Latest Mac OS X 10.5.6 Seed; Rosetta Becomes Optional in Snow Leopard?

[Eric S.]

Apple is expected to release Mac OS X 10.5.6 in the near future.

Get ready for a zillion inane "the update is XXX MB on my system" posts.

Everyone brace for the PPC owner backlash in this thread...

Again. Seriously, haven't we been through all the arguments two or three times in the past six months?

If they drop PPC in 10.6 I hope they still provide software updates for 10.5.

I expect Apple will behave as it has in the past: once the new version is released, we will get only "security updates" for the old OS.

I think it's great for Apple to drop PPC support.

Let me guess, you don't own any PPC Macs, right? It's always OK when someone else's technology is abandoned. But as many owners of Firewire devices recently discovered, next time Apple may come after your technology. Most of the arguments advanced as to why PPC systems won't benefit from 10.6 apply equally well to early Intel machines too.

Personally I don't care (much) about Apple dropping PPC support in 10.6. What does bother me is Apple's increasing indifference to the wishes of its installed base of computer users, and the relegation of its computer products to a status secondary to its consumer electronics business.

(Even my iBook (G3) from 2001 is still useful even though it is quite slow and can't use Leopard. It is the most stable computer I've ever worked with, Mac or PC.)

Really? Of all the Macs I've owned over the years, the iBook G3 was the only one that went belly-up to the extent that it was not even worth it to repair - and that was after I had shipped it off once already for a new logic board.

 

[alexbates]

I hope Snow Leopard is also going to be considered "revolutionary" like Leopard was when it came out. I can see some major improvements coming in the Finder and how the operating system is structured itself. I think the Finder can use a better design. It has looked almost exactly the same for a long time. Since it has been rumored to be written in cocoa, I know there's something big coming. I think the operating system will be modifyed so Mac's will have faster boot times and require less memory to run.

 

[KindredMAC]

I hope Snow Leopard is also going to be considered "revolutionary" like Leopard was when it came out. I can see some major improvements coming in the Finder and how the operating system is structured itself. I think the Finder can use a better design. It has looked almost exactly the same for a long time. Since it has been rumored to be written in cocoa, I know there's something big coming. I think the operating system will be modifyed so Mac's will have faster boot times and require less memory to run.

Don't expect to "see" much according to all of the reports unless you consider seeing smaller app sizes in the GET INFO window "Seeing" something.

Snow Leopard is suppose to be a rewrite to make the system leaner and meaner. Apple's already going to get crap for this they don't need to release break through features also and anger more people.

 

[Eric S.]

I hope Snow Leopard is also going to be considered "revolutionary" like Leopard was when it came out. I can see some major improvements coming in the Finder and how the operating system is structured itself. I think the Finder can use a better design. It has looked almost exactly the same for a long time. Since it has been rumored to be written in cocoa, I know there's something big coming. I think the operating system will be modifyed so Mac's will have faster boot times and require less memory to run.

Well, then PPC owners really will be screaming!

 

[yojitani]

I really hope that there are some fixes for spaces here. I'd like to have MS Word work properly, but that is apparently up to apple.

 

[SkyBell]

I guess I'm going to have to grumble a little bit.

I can see 10.7 having no PPC support, that seems fair. But 10.6, why not have it? I think Apple is rushing too fast, give a few years before you ditch us lowly PPC owners.

I forsee 10.7 coming out around 2011. Five years after PPC. That seems like a good time to ditch it, but 2009 is a little early in my book.

Also, it seems the number one argument for getting rid of PPC is "You guys aren't missing out on any new features, they're just streamlining Leopard."

Oh, so you're saying Intel owners get the new, fast and improved version of OS X, while us PPC owners should get stuck with the slow and unreliable version? Hmm yeah, that makes perfect sense.

 

[Anonymous Freak]

And yes I am pissed about the lack of PPC support for Snow Leopard. Every Mac I have ever owned has been able to upgrade at least TWICE in the OS dept.

Yes, being 'locked out' sucks. But it's not like this is the first time Apple has done this.

