Leaked EU Document Could Spell Major Changes for App Store, Messages, FaceTime, Browsers, and Siri

[jakey rolling]

Yep this will happen if apple can’t compete and stay draconian. Otherwise any app will be available on multiple store fronts. 99% of epic store games exist on steam etc

And many of those games have, at times, become available for very cheap or free thanks to those stores competing with each other. Which is exactly the effect we hope to see with mobile app stores once real competition becomes available.

 

[jlc1978]

I seriously don’t understand what you believe a phone is but a small computer you chose do things with and carry around.
https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/22/iphone-ipad-windows-10/amp/

UTM on an iPhone? UTM visualizing an x86 is painfully slow, and based on my experience with UTM on a Mac with Apple Silicon I suspect running it on an iPhone will be like making love while wearing a hazmat suit. It might happen but the experience will not be satisfying.

I am well aware that you cannot install Google apps on an iOS device. My comment was a "what-if scenario" if alt-stores are legislated into existence then nothing is stopping Google from opening an iOS store alongside or within their current store. Does that make sense? I assume that if able the following will open iOS stores: Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Steam, Facebook(Meta), Epic and potentially others. Also assuming they all will via for exclusive distribution rights to popular apps, hence my question/scenario.

If they can get exclusibes what happens when Apple negotiates similar deals? Seems that would be the way to stifle competition given Apple's user base would dwarf any competitor.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

In other words, it's a socialist move. Take someones IP and give it to the people. Can't explain it any better.

No Ip is taken. The phone is already mine. If apple doesn’t like private property then they should force retailers to show a contract before purchasing their devices

I think many will find that 30% is a much smaller cut than going at it alone; once all the costs currently included in the 30% now need to be paid by the developer. That 30% covers a lot more than just a credit card fee, including, but limited to, storage, bandwidth, worldwide distribution, tax compliance, currency conversion, advertising, etc. Not to mention upfront costs if they decide to host it them selves, for example. All a developer needs is a link on their website to the store, if they have a website. I doubt it will be easier, cheaper, and less stressful dealing with a bunch of stores in various countries, getting paid and converting the payment for a fee, dealing with local tax laws, etc. They may simply eschew markets the App Store now operates in to avoid the problems, leaving some consumers with no choice.

The 30% doesn’t include taxes. In EU your pay tax on profits made, and a VAT of 20~%. These aren’t included or managed by apple

The big players will have no problem because EPIC has the cash to develop an iOS part to their store. I oubt they will be any more developer friendly than Apple. Want to sell stuff for FortNight? Sorry, we like that all the in game sales requires paying us, and only us.

They are extremely development friendly.
You can use your own payment solution and pay 0% to epic or use their solution and pay 12%. You can sell a store in their store and pay 0% to epic. And selling for fortnight ( product for a live service game) is not the same as selling for a glorified computer in your pocket.

As with any store, they markup the price to make their profit; and don't care how much you earn.

That’s why consumer should be able to do as they wish with their property.

My point is the legislative proposals specifically call out revenue and user base size as far as applicability. It's not aimed at Apple per se, just that they are one company big enough to fall under its purview. If it wasn't about business size or revenue then they would not have specified it in the law. Note: There are several pieces of legislation that have been intertwined in the discussion, I am referring to one that does call out size and revenue; others may not be as explicit.

It’s about market abuse. They can’t make monopolies illegal as there isn’t anything harmful with monopolies inherently. That is why revenue+customer number+business users are the combined criteria to try and draw a hardline for what a gatekeeper is without having to investigate every company, it becomes more efficient to have a minim criteria you can later challenge to prove abuse isn’t happening or prove abuse is happening even tho the initial criteria aren’t met.

The EU is probably already missing out on some innovation because companies cannot or will not make their products work in accordance with local regulation. There's nothing wrong with that per se, that's a decision for individual companies to make.

It does become a problem if you sell a, for the lack of a better word, global product such as iOS (or Android) but you only allow yourself to use the full potential of the platform. If Apple Pay is not available in your region, then there's really no comparably convenient way to use your iPhone for touchless payment services in shops or public transportation. In some ways that may be insignificant, but it multiplies across several areas.

Kind of ironic in a sense as many technological innovations exist in EU on abroad level because of legal legislation compared to the USA.

Contactless payments, digital ID and verification, peer2peer instant payments are technology that have exist almost universally for a long while but is barely a thing in the USA.

The obvious rebuttal to forcing platforms to be more open is that they have created the platform and it should therefore be up to them what you can do with them. Don't like it, create your own platform. Fair enough, but pragmatically also not very feasible. Companies such as Apple know that, which is why they are making this argument in the first place.

