead of begging. Bottom line is a laptop is not a necessity. If he wants another laptop and doesnt want to pursue legal action against his friends family get out in the neighborhood and mow some lawns, walk some dogs, do some baby sitting, wash some cars...
No on ever said what happened to him was right, at least I didnt. I just have a problem with people thinking all they have to do is come online to beg, which you seem to agree. So whats the problem?
Jumping in here... fingerprints and such would be a valid reason for the prosecutor hanging on to the laptop, although I think the OP's parents should talk to the prosecutor to see whether there is any way of returning the computer sooner. Prosecutors are people too, and while the state's interest in a successful prosecution is always going to come first, the prosecutor would hopefully understand that it's a major loss to lose one's computer for two years just because someone who borrowed it ended up using the computer to commit a crime!
An analogy: if a murder takes place in a night club, the police will not shut down the night club for two years to preserve the evidence until the case comes to trial. They'll just shut the place down for a week or so, collect everything they can, take copious photos, and then return the premises to the owner. Granted, that's an issue of real estate rather than personal property, but it does show that the state makes some reasonable concessions to the fact that innocent people need their property back! At the very least, I'm guessing they'll at least listen to what the OP's parents have to say.
While it was stupid to lend your laptop to anyone, even your best friend, you do not deserve to have your laptop, that you probably worked your butt off to earn money for (I know I did to get mine), taken by the police for 2 years. Definitely have your parents talk to the police. I'm sure some sort of agreement can be made.
While I think you should get your laptop back, I also hope that you learned a huge lesson.
While I think you should get your laptop back, I also hope that you learned a huge lesson.
Likely it will be kept until the appeals process or all the guilty plea sentencing is done.
The MAC address is quite important, since they will be able to physically show the device in front of a jury that was used to make the threat. And that can be quite important.
It is basically the gun/pen/etc. used to make a threat.
The defense will likely try to get the case tossed if they dispose of such a critical piece of evidence, especially when the prosecutors had it in their hands.
The family will likely also try to get any small claims case against them tossed on the basis that the computer was willingly given/signed over to the police as evidence.
Might find it a case of being SOL, and lucky that the OP is not facing a criminal trial along with everyone else. A couple/few $k's to walk away from that stink is cheap -- especially since they could easily have lied and said it was the OP.
And, um, what's the knowledge or experience on which you base your prediction?
The defense might try, but whether they'd succeed is another matter. An image of the hard drive, photos of the computer and its components, and lifted fingerprints would be no less damning than the computer itself, and not too different from the evidence that would be available in, for example, a home burglary case.
As for the gun comparison, yeah, it's the instrumentality used to commit the offense, but waving around a Macbook in the courtroom is far less impressive than waving around a gun. If the threat letter had been written with a pen, would the prosecutors insist on waving around the pen in the courtroom?
This is something where I could imagine a nice guy in the DA's office releasing the computer after a few months, when they're sure they've gotten everything they need in terms of photos, disk images, etc. True, there's also a good chance that the OP and his parents would walk away empty-handed. But there's no harm in asking.
It doesn't sound like the OP wants to sue his best friend, so this is a moot issue.
Is it really an opportunity to "walk away from the stink?" Either way, the OP's best friend used the OP's computer to make an illegal threat. There's no way to erase the OP's connection (however tenuous) to the "stink" of the threat. It's just a question of whether the OP gets his computer back or not.
It is a key piece of evidence in a possible criminal trial, and it isn't stolen property that needs to be returned to the owner -- it was willingly signed over as evidence.
If it sees the light of day before the case is settled, I'd be surprised.
I think we are all three in agreement as far as evidence.
The question will be, how long will they keep it. I am leaning towards Sun Baked's idea that it will be kept through the appeals process if there is one.
If they loose the chain of custody, which definitely will happen if they return the MB to the owner, then they cannot go back to the laptop at a future time to see if there is any evidence that they missed. Since a MAC address can be spoofed, this makes it important to have the actual laptop for inspection/demo..
