Latest On Apple's Phone: Cingular Out, MVNO In?

Discussion in 'MacRumors News Discussion (archive)' started by MacRumors, Nov 2, 2006.

  1. iMacZealot macrumors 68020

    Mar 11, 2005
    T-Mobile is most certainly a real national carrier! They won the 2006 JD Power and Associates Award for Customer care in all six regions in the United States. And if they don't provide local numbers, what are they giving you then, Paleolithic phone numbers???? I know several people with T-Mobile with a local number.

    You mentioned that you are in North Carolina, which the reason why they don't have coverage there is because SunCom is sort of their "counterpart" if you will. After all, SunCom gets a lot of phones only T-Mobile gets, such as the Sidekick/hiptop.

    UMTS/HSDPA is NOT CDMA based. It is actually TDMA based, like GSM. While it does have a CDMA over-the-air interface, it is intended to replace GSM and its other sister technologies. EVDO is intended for the CDMA carriers (Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, US Cellular, Cricket, metroPCS) and will be a far cry from defacto as over 80% of the world is still using GSM. And second generation GSM is still amazing technology, and it and CDMA cannot be compared, just like apples and oranges or Macs and PCs.
  2. Lord Bodak macrumors 6502

    Jun 24, 2003
    Chesapeake, VA USA
    Going in as an MVNO on Cingular's network would be a disaster. First off, as an MVNO they're probably doomed to fail (ESPN Mobile anyone?). People aren't going to change providers for a specific phone, ESPECIALLY when they'll be able to find an unlocked one on eBay and stay with Cingular or T-Mobile (or any of the other GSM carriers in the world).
  3. iMacZealot macrumors 68020

    Mar 11, 2005
    Helio, a new MVNO carrier using Sprint's network, launched this May with just two phones. While they are not homemade phones, they are super customised, and they are launching another two phones by Christmas. One of their launch models is already out of stock.

    I doubt Apple would launch as a Cingular MVNO because Cingular doesn't do that too often. Sprint, I believe, sells its network the most to MVNOs.
  4. lorductape macrumors 6502


    Jun 23, 2006
    t3h usa

    does anyone actually care?

    solution to apple's carrier problems (unless the t-mobile deal is official)



    Pure Genius!
  5. Maestro64 macrumors regular


    Jan 5, 2005
    WHy not WiMax

    Here is another ideal to consider. Instead of going after the traditional networks and providers and as many have pointed out many of those networks whether GSM or CDMA do not have enough bandwidths to make an Iphone really usuable.

    I think they will deploy WiMax iPhone since the chip sets are standard based verses proprietary technology from Qualcom and others for CDMA and GSM which have very close relation ships with the current cell phone companies and service providers.

    WiMax is the next generation wireless technology which will be deployed by companies like Earthlink for wireless broadband internet access. This is something I can see Apple doing verses trying working a deal with the current services providers.
  6. SMM macrumors 65816


    Sep 22, 2006
    Tiger Mountain - WA State

    My company has ~80% of its' workforce in the field. For the most part (~75%), they have not had direct contact with their main office. If I were to hazard a guess, 1/3 of these employees would benefit (or the company would) from being connected. One of my current projects is to automate our field operations.

    Email would be the first obvious application, but near real-time data collection would be of even more benefit to the Company. So, I have scaled down some applications, which run decently in a Citrix shell, and at the current Cingular bandwidth. Recently, I have been looking at various tablet PC's and small footprint laptops. I am surprised by how few attractive products there are and/or how much they cost. The price/performance ratio is absolutely dreadful.

    I have been asking myself why no one seems to be really jumping out to capture this market. Granted, there are some players out there, but nothing to really wow you. Then I started remembering some of the rumors I have read here, some of the patent applications and job descriptions for engineers specializing in the various technologies associated with this type of product.

    I wonder if Apple is getting ready to pounce on this? It is right up their alley. Any opinions?
  7. mgauss macrumors newbie

    Mar 27, 2006
    My $ 400 a month on cell phones will go to Apple

    4 phones in this family
  8. SeaFox macrumors 68030


    Jul 22, 2003
    Somewhere Else
    Come now, the Powerbook G5 is the biggest rumor engine.

    What did the city officals think they were going to accomplish? This is cell phone service, there are no gaurantees of service quality enforced by law and a cell phone is by no means a necessity of life. If the service sucks, why doesn't everyone in town change carriers? That's what the free market is about.