Well the obvious rebuttal is: I’m not apples platform and my phone is… well my phone and should not be apples business what I do with it.

No I'm not saying that the DMA/DSA will deliver this, I don't believe they go that far. We shall see what impact they will have in a couple of years. What I do believe, very strongly, is that it would open up room for innovation in places that are not at the forefront of product road maps in Cupertino or Mountain View. As most non-US users of these devices will know, there's always a long list of things that just doesn't work outside of the US and, where local alternatives do exist, it's always a second rate experience because some things just cannot be easily integrated into the "seamless experience." Until the platform provider realises, of course, that it would be profitable, in which case the competitor is immediately at a disadvantage.

Big tech will likely kick and scream, not everything will work as intended and mistakes will be made, but I very strongly believe that more open systems would benefit everyone in the long run.

Actually they are forcing apple to open up the NFC chip for alternative programs, and as you say most of the time apple prevents superior user experience on arbitrary lines because they want the US solution to be first, even tho the rest of the world moves on and developers superior solutions despite apples limitations

It baffles me that you think this is "extraordinary easy". Because it isn't. Also if you had read the section that I quoted it's not just messages, it's voice and videocalls too. If you really think it's "extraordinary easy" you should let Apple know. They are going to want to hire you.

If you actually know anything about coding and program, you would know it’s extremely easy to do. Apple doesn’t do these things for commercial reasons. iMessage and FaceTime is a selling feature and locks users in.

There are a question of using two protocols
1: the proprietary one with uneque functionality
2: basic functionality interoperability with a secondary universal protocol that can ether be free or licensed under a FRAND agreement, just as how an iPhone supports multiple 4G/5G standards in one device seamlessly

How exactly will I not be forced to "join" another store or site in order to get updates to an app I already own?

Example: I own Angry Birds, bought it way back of course from the iOS store. Now alt-stores are legislated into existence and the dev chooses to pull out of the iOS store and move the Angry Birds franchise to Steam. How am I going to get updates, if offered, without creating a Steam account so that my purchase can be verified? Do you really believe that Steam will allow apps to be hosted, and updated, from their platform without an account?

As you say: vote with your dollars and purchase only iOS AppStore games. Nobody forces you to use steam. Just as people refuse to use the epic store and exclusives untill it’s released on ste

 

[Sophisticatednut]

.

I will indeed be forced to either join Steam or abandon an app I own.

You are already forced to do this. Multiple apps for me have been removed and I’m forced to abandon it such as TapTap revolution as they get removed from iOS AppStore

I'm not sure why this concept is called into question. Many here are saying "don't worry you will still be able to get all apps in the iOS store but now from other stores as well" and I challenge that thought with the realistic concept of devs going solo to avoid the 30% or larger stores offering devs deals for exclusive distribution rights. I don't see either of those options as being consumer friendly versus what we have now.

How aren’t consumers benefitted from competing and opinions of purchasing place. One solo option isn’t consumer friendly.

Difference is that Apple hosts, markets and processes payments for the iOS store, it is a service that comes at a cost. Why should Apple do all of this and make nothing?

The problem is apple forces everyone to use their service. But ignoring the fact that my iPhone is not a platform or service apple owns. I owned my phone the second I paymed my local store cash to transfer ownership

In a perfect world the MacOS store would operate the same way.

And in a perfect world apple would still be barred from actively preventing users from doing what they want on their device.

To be fair OS X would have imploded the second they try. We want iOS to become like thr Mac not windows or android

 

[hcherry]

That’s why consumer should be able to do as they wish with their property.

I think you’re conflating “doing what you want with your property” with “requiring apple to design software so you can use your phone in a specific way you prefer to use it.”

You’re already free to use your property the way you want. You’re just not free (and, IMO, shouldn’t be free) to force apple to design their product the exact way you want.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Europe, for a long time, was a collection of kingdoms and fiefdoms; where a (hopefully) benevolent ruler provided for his or her subjects in exchange for their efforts.

A kingdom. That is what the App Store and it’s policies are concerning users smartphones. You are defending a private kingdom like politics over peoples properties, case in case the devices they bought, with the hopes of a benevolent ruler. Much like it happened in the medieval time! The difference being that it’s around hundreds of millions if not billions of people properties, aka smart devices.

On top, some argue that if a corp cannot achieve this goal than there is no incentive for innovation. How crazy and f-up is that mind set?

The EU is simply stating that if such device centric kingdoms want to be an $important$ part of its communication infrastructure has to comply with certain liberal rules facilitating interoperation with other kingdoms. So that it’s citizens can navigate between these at ease without many roadblocks.

Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why is this a kingdom centric mindset as your theory proposed to be the root of EU regulation?

Well, when you complain about "it holds ransom the users devices" it sure seemed like it, so I'll grant I misunderstood you. But still, in the very same post, you point out you could buy the subscription outside of the App Store but didn't; disproving the notion you are held hostage in that scenario.

I did not complain about anything. Stated an opinion as far as App Store policies are at the moment. Kingdom like policies that span even across communication between the customers and digital services beyond the App itself, not to mention a confusing price tagging model designed in a way that the user only knows the actual price a second before paying. Try and find the price of a digital service in the App Store before downloading the App and press buy … you cannot. Some even require the user to share the email before. Are these measures for user choice and security or is in fact for conditioning choice to the limit?

Has I’ve said, if the App Store modus is the same as any other regular retail Store this regulation offers no change. It isn’t much of a problem to the App Store and other stores alike!

 

[Beautyspin]

UTM on an iPhone? UTM visualizing an x86 is painfully slow, and based on my experience with UTM on a Mac with Apple Silicon I suspect running it on an iPhone will be like making love while wearing a hazmat suit. It might happen but the experience will not be satisfying.



If they can get exclusibes what happens when Apple negotiates similar deals? Seems that would be the way to stifle competition given Apple's user base would dwarf any competitor.

It is good that the new regulations are now forced to negotiate with the developers instead of dictating to them. How the mighty fall.

 

[icanhazmac]

As you say: vote with your dollars and purchase only iOS AppStore games. Nobody forces you to use steam.

I plan to not purchase anything from an alt-store but my example was very clearly for an app I already own, purchased from the Apple store but has moved to an alt-store. If I want to update that app I will need to join the alt-store which I find unacceptable and anti-consumer.

You are already forced to do this. Multiple apps for me have been removed and I’m forced to abandon it such as TapTap revolution as they get removed from iOS AppStore

There is a huge difference between an app that has been abandoned or not updated by the developer and is not longer available for download because of compatibility etc and apps that get removed from the iOS store because of an exclusive distribution agreement or a dev that wants to go it alone.

How aren’t consumers benefitted from competing and opinions of purchasing place. One solo option isn’t consumer friendly.

How do customers benefit when alt-stores compete for apps via exclusive distribution agreements? Still sounds like a single point of distribution to me.

And in a perfect world apple would still be barred from actively preventing users from doing what they want on their device.

You are not barred from doing anything, it just isn't easy.

To be fair OS X would have imploded the second they try. We want iOS to become like thr Mac not windows or android

I disagree wholeheartedly, YMMV.

 

[jakey rolling]

I think you’re conflating “doing what you want with your property” with “requiring apple to design software so you can use your phone in a specific way you prefer to use it.”

There is no conflating the two - they are inextricably linked, thanks to Apple's own heavy-handed software design principles. Apple's software design includes intentional vendor lock-in that artificially restricts what a user can do with their own property, to a point that is now increasingly being seen as unreasonable and an abuse of their market position.

In this case, "doing what I want with my property" is clearly the same thing as "require Apple to design their software so that I can do what I want with my property." Further, this is a situation that Apple themselves have created, which is why Apple themselves are the ones who must bear the cost of remedying it.

 

[jakey rolling]

I plan to not purchase anything from an alt-store but my example was very clearly for an app I already own, purchased from the Apple store but has moved to an alt-store. If I want to update that app I will need to join the alt-store which I find unacceptable and anti-consumer.

You were compelled to join a store to acquire the app in the first place, and you must remain part of that store to update it. The only difference between how things work now, and your made-up "alt-store" scenario is that you, as a customer, now actually have no choice to whatsoever in which store you wish to support. There is no real scenario where the alt-store becomes more anticompetitive than the current Apple store.

Having said that, I would agree with you - exclusive distribution agreements are also anticompetitive, and should any one or two of the major players become so powerful that they can dictate how the market works, they should face similar regulatory scrutiny. Luckily, as others have pointed out, we are nowhere close to that being a reality.

It's actually kind of amusing that only a few pages up, people like you were using some ridiculous analogy about forcing McDonald's to sell Whoppers, or Burger King to sell Big Macs as some argument against having alt-stores, and here you are worrying that you'll no longer be able to buy either of those at the single Wal Mart location that you're currently tied to like you're used to.

There is a huge difference between an app that has been abandoned or not updated by the developer and is not longer available for download because of compatibility etc and apps that get removed from the iOS store because of an exclusive distribution agreement or a dev that wants to go it alone.