This situation reminds me of another situation that happened to a friend of mine who owned a nice home that he rented out. The renters converted it to a Crack Cocaine house. Of course DEA seized the house. In this case he was luck because he got it back within a few months -- about 6 if I remember. All the while he had to still pay the mortgage and taxes. He felt lucky that he got it back so quick. He knew of a fellow who had his property seized for well over 2 years.
So who knows. My bet is that it will be kept until the trial and appeal(s) are over.
I agree, although it appears that SunBaked and I have different ideas about whether the prosecutor would find it absolutely necessary to have the actual laptop at trial.
I seriously doubt that the police and prosecutor would have a good reason to hang onto the laptop after the jury has rendered its verdict (except for the usual bureaucratic delays). Once the jury has rendered its verdict, the facts of the case are established. The appeal assumes those facts are accurate and deals only with questions of law (e.g., whether the investigation and trial adhered to appropriate constitutional standards), unless the appeal is based on newly discovered evidence.
As for an appeal based on newly discovered evidence:
- From the prosecution's perspective: There is no reason for the police to hang on to the laptop afterward to see if they missed anything -- because (1) the prosecution has no right to appeal a "not guilty" verdict, and (2) double jeopardy would bar them from filing a new charges unless it was for something totally unrelated to the teacher threat case.
- From the defense perspective: Appeals based on newly discovered evidence generally have to be based on something that was not reasonably discoverable at the time of the trial. As long as they had reasonable access to the laptop prior to trial, my guess is that it would be hard to establish that anything that was accessible on the laptop met this standard.
So, I think the prosecutor is likely to hang on to the laptop until a little after the trial. Nevertheless, I think it is possible that the OP's parents could convince the prosecutor to be a nice guy and return the laptop before then, after the forensics people have thoroughly analyzed it.
Yikes. Drug cases are a special kind of craziness, though. For instance, if your car is used in a drug crime, the government can go through a civil process to permanently seize it and then sell it at auction.
shock value is usually really funny, but if you've ever seen the subway episode of southpark, you'd know that it's gonna be 17 years before you can make that joke again. poor taste.
That's exactly what I would do - either have the parents buy it or have the parents force the kid to buy it.
Don't worry, they take their time. I would ask for them to remove the hard drive and to give the rest of the compuer back to the OP.
Well, that sure does sound simple. BUT...if the parents say "no"....what then? Take 'em to court? Attorney's fees will be more than the cost of the laptop. Small claims court? All they have to do is appeal the small claims court judgement and it goes to state or district court - and we're back to the attornies again. And that's assuming that a Small Claims court judge would even hear a civil matter that was part of an ongoing criminal case.
The computer is a key piece of evidence in the courtroom, without it they cannot put the OP on the stand claim to ownership of the computer, and point to the person they loaned in to.
How many people would be able to look at a factory HD and say, yep that is mine?
Sort of interesting to notice that they took Bobby Cutts' laptop, wireless router, and cable modem. Seems they didn't want to miss any of the electronic fingerprints.
Should be interesting to see if the state handles it, or it gets kicked over to the federal level for charges.
They don't need to have the OP identify it to validate the chain of custody. They could just do something along the lines of the following*:
* Note: Some details of the litany below may be incorrect, as my recall of the rules of evidence for this are a bit fuzzy and the rules probably differ from state to state anyway. But the basic idea is still the same.
Prosecutor: The state now calls Dr. John Doe.
[Expert is sworn]
Prosecutor: Can you please state your name and occupation?
Expert: John Doe, Computer Forensics Analyst for the state.
[Bla bla bla, expert explains his qualifications]
[Prosecutor pulls out hard drive]
Prosecutor: Dr. Doe, I am placing a piece of computer equipment in front of you. Do you recognize this equipment?
Expert: Yes, it is the hard drive from Mr. Cutts' laptop.
Prosecutor: How do you recognize it as such?