    Yup, yup. That's what I'm waiting for. I'm not going to go through the hassle of porting my number just to get an iPhone and I'm not interested in being a second-class citizen on someone else's network. I'm not on contract, I like my current plan, and aren't most MVNO's prepaid?
  9. iMacZealot macrumors 68020

    Mar 11, 2005
    11 phones in mine, and the sad thing is there are only 7 people in my family.
  10. kresh macrumors 6502a


    hehe Paleolithic :)

    You know several people in North Carolina with local numbers?

    Yes SunCom has an agreement with T-Mobile. SunCom also has an agreement with Cingular, actually when Cingular bought AT&T, Cingular had to divest themselves from alot of markets in North Carolina and these customers were turned over to SunCom. SunCom promptly required every ex-Cingular customer to resign their contracts and purchase new phones. It was a huge stink, all over the news for weeks.

    But the agreement would not help in this situation. Since T-Mobile does not have local numbers here, one would have to go with SunCom as there are no local numbers for T-Mobile. In our area Cingular actually leases their block of numbers from Sprint.

    Any company you decide to have cellular service with has to offer local numbers in order to use them. US Cellular is similar as they only offer local numbers for the very western part of the state.

    The absolute best way to see where the towers are that your cellular provider owns (thus provides local numbers for) is to look at the coverage map for their prepaid service. Most providers only allow the use of prepaid phones on their "owned" networks and charge you for use on other networks.

    I worked for Alltel for 3 years and am currently the Market Director for another national CDMA carrier. In my 15 years in the cellular industry, it constantly amazes me that there is cellular service in the US at all. The spectrum (A side and B side radio frequencies) ownership is so fragmented across the US that it is almost impossible to know who owns what, where!
  11. MikeTheC Guest


    Apr 26, 2004
    Gallifrey -- Capitol City, Prydonian Sector

    Well, folks, I suppose it's time to announce...

    And, after all, if such an announcement as this is to come from anywhere, then why not from he who is the MikeTheC...

    I can now unofficially confirm that it is now confirmed. But only unofficially.
  12. iMacZealot macrumors 68020

    Mar 11, 2005
    I understand the local numbers thing, but just because North Carolina doesn't get local numbers doesn't mean T-Mobile isn't a real, national carrier.

    North Carolina sounds funny when it comes to cell phones. I like Suncom's phone selection a lot better than anyone else's, and it sounds like SunCom's the only way to go out there. Here in Colorado, CDMA dominates, but T-Mobile has a big presence here, too. Cingular is nearly non-existent.

    That AT&T thing sounds awful. Did a lawsuit occur in that? Also, I think Cingular's numbers are leased in a lot of places. In case you haven't used the reverse phone lookup on, it will tell you who the service provider is, but everytime I look up the two people I know with Cingular, it comes up saying Blue Licenses Holding, Llc or Routt County Wireless (which isn't a local carrier nor is Denver in Routt County.)

    Yeah, the whole spectrum thing is funny. My dad is a doctor, and one of his patients worked for Qwest Wireless, and he put in a tower for us by our house because there was this deadspot nearby. Since Qwest sold their network to Sprint, it's now a Sprint tower, and the funny thing is, it also looks like a T-Mobile tower on their coverage check. And i can't tell if Verizon has one there or not. My phone has bad reception. It's so odd.
  13. yg17 macrumors G5


    Aug 1, 2004
    St. Louis, MO

    Cingular sucks. If Apple goes with them, it will be a huge mistake.

    7 weeks till our Cingular contract's up!
  14. Ja Di ksw macrumors 65816

    Ja Di ksw

    Apr 9, 2003
    Ha, you want to unofficially confirm when it's going to happen as well? Only unofficially, of course :rolleyes:
  15. Rend It macrumors 6502

    Oct 27, 2003
    United States
    That's funny...

    Gee, maybe I'm weird, because I actually DON'T own a TV, but I DO own a cell phone. I think the cell phone serves a much greater purpose to any society than a television. Let's people I love and care about, or waste my brain watching the garbage on cable. Hmm.

    Just my 2 cents.
  16. iMacZealot macrumors 68020

    Mar 11, 2005
    1) Not every conversation I hold on my phone talks about a one night stand.
    2) I don't scream into my cell phone.
    3) I leave my phone at home when I go to church.