No, there really isn't. Both of those are scenarios that come from the business decision that a developer makes on what they think is the best course of action for the development and distribution of their software. Both of those things concern an agreement between a software developer and their customers. Neither of those things should be any of Apple's business, outside of providing distribution and payment services to the developer and customer, should they both choose to utilize Apple's offerings for those services.

How do customers benefit when alt-stores compete for apps via exclusive distribution agreements? Still sounds like a single point of distribution to me.

Because most of those exclusives are for software that are both non-critical software (mostly entertainment), and for which there are a metric-f-ton of alternatives. As a customer, it is quite easy and nearly costless to decide to vote with your wallet in that market. Such is absolutely not the case in the mobile app-store market today.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I think you’re conflating “doing what you want with your property” with “requiring apple to design software so you can use your phone in a specific way you prefer to use it.”

You’re already free to use your property the way you want. You’re just not free (and, IMO, shouldn’t be free) to force apple to design their product the exact way you want.

I don’t believe I am.

It’s a question of why does apple need to actively put obstacles in the way? It's essentially just gatekeeper on steroids. why cant i just clock the box anywhere in iOS? why do i have to pay apple 99$ year just to click iOS store and identified developers?
And why do i need to practically jailbreak my phone, breaking all the security by having root access just to be allowed to klick the anywhere key

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I plan to not purchase anything from an alt-store but my example was very clearly for an app I already own, purchased from the Apple store but has moved to an alt-store. If I want to update that app I will need to join the alt-store which I find unacceptable and anti-consumer.

Then chose another app. Seems to work for every steam user as all the developers comes crawling back to the steam store as users refuse to use other options

There is a huge difference between an app that has been abandoned or not updated by the developer and is not longer available for download because of compatibility etc and apps that get removed from the iOS store because of an exclusive distribution agreement or a dev that wants to go it alone.

there are hundreds of apps that exist on both android and iOS, but the developers only update their android app instead. Essentially forcing you to purchase a new android phone if you want to get the latest updates

How do customers benefit when alt-stores compete for apps via exclusive distribution agreements? Still sounds like a single point of distribution to me.

by allowing the difrent stores to compete with each other and provide better services.
Epic store have made Windows store drop fees for applications that aren't games to 100% if they use their own payment solution, and games have lowered their fees to 12%

Microsoft Store gives app developers option to keep 100% of revenue, but not games

Microsoft unveiled Windows 11 yesterday and introduced a way for app developers to get around its store fees -- but gam…

www.gamesindustry.biz

exclusivity agreement is a non issue. there is a tone of games that are exclusivly on Playstation, and i as many people have refused to buy a playstaion to buy the game. and now exclusive games have become a timed exclusive instead and even being launched on PC

Sony’s PS4 hit Horizon Zero Dawn is coming to PC on August 7th

The PC version of the PS4 hit will get ultrawide display support, unlocked framerates, and other exclusive features.

www.theverge.com

the famous Sony exclusive came and all was well.

You are not barred from doing anything, it just isn't easy.

unless i do things that apple have tried to make illegal.... sure

I disagree wholeheartedly, YMMV.

that the Mac would die? it would. the Mac appstore is not usable for anything meaningful. that is why everyone kind of abandons it for it's crippeling limitations and inability to have the same program in the store as their website.

 

[Sampire51]

So does this mean my Garmin watch will now allow me to respond to messages from my watch since Apple currently blocks that feature and only lets the Apple Watch do that?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So does this mean my Garmin watch will now allow me to respond to messages from my watch since Apple currently blocks that feature and only lets the Apple Watch do that?

Not likely, but it will likely prevent apple from not allowing you to use a garmin app as the standard messaging application.

 

[KurtMann]

Well point 1 they already broke the law by violating peoples private property.

And part 2: we already know this, Tesla uses their backwards port in USA. And uses a standard port in EU.

The standard port can use level 1-3 charging without anything special with the cable.

I seriously don’t understand what you believe a phone is but a small computer you chose do things with and carry around.

New app to let you run Windows 10 on your iPhone

Wish you could do more with your iPhone than just run Apple’s app store apps? A group of independent developers is working to sort you out. UTM is a new app that uses QEMU (virtualization software) to run the full version of Windows 10 from Microsoft’s operating system image. iOS devices lack...

www.windowslatest.com

the difrent between a laptop and desktop computer is exactly the same as the difference between laptops and smart phones

If laptops can replace desktop computers, then why do we use desktop computers? And if you don’t want your phone to act like a computer then you should buy a dumb phone instead of a smart phone.

Smart Phones replaced computers because of their mobility. It’s nothing about them being Limited.