When 10.5 came out, they locked out the 800 MHz G4s, some of which (iBook G4) were less than two years old. (In fact, the first generation of iBook G4 can only run 10.3 or 10.4, same basic range as your G5.) When 10.0 came out, they locked out everything before the G3, with system less than 3 years old being excluded. When 8.5 came out, they killed off 68k, where the PowerBook 190 had only been discontinued for two years.

Apple is known for doing this.

The potential abandonment of Rosetta is much more worrying. I may not run PPC-native software often, but I do still run some. (For example, I still run an old copy of QuickBooks.) They let Classic live for a very long time; it's worrying to see PPC-compatibility die so quickly.

 

[smartalic34]

Oh, so you're saying Intel owners get the new, fast and improved version of OS X, while us PPC owners should get stuck with the slow and unreliable version? Hmm yeah, that makes perfect sense.

10.5 Leopard is very reliable and will be rock solid by the time 10.5.9 rolls around. Snow Leopard is not just streamlining code, but mainly optimizing the code for multi-core processors. eve if Apple made snow leopard for PPC available, there wouldnt be as much improvement (except for the G5). as a G4 owner myself (eMac) I know that there isnt much 10.6 can offer that machine, save for a few GB of extra hard drive space. if you have a quad G5, complain. G4... theres nothing new for you anyway...

 

[Catfish_Man]

The main potential advantage I can see to not having Rosetta is it would allow not installing the PPC side of various things. I'd be sorta surprised if they actually did that though... I really need to get around to installing 10A222; been busy with other things.

 

[merlin]

Optional Rosetta, etc.

Humm, I'm not sure I'm understanding this. Does this mean that I'll be able to run some OS 9.x like I'm doing now via Classic in Tiger? This is the only issue that is preventing me from getting one of the new Intel Macs. I've got one program that I MUST use & it's not been & never will be ported to OS-X.

Thanks to anyone with the answer to this!

 

[Hugh]

Humm, I'm not sure I'm understanding this. Does this mean that I'll be able to run some OS 9.x like I'm doing now via Classic in Tiger? This is the only issue that is preventing me from getting one of the new Intel Macs. I've got one program that I MUST use & it's not been & never will be ported to OS-X.

Thanks to anyone with the answer to this!

No, this isn't classic. This allows you to run PowerPC apps written for Mac OS X to run on Intel machines.

Hugh

 

[Eric S.]

When 10.5 came out, they locked out the 800 MHz G4s, some of which (iBook G4) were less than two years old.

There are easy workarounds for the below-867 MHz G4's (and some people have shown that 10.5 has OK performance on G4's as slow as 400 MHz). What they also did in 10.5, for no real technical reason, was kill off Classic mode. Unfortunately, the only alternative is a hack like SheepShaver.

10.5 Leopard is very reliable and will be rock solid by the time 10.5.9 rolls around. Snow Leopard is not just streamlining code, but mainly optimizing the code for multi-core processors. eve if Apple made snow leopard for PPC available, there wouldnt be as much improvement (except for the G5). as a G4 owner myself (eMac) I know that there isnt much 10.6 can offer that machine, save for a few GB of extra hard drive space. if you have a quad G5, complain. G4... theres nothing new for you anyway...

But let's emphasize the multi in multi-core. IMO dual-core systems won't see much, if any, improvement from 10.6's new development. Which means that today's Macbooks and iMacs will be left in the dust too, with 10.6 really aimed at Mac Pros and future quad (and above)-core systems.

 

[chuckiej]

Really I just wish all the whinney PPC users would just roll over and drop out of the Mac sceen. Apple should have dropped PPC support years ago after intel hardware doubled real world performance. That doesn't mean not to support PPC on a stable version of OS/X but to simple not to support development for future revisions.

Frankly continued PPC support is a waste of good money!



Dave

Because PPC owners are the ones who bought the initial iPods and iMacs that made Apple what it is today. As soon as I can I will replace my powerbook with an MBP but then I will still have a G4 Mac mini and a quicksilver G4 tower that I won't be able to afford to upgrade for sometime after that. That's why! I can't upgrade all 3.

 

[doubleusn]

Hmmm

Hi

I am probably way off but when I read this "This news comes shortly after that IBM had purchased Transitive..." all I could think about was.