Expert: The serial number is 9-9-0-6-9-4-7-X-B-7-1. [for Blade Runner fans: Not fish! Snake scale!] In addition, it contains the marking, JD, which I made on the exterior of the hard drive after obtaining Mr. Cutts' laptop from Officer Schmo and removing the hard drive. [Note: this probably requires that Officer Schmo testified earlier about getting the laptop from Cutts, checking it into the evidence locker, and then removing it to give to the expert]
Prosecutor: What if anything did you do to analyze this hard drive?
[and so on...]
[roll the dice and point to a group of stupid students]
Read his school paper, he admits to being one of the group that sent the fake e-mails to teachers using fake send -- though denies sending the threats.
When you know it was being used for illegal purposes, you are not getting the machine back. At this point the machine AND you become integral parts of the trial.
You loan it out, participate in some of the activities, and get suspended for five days -- if it ends there with a loss of the machine -- you got what you deserve.
I wouldn't help out with a charity drive for replacing the machine, and I doubt the mods would let it move forward either.
Threaten not only the teacher, but her daughter.
You friend may be lucky if she only spends 4 months in prison or gets a few years probation, some of the students with less than credible threats have been jailed in youth facilities until they turn 21.
[/roll the dice and point to a group of stupid students]
Edit: I hope I got the wrong set of idiots. Unfortunately all the hints lead to one group.
This is good advice. There are other options open to you, most of which realistically would require you to hire a lawyer. Most jurisdictions have statutes or rules that provide for the return of evidence, subject to reasonable restrictions to ensure its availability in the criminal proceeding. For example, in the US Federal Courts, Rule 41 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure allows for the filing of a "Motion to Return Property," subject to certain restrictions.
So, if you really want that laptop back, go talk to the prosecutor or hire a lawyer. Seems like talking to the prosecutor is easier. Just be polite and realize he or she will have a different perspective than you, and different motivations.
It hasn't been said yet, but I think the real problem here is the FUD around this whole issue. At the risk of sounding cliche, "back in high school in the 80s..." (ahah) this kind of thing would have gotten you suspended and/or your butt whomped by a large wooden paddle. Yes we all did a lot of stupid things as kids (<raises hand> a model rocket full of gunpowder and a weak engine doesn't go up very far before it explodes), but our society needs to get over the fear and realize kids do stupid things and it isn't always "real." Yes some nutjob will go off and play shooting gallery with his classmates (or copy cat), but I wager most threats are really just pranks and not seriously executed. How many of us want to make jokes or poke fun of airport security? See the context before we call in the mounties.
This level of "oh no oh no" seriousness for a foolish prank is totally overkill.
Sending threats to the principal (especially not from a public computer) is foolish, but not near as bad as shooting at a passing police car (a family friend's idiot son did this...i felt so bad for her) or other actual assults/tortue. Time to get our levels of severity straight.
I'm done now turning this into a soapbox on the snowballing fear in our society. Hope you get your mac back and stick by your friends you know to be true, everyone screws up (otherwise we'd never learn).
This level of "oh no oh no" seriousness for a foolish prank is totally overkill.
Sending threats to the principal (especially not from a public computer) is foolish, but not near as bad as shooting at a passing police car (a family friend's idiot son did this...i felt so bad for her) or other actual assults/tortue. Time to get our levels of severity straight.
I'm done now turning this into a soapbox on the snowballing fear in our society. Hope you get your mac back and stick by your friends you know to be true, everyone screws up (otherwise we'd never learn).
Not having read anything about him or his school outside of this discussion, I wouldn't know where to start to find the OP's school paper. But if he was involved in sending fake e-mails, then I agree that the situation is significantly different from him merely being an innocent lender.
That said, if he was involved in illegal activity, then that fact doesn't change the significance of the computer for the trial, nor does it obligate him to testify. It just means that there's basically no chance that the prosecutor will do the OP the favor of giving it back to him before the verdict is rendered, and -- depending on the particular facts -- might mean that the prosecutor is considering charging him as an accomplice.
In any case, it sounds like he should probably avoid posting about his involvement or experience online, and not be overly chatty with his school paper about the whole thing.