Yea I know, it was just an allegory. The thing is I can’t find anything for the EUCJ to even theoretically challenge the DMA through article 263

Yep this will happen if apple can’t compete and stay draconian. Otherwise any app will be available on multiple store fronts. 99% of epic store games exist on steam etc

This is already the case. You can’t install google play store apps. They aren’t compatible. Just as you can’t put a PlayStation game in an Xbox and expect it to work. Developers leave the AppStore all the time and go exclusively android etc.

And as they argue currently vote with your money. If you don’t want to use alternative stores then don’t use it and they will change

Good thing nothing is legislated as you say it. Only the prevention of illegal control of private property and that users will have the ability to install what they want on their phones.

I don't think the difference between desktop and laptop is exactly the same as the difference between laptops and smart phones. The Ipad is weirder, and maybe should be "more like" a laptop in capabilities and operability. The mobility of the smart phone is a great argument for why it's replacing all computing before it for many people. But if I look around at non tech people, nobody seems to be missing the computer? Nobody feels limited by the limited smart computer (if you want to call it that). The fragmentation will hurt the experience more than it will benefit or solve problems for people. This is for developers, not for users. And it will benefit big tech developers, Epic and likes. It might even be harder for indie-developers to compete in a fragmented market? I'm not smart enough to predict the outcome of this, I'm just not excited.

 

[Sampire51]

For a lot of people, their iPhone or android phones are their only connection to the outside world. They don’t own a traditional computer. They do their banking, bills, etc on their phones. Most of us here are probably privileged enough to own multiple devices and platforms. A lot of people don’t have that luxury. It’s easy for us here to say someone doesn’t need an iPhone but for a lot of people that’s their main computer. I know several people that only own smartphones because that’s all they can afford.

 

[ksj1]

Can't believe the argument about whether a smart phone is the same as a laptop and thus the same as a desktop. Why just last week I fired up xCode and compiled an app on my iPhone... /s

 

[bstag]

It’s time Apple slaps some dictators. Fold up shop stop selling the EU iPhones and they’ll poop all over themselves the EU small market compared to the US

 

[jlc1978]

It’s time Apple slaps some dictators. Fold up shop stop selling the EU iPhones and they’ll poop all over themselves the EU small market compared to the US

Given the EU is 20% of Apple's total revenue that isn't going to happen.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Can't believe the argument about whether a smart phone is the same as a laptop and thus the same as a desktop. Why just last week I fired up xCode and compiled an app on my iPhone... /s

Well what would you call a chrome book? Not a laptop because it’s software Locked as a browser? Xcode can run on iPhone hardware, apple just doesn’t allow it

 

[cqexbesd]

what apps do people want to side load? I don't see why it's seen as so important to some.

I wrote my own app but if I load it onto my iPhone it only works for seven days and I have to load it again.

The long story is I live in an apartment building where the manufacturer of the main door's lock has gone out of business and they can't produce new keys. Eventually the door will be replaced (because apparently just the lock can't be switched...) but until now there are limited numbers of keys. I had one and my partner had one but now we have some people from Ukraine staying with us so we gave them one key between them and my partner has one. I built up a hacky system to buzz the door opening intercom from my phone so I can let myself into the building - but now I find I have to remember to reload the app every week. Even if I joined the Apple Developer Programme I couldn't put it on the AppStore because only apps of "general interest" or some similar term are allowed.

It's my phone, I should be able to put any app I want on it. I understand the argument that Apple wants to stop insecure apps from being distributed but even if you accept that, I am installing this app via a USB cable - it's clearly not mass distribution.

 

[mrochester]

I wrote my own app but if I load it onto my iPhone it only works for seven days and I have to load it again.

The long story is I live in an apartment building where the manufacturer of the main door's lock has gone out of business and they can't produce new keys. Eventually the door will be replaced (because apparently just the lock can't be switched...) but until now there are limited numbers of keys. I had one and my partner had one but now we have some people from Ukraine staying with us so we gave them one key between them and my partner has one. I built up a hacky system to buzz the door opening intercom from my phone so I can let myself into the building - but now I find I have to remember to reload the app every week. Even if I joined the Apple Developer Programme I couldn't put it on the AppStore because only apps of "general interest" or some similar term are allowed.

It's my phone, I should be able to put any app I want on it. I understand the argument that Apple wants to stop insecure apps from being distributed but even if you accept that, I am installing this app via a USB cable - it's clearly not mass distribution.

You put your app on your phone then complained you can’t put your app on your phone. Something doesn’t compute here.

 

[Neepman]

And THIS is why Brexit happened.

 

[seek3r]

And THIS is why Brexit happened.

So that UK citizens could lose their voice in the standards laws that will affect them anyway?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

And THIS is why Brexit happened.

And does exactly the same thing. Congratulations