    You can decide whether your cell phone controls you or if you control your cell phone.

    And let's face it: cell phones are EVERYWHERE! People have them. And iPods are EVERYWHERE! People have them, too. And, in my opinion, music players move fast. Portable music players change majorly every 10 or so years. I think the cell phone and iPod are a natural fit. They're things everyone has and uses everywhere. And if Apple can pull off another beautiful, seamless product, then get ready to see as many iPhones as there are RAZRs and iPods combined.

    And sometimes, the oldest rumors come true. The Intel Mac rumors have been floating around since 1991, and it became a detested rumor, but it finally came true...
  17. WaRrK macrumors newbie

    Aug 4, 2004
    Sheffield, UK
    The Apple iPhone - From the team that brought you Duke Nukem Forever!! :rolleyes:
  18. fixyourthinking macrumors 6502a


    Oct 24, 2002
    Greenville SC
    TMobile is actually pretty small when compared with the top 3:


    The top 3 comprise 78% of cell phones in the country.

    I doubt the comments from the TMobile CEO had much to do with the decision.

    Cingular is currently is the only major carrier that does not have an MVNO based on it's lines. (As far as I know)

    Verizon has Alltel & Virgin Mobile
    Sprint has Virgin Mobile, some TraCphone & other prepaid offerings

    AT&T wireless used to have SunCom as an MVNO, but when they merged with Cingular they went independent - putting up their own towers and leasing some towers from Cingular.

    It's my opinion that Apple will be a Cingular based MVNO and that the phone will work on TMobile and SunCom - but just won't be supported - just like Cingular phones are now. IE - I can buy a TMobile Sidekick on eBay and use it on Cingular, I just don't have the same plan or all features available to me.

    The only alliance that I see Apple may have with T-Mobile is that Danger - which makes the semi-exclusive T-Mobile SideKick has Steve Wozniak as an investor.

    Now, you can look at that coincidence from two angles:

    1) It's just something Woz saw promise in
    2) He's been there (at Danger) as a technology partner/development partner for Danger all along to be able to assist Apple first hand with their own Phone efforts. A plant, if you will.

    Personally, I see the iPhone as being something very very similar to a Sidekick ... but better.
  19. peharri macrumors 6502a

    Dec 22, 2003
    As is usual with anything to do with the iPhone, this is ill-informed speculation based upon small nuggets of information that do not imply anything remotely close to what's being suggested, and where the rumour becomes more absurd with every added detail.

    Is there going to be an iPhone? I have no idea. I was convinced there wouldn't be, but with Motorola firing shots across Apple's bows with changes to the ROKR, and Apple trademarking "iPhone" everywhere, it seems possible however ridiculous it may be.

    Is it going to be on an MVNO? Depends. Is Apple, by releasing the iPhone, just planning on killing its own media business, or is the long term strategy the complete destruction of Apple itself, with huge investments in burdersome businesses pursuing strategies the company is completely unfamiliar with and which can only ever appeal to a tiny minority in the country?

    Does Cingular's announcement in any way preclude the possibility of the iTS going "online" in a cellular form? Answer: Did any of the amateur (and a few of the professional) "analysts" actually BOTHER, at any point, to READ what Cingular itself was proposing? Cingular is setting up a NON-EXCLUSIVE system for music distribution that involves THREE COMPETING STORES. You're saying that this means Cingular will refuse, point blank, to add the iTS.

    Why? Where the hell do you get that from? Cingular's being neutral and you're saying it means Cingular has somehow decided against allowing the iTS to join in the fun when it's ready to do so?

    This story is plain awful. It shouldn't be on page 1. It shouldn't even be on page 3. It's a bunch of speculation based upon evidence that doesn't remotely back-up the speculation given. It serves only to pander to a minority of Apple Phone fetishist's wet dreams. Apple will, apparently, because Cingular is currently allowing three competing music stores to operate on their network, reject Cingular, operate an MVNO, sell only the "iPhone", a revolutionary phone that's an iPod and a cellphone, and a Newton, but actually just a phone, but it's also a 770, but actually no it's an iPod with wireless connectivity, on it, and due to their inexperience somehow make this all work and get 75% market penetration in six months and save the iPod!

    Oh come on! What the hell? What the hell!

