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That's where we see things different. I don't see it as an overreach of power. I see it as a well reasoned defence of consumer rights. We own our devices and should be able to do what we want with them. If I want to smash it on the pavement I can and I should also be able to install the software I want.

I also believe this for game consoles and I hope one day it happens there too.
I think some parts are an overreach - I think the EU made this harder to get behind for some people because they went to far in some places - things that require an architecture redesign (certain kinds of inter-app communication) are more than just allowing more freedom on what can be installed.
 
I see your point and don't doubt your knowledge of the platform, however, I don't think you've considered the fact that it might become impossible for people to even stay 100% within the App Store if companies decide to force you have to side load their app or install it from their website, think companies... like Amazon, or a Netflix-type service that could think they have enough pull-power to force that on consumers because of their business reasons.

I personally would say that from someone that just got their first Mac a few months ago, I would've preferred to install everything from the App Store but many of the utilities I needed for professional reasons weren't there. I had to do a lot of digging and researching to make sure those utilities were legit and I wasn't being scammed or getting infected with malware.

So all I'm saying is that I agree Apple goes overboard sometimes with how they handle the App Store, but some of us choose to get an iPhone because we can rely on feeling safer with the apps we install on a device that mind you, never leaves your side and has all of your personal things on it.

And just as a side note, encryption interoperability in messaging sounds like a nightmare and I'm not sure what purpose it would have since you can install those apps anyway.
I read your message in full.

I have considered that (apps leaving the App Store), but we already have a good market example in the Android store. Most apps (99%) are still on that store because it's the main place consumers go to get software. It's not just a safe space to obtain apps but it's a billboard and marketing tool for app discovery.

I don't see that changing. However you brought up about Apps not being on the App Store and it's mainly down to Apple being greedy. They want 30%. So all those small utility apps you had to buy from the developers websites gave those developers more money. If they release on the App Store (the macOS one) there are stipulations about file access, modifying the operating system (which is sometimes required for certain apps to function) stipulations around storing and using files in iCloud and then the 30% fee.

Another big issue with the App Store is it heavily favours subscriptions where as traditionally developers want to release major versions and have users pay a reduced fee to upgrade or just buy the new version. Apple makes this very difficult on the App Store they expect developers to continually update an app once someone buys it one time forever which is not financially sustainable but at the same time consumers don't want to pay a subscription (however small it may be) for an app for the rest of their lives.

One thing I will say is, Apple does have application signing so even apps you get that aren't from the App Store are digitally signed by Apple with the developers certificate they receive when they signup to be an Apple developer and pay their $99 a year. So if you installed software from third party websites and your Mac didn't warn you about it being unsigned you're probably safe unless you're literally installing malware from a torrent site or some such etc
 
No it's not. Something like this is resolved by the government fining you and if need be, freezing your assets and draining your bank accounts. Guns are far from the only force governments can apply. Look at western sanctions on Russia for instance. NATO hasn't fired a single shot at Russia, but they're still coming down severely on Russia through economic measures.


If Google is the only competitor left, that opens the door to literally any other alternative to take Apple's place. I'm sure Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Samsung or any number of other companies would love the opportunity to become a major player in the mobile OS space.
Absolutely, it is. Law is enforced, at the foundation, by men with guns taking your money or putting you in jail.

You’re conflating sanctions with law enforcement. And, even then, what stops Russia from trying to take back the assets is the threat of force against them.
 
Even presuming for the sake of argument that this makes sense, it still doesn’t get you where you want to go.

Your being free to do what you wish with your device doesn’t mean Apple, for example, has to assist you.

Well when it comes to the government and what they enact. It actually does. For instance see the right to repair movement in the USA and how factory and farm equipment makers are being forced to provide repair manuals and replacement parts to independent repair shops and end-users on a state-by-state basis.

For instance in some states even Tesla is having to provide full detailed manuals of every part of their vehicles for repair reasons. This isn't even in the EU, this is the USA.
 
Some of this I am not supportive of. But some of it I am.

I should be allowed to use whatever messaging service I want as default. Same goes for maps, music etc. And if I want to use Firefox as my default, I should be able to actually use Firefox and not a Safari skinned Firefox.

On the otherhand, I dont know how I feel about sideloading. I had an Android for a while and the only app I sideloaded was Vanced. There's just too much risk of something going wrong.
 
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I hope none of the changes affect the security of the device when it comes to wallet, digital id, car key, and home kit. A breach could not just be inconvenient but very harmful for anyone that loses their personal info or access to their car key, etc...

Does the EU have Engineers working with them so that the way theses laws and changes are instituted are safe and assure that customers personal data cannot be accessed?
 
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Well when it comes to the government and what they enact. It actually does. For instance see the right to repair movement in the USA and how factory and farm equipment makers are being forced to provide repair manuals and replacement parts to independent repair shops and end-users on a state-by-state cases.

For instance in some states even Tesla is having to provide full detailed manuals of every part of their vehicles for repair reasons. This isn't even in the EU, this is the USA.
I wish Tesla had been forced to use the common charging port in the US (as they were in Europe) and allow their superchargers to be used by non-Tesla vehicles. They could have charged more to non-teslas charging but it would still have made it worth it because it would have radically improved the usability of electric vehicles in North America.
 