Steve Jobs: IBM ...Papermaster is not the droid(s) you're looking for, send him to me.

Cheers
-wsn

Last week Apple seeded developers with Build 9G52 of Mac OS X 10.5.6. The latest seeds ask developers to continue testing Mobile Me syncing and Mail character sets and continues to list a number of fixes from previous versions. Apple is expected to release Mac OS X 10.5.6 in the near future.

HMBT.org also publishes seed notes from the latest Snow Leopard build (10A222) which was also released to developers last week. The newest seed offers new additions to Grand Central, which provides developers an easier way to harness the power of multiple processor cores.

Separately, we've heard that the newest version of Snow Leopard makes Rosetta an optional installation. Rosetta is Apple's PowerPC emulator for their Intel Macs, allowing Intel Mac owners to run legacy software that has not been upgraded for the Intel platform. This news comes shortly after an announcement that IBM had purchased Transitive, the company behind Rosetta's technology. The final release of Snow Leopard is also rumored to require an Intel Mac, thereby being the first version of Mac OS X to drop PowerPC support.

Apple first announced its transition from PowerPC to Intel processors in June, 2005.

Article Link: Latest Mac OS X 10.5.6 Seed; Rosetta Becomes Optional in Snow Leopard?

 

[bobertoq]

I can not wait for the final release of Snow Leopard. I really do hope Apple does what ever it takes to increase performance, even if that includes dumping PC processors and applications. I use an iBook G4 as my main laptop -- and I mainly use my laptop -- and I don't mind. Probably because I'm going to get an iMac soon, but I want to see some of Apple applications snappier. Like Safari

 

[commander.data]

I hope Apple isn't using IBM buying Transitive as an excuse to pull Rosetta early. With Apple push towards appealing to corporate environments by adding Exchange support, pulling Rosetta and thereby Office 2004 for VBA support would be a step backwards. Even dropping Rosetta in 10.7 maybe too early.

And for the love of god please think of Starcraft.

 

[G4DP]

I hope Snow Leopard is also going to be considered "revolutionary" like Leopard was when it came out. I can see some major improvements coming in the Finder and how the operating system is structured itself. I think the Finder can use a better design. It has looked almost exactly the same for a long time. Since it has been rumored to be written in cocoa, I know there's something big coming. I think the operating system will be modifyed so Mac's will have faster boot times and require less memory to run.

How in god's name was Leopard 'revolutionary'? The things that were crap in Tiger are still crap in Leopard. Oh woohoo, they added eye candy like Time Machine and Spaces. Not exactly mind shattering. The only thing that will be great about Snow Leopard is Grand Central. Those of us with multi-core machine can actually use them properly.

As for PPC users, it may seem harsh to some, but those that were locked out from Leopard will still be able to run the machines the same. Those that will be locked out with the release of Snow Leopard will still be able to use the machines as they do today. Technology moves on, Apple has to drop support at some point, unless you guys want it to become similar to Windows.

 

[Roderick Usher]

Again. Seriously, haven't we been through all the arguments two or three times in the past six months?

It's ever-closer to being a non-issue, if it isn't one already:

(from Net Applications)

 

[jayducharme]

Put the dock on the sides, looks different and way sleeker.

That's the way I keep it on my own computer (with Tiger). I do like that look in Leopard much more than the bottom dock. But in the lab where I teach, the dock is kept on the bottom for consistency. :-/

I like that alternate bottom dock. I wish there was a simple preference setting for how the dock look (rather than having to use Terminal).

 

[ppc750fx]

How in god's name was Leopard 'revolutionary'? The things that were crap in Tiger are still crap in Leopard. Oh woohoo, they added eye candy like Time Machine and Spaces. Not exactly mind shattering. The only thing that will be great about Snow Leopard is Grand Central. Those of us with multi-core machine can actually use them properly.

So much vitriol, yet so few facts...

1) Time Machine isn't just eye candy. Like it or not, it's the first user-friendly implementation of a whole-drive versioning backup system.

2) Leopard contained a substantial amount of "under-the-hood" upgrades. Granted, not exactly the sort of stuff that non-technical users get psyched about, but a significant improvement for developers and power users. The kernel gained improved SMP performance (via the removal of several locks), the Finder gained more stable handling of networked volumes, and encrypted disk images gained 256-bit AES support as well as sparse bundles (i.e. striped disk images) -- just to name a few. Oh, and 64-bit app support was greatly improved.