    Can you rumourmongers come up with something a little more concrete. You know, something that actually makes sense. Yes, you want a phone. And I'm quite sure Apple can design a nice one too. Hey, tell you what, I want Mac OS X to run legally on my Thinkpad too. That doesn't mean they're going to do it.

    What's the difference between Mac OS X running on a Thinkpad and an iPhone? I can see how Apple can make a profit and increase their marketshare by selling Mac OS X for Thinkpads.
  20. peharri macrumors 6502a

    Dec 22, 2003
    You're right in that systems like EVDO can't be used with UMTS, but you're introducing inaccuracies in the way you argue it. UMTS runs over a variety of air interfaces, none of which are TDMA.

    W-CDMA is a CDMA air interface, like IS-95 (which is the air interface specification that's frequently referred to by the name "CDMA", but this is misleading as the words refer to a type of multiplexing, not a specification and protocol. IS-95 is a specification and protocol. Likewise IS-136, also known as D-AMPS, was frequently called "TDMA" in the US, but both GSM and IS-136 use TDMA air interfaces, using completely different implementations. GSM's is actually wideband and frequency hopping, making it a spread spectrum TDMA system.)

    UMTS runs over W-CDMA.

    A modification to W-CDMA is HSDPA. This is still a CDMA air interface (it's only a modified W-CDMA.) UMTS runs over HSDPA too, and indeed that's the air interface used for UMTS by Cingular.

    Yet another modification to W-CDMA is HSUPA. This is also still CDMA, and UMTS runs over that.

    While I'm just throwing facts out there, UMTS can also run over 802.11, using a system called UMA. (GSM can do the same thing)

    Anyway, nothing about UMTS is TDMA. It's using CDMA (except for 802.11 which is an essay by itself.) It's not the same CDMA specification and protocol as Sprint/Verizon, but it does use a CDMA-based air interface.

    What are the differences? Well, the big one is that Sprint/Verizon's CDMA, which is known as IS-95 and IS-2000, and/or cmdaOne and CDMA2000, use 1.5MHz slices of spectrum, whereas W-CDMA uses 5MHz slices of spectrum. This, and other protocol and encoding changes, means W-CDMA is better at handling a variety of different types of data (in terms of the reserved bandwidth you need for audio/video, and more bursty pattern you need for web access, etc), though supposedly it degrades poorly as you go further from a tower.

    For more information, take a look at Wikipedia.
  21. ccrandall77 macrumors regular

    Jan 6, 2004
    Franklin, WI
    Not quite true. UMTS uses W-CDMA as it's underlying protocol. W-CDMA is a mixture of CDMA and, to a lesser extent, GSM technologies. UMTS/HSDPA is the route that current GSM/GPRS/EDGE carriers are going since it's an easier upgrade path. (Check out Wikipedia or Google for W-CDMA for more info).
  22. peharri macrumors 6502a

    Dec 22, 2003
    W-CDMA is just an air-interface standard. It's not a mixture of anything. It was originally designed for the Japanese FOMA system and was subsequently adopted by the 3G GSM people.

    It is a CDMA air interface, but it's unrelated to IS-95, the popular US standard used by Sprint and Verizon that's frequently called "CDMA" as if the terms are interchangable. It doesn't contain any GSM, and it doesn't contain any IS-95. It is, however, like IS-95, a CDMA system, and UMTS, which uses it, is a version of GSM.

    That's correct.
  23. CEAbiscuit macrumors 6502a


    Jun 28, 2006
    The Kitchen
    I was once excited about the iPhone, but the more and more specualtion I hear about it, the word "Newton" keeps entering my mind.
  24. sbrhwkp3 macrumors 6502a


    Jul 17, 2005
    Lake George, NY
    Cingular is awesome. I get service everywhere.
  25. ccrandall77 macrumors regular

    Jan 6, 2004
    Franklin, WI
    Not exactly.

    From Wikipedia:
    "More technically, W-CDMA is a wideband spread-spectrum mobile air interface that utilizes the direct sequence Code Division Multiple Access signalling method (or CDMA) to achieve higher speeds and support more users compared to the older TDMA signalling method of GSM networks. W-CDMA is a competitor to CDMA2000."

    And if you look at this presentation on page 9:

    you'll see that the W-CDMA standard did evolve from GSM and CDMA (IS-95).

    There are a lot of other references out there too, but these are the 2 I have readily available.

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