Well when it comes to the government and what they enact. It actually does. For instance see the right to repair movement in the USA and how factory and farm equipment makers are being forced to provide repair manuals and replacement parts to independent repair shops and end-users on a state-by-state cases.

For instance in some states even Tesla is having to provide full detailed manuals of every part of their vehicles for repair reasons. This isn't even in the EU, this is the USA.
You’re moving back and forth between a legal argument and a moral argument.

“Should” is a moral argument. Even if something is made legal, it doesn’t address the moral aspect.

If you mean to say “I want Apple to be forced by law to do X” then say that.
 
Some of this I am not supportive of. But some of it I am.

I should be allowed to use whatever messaging service I want as default. Same goes for maps, music etc. And if I want to use Firefox as my default, I should be able to actually use Firefox and not a Safari skinned Firefox.

On the otherhand, I dont know how I feel about sideloading. I had an Android for a while and the only app I sideloaded was Vanced. There's just too much risk of something going wrong.
I think that it should be the App Store policies that are regulated rather than the existence of the App Store as the sole source of apps. They should be required to have more open policies and there should be an independent EU appeal system for conflicts with apple and the developer.
 
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I’m all for allowing side loading and forcing Apple to make good on its promise me make FaceTime open source. That’s it. Why does iMessage need to work with WhatsApp when I can download WhatsApp instead?

Apple should allow users to download apps outside of the App Store like a Mac, just as long as they are signed Apps (that’s the default setting in macOS)

If non signed apps were to be allowed, they’d have to throw numerous security dialogs at the user and require the user to authenticate with their passcode and faceID or touchID.

If you could make WhatsApp the default messaging app I would agree with you.
The rest of your post - agree.
 
I don't see that changing. However you brought up about Apps not being on the App Store and it's mainly down to Apple being greedy. They want 30%. So all those small utility apps you had to buy from the developers websites gave those developers more money. If they release on the App Store (the macOS one) there are stipulations about file access, modifying the operating system (which is sometimes required for certain apps to function) stipulations around storing and using files in iCloud and then the 30% fee.
Small developers are charged 15%, not 30%.


Do you still think that Apple is being greedy with small developers?
 
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its also just not true that apple doesn't benefit from developers as much as developers rely on apple.
Apple certainly does benefit from developers but the reality is that creating the mobile hardware, OS and App Store is a MUCH more difficult proposition than developing an application. Microsoft tried and failed to do it.
 
Wow I would be furious if I was a company like apple. Imaging the government telling you how to build your product and what you can and can not do with it. F-off Apple is a closed ecosystem for a reason, you want garbage go to android you have a choice. Its insane, its like the govment is in bed with the rest of the industry and are trying to bring their garbage into apple so they can better compete.
 
No, government has no such interest. Take an antitrust class sometime. The goal is almost universally to protect or aid certain competitors, not the consumer.
You say that based on??

"Competition law is the field of law that promotes or seeks to maintain market competition by regulating anti-competitive conduct by companies."

Literally the first sentence from Wikipedia.


"Law is a system of rules created and enforced through social or governmental institutions to regulate behavior"


You might want to retake that class you must have slept through the first day of.
 
You’re moving back and forth between a legal argument and a moral argument.

“Should” is a moral argument. Even if something is made legal, it doesn’t address the moral aspect.
Sure, I believe the 2 trillion dollar company should open up more and I'm glad the EU is forcing their hand. I think we see each others stand on this issue clearer now.
 
You say that based on??

"Competition law is the field of law that promotes or seeks to maintain market competition by regulating anti-competitive conduct by companies."

Literally the first sentence from Wikipedia.


"Law is a system of rules created and enforced through social or governmental institutions to regulate behavior"


You might want to retake that class you must have slept through the first day of.
I say that based on my legal education, law degree, and experience in the field, not a quote from Wikipedia.
 
Small developers are charged 15%, not 30%.


Do you still think that Apple is being greedy with small developers?
The funny thing is, this only happened because of the action of people like EPIC games. Apple did this as a preemptive move to try and stave off regulation.

Which just goes to show that fighting against what they do, works. It pushed them to make a move themselves as a defence mechanism. We should keep pushing until Apple has an online store to buy replacement parts for their devices, an open app store, supports sideloading etc
 
I hereby propose that all residents of the EU be given the right to individually choose the government of their choice, up to 4 times per year. Each citizen can freely choose their official language, alphabet, numbering system, preferred musical scale, set of laws that they will follow, the currency they will use, the amount of taxation they will be charged, to whom such taxes will be paid, and on what such taxes may be spent. Every store, vendor, or other service provider that they frequent will be required to accept payment in whichever currency the citizen chooses and must have staff on hand to speak to the citizen in their language of choice. Children may attend any school they choose, no matter where it is located, and it will be the responsibility of the citizen's chosen government to provide safe and efficient transportation for the children to attend their chosen school.
 
Oh this is a totally great thing that will have no negative effects whatsoever.


It's a shame we can't fine the supporters of this 100% of the damages that will result.
Ya what a disaster macOS is because I can download whatever I want.
 
On the otherhand, I dont know how I feel about sideloading. I had an Android for a while and the only app I sideloaded was Vanced. There's just too much risk of something going wrong.

Which is fine!
You don't use it, but others can.

That's exactly how this should work on peoples computers/devices that they own.

We - not Apple - should be deciding what we do with our devices.
 
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