3) Leopard contained significant security enhancements. Again, not the sort of thing that non-technical users notice, but important nonetheless. Partial ASLR, sandboxes, and executable quarantining were introduced, in addition to several other features.

4) Your comment about using multi-core machines "properly" indicates a gross misunderstanding of what Grand Central is. Grand Central is not a fix for a broken SMP implementation -- Leopard's SMP support is quite good -- rather, it's a set of libraries and technologies designed to make it easier for programmers to take advantage of multiple CPUs in their applications. Multi-threaded programming is hard to do well, and the introduction of such libraries will help speed the arrival of programs that can effectively utilize multiple CPUs.

On another note: yes, Rosetta does have a substantial disk space requirement. In order for that PPC->x86 magic to function correctly, Rosetta requires both PowerPC and x86 versions of all the OS libraries. Needless to say, this requires a substantial amount of space.

You can actually run 10.4/10.5 without Rosetta right now if you'd like. Simply fire up Monolingual and use it to strip out all other architectures (other than your current one) from all the OS libraries/binaries. Be forewarned though: Rosetta will not work, and some programs you didn't think depended on PPC libs will fail.

 

[KindredMAC]

Really I just wish all the whinney PPC users would just roll over and drop out of the Mac sceen. Apple should have dropped PPC support years ago after intel hardware doubled real world performance. That doesn't mean not to support PPC on a stable version of OS/X but to simple not to support development for future revisions.

Frankly continued PPC support is a waste of good money!



Dave

-1 for a douchie thing to say about the core Mac users that blindly and faithfully stayed with Apple for many years to allow Steve Jobs to bring out the iPod and make it a contender in the market so that Apple had some clout to bring it to the PC world and then the iPhone to the world.

As far as PPC not being adequate to match up to Intel, I wouldn't say that too loud in the processor and IT community. Many IT directors still prefer the PPC architecture and when you look at the Power6 and Power7 they are light years ahead of anything that Intel or AMD plan to come out with in the next few years.

I really wish Apple would have left the door open in the PowerMac line for the PPC Power 6/7's.

Everyone got on IBM for not being able to break 3.0 GHz three to four years ago.... well look at where we are today with Intel. We JUST broke 3.0 GHz in the last year. Everyone is moving to multi-core for performance boosts. IBM could have done the same and actually is doing the same.

 

[commander.data]

I really wish Apple would have left the door open in the PowerMac line for the PPC Power 6/7's.

Everyone got on IBM for not being able to break 3.0 GHz three to four years ago.... well look at where we are today with Intel. We JUST broke 3.0 GHz in the last year. Everyone is moving to multi-core for performance boosts. IBM could have done the same and actually is doing the same.

That assumes IBM had plans to produce PowerPC versions of the Power6 or Power7 architectures. I don't think they ever really did. If I'm not mistaken the G5 was actually Power4 derived. Apple was just too small a market for design a dedicated processor for. The console market was probably very lucrative in comparison and other PowerPC designs were optimized for the embedded market.

And it's not like the door is completely closed to PPC. Even if OS X is not longer released as a UB, PPC builds will still be kept in sync internally. If for no other reason than to hold as a threat over Intel that Apple could always initial a high profile breakup and go back to PPC if Apple doesn't continue getting special treatment.

 

[heynsmd2]

Both my HP printer AND scanner use PPC software drivers. And they're not THAT old that I want to replace them, so I'm glad they will still support it.

I'm more worried by the fact that drivers need to be 64 bit... What will happen with older printers and scanners? Even with rosetta they might not work.

 

[SydneyDev]

It's not really needed any more (Rosetta). Nearly everything is UB. Office, Photoshop etc, all UB.

 

[Vidd]

Everyone got on IBM for not being able to break 3.0 GHz three to four years ago.... well look at where we are today with Intel. We JUST broke 3.0 GHz in the last year.

Your point being?

Anyway, the more Apple trim off and the more efficient the OS gets, the better. I'm all for it.