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Mechcozmo

macrumors 603
Jul 17, 2004
5,215
2
I just can't seem to get over the fact that the undeserving guy got all the love and I couldn't even start a relationship.

Who ever said there was real love there? Don't idealize the past to make the present seem even worse.

I belive the quote is
"Women...
Can't live with 'em.
Pass the beer nuts." :p

I always thought of it more as "Women. Can't live with 'em, can't live with 'em."

I always heard it as, "Women. F*** women."
It's a joke, please don't hate me internet peoples
 

QCassidy352

macrumors G5
Mar 20, 2003
12,028
6,036
Bay Area
As others have said... it's not going to happen. If she's known how you felt for a year, and she hasn't reciprocated those kinds of feelings in any way, it's just not going to happen.

Stop trying to convince yourself that maybe she'll "come around." She won't. Think about it - when was the last time you had a long term, close friend that you gradually grew to be madly in love with? Right - never. It's either there or it's not (TV shows like Grey's Anatomy not withstanding). For you it is, and for her it isn't.

I'm sorry to say this, but like others here, I speak from experience and from a desire not to see you go down this road, because it doesn't end well. You have only one decision to make here - can you stand being her friend, and accepting that it's never going to be any more? If you can, then more power to you. If you can't, then you'd be much, much better off separating yourself from her, sooner rather than later. Again, I really do feel bad for you because this situation sucks, but you need to stop kidding yourself.

And don't despair - it's a cliché, but there will be other women out there who you'll have feelings like this for, and who will have those same feelings for you. It doesn't seem possible now, but again, I speak from experience when I say it is. :)
 

Gelfin

macrumors 68020
Sep 18, 2001
2,165
5
Denver, CO
But I don't get the part about being wrong by doing good things to win her heart. Isn't this what everyone does? I think every guy who ever made a girl fall in love with him, did some nice things just to attract said girl, and not just because they were really nice guys. I don't think anyone's ever been completely selfless when pursuing a relationship. The only difference is that it worked for those guys and it's not working for me. Anyway its effed up, I know, what do I do now? :(

No, there is a major difference, and it has to do with unconditional acceptance. It sounds like a wonderful thing when you say it, but think about it this way:

When your mother tells you that you are a wonderful young man with many good qualities to offer the right young woman, and that she will surely come along someday... do you believe her? Does that boost your self-esteem and give you all the validation you need? Of course it doesn't. It doesn't count because as your mother it's sort of her job to say that.

That's something like the role you've taken. You can't prove anything to her because you're determined to unconditionally tell her she's wonderful. She doesn't need to be handed a victory. She needs to win one. Part of the reason this can't ever change is that you can't back out of this role you've assumed, ever, short of ending the friendship. You cannot be someone's unconditionally accepting confidante and then back out to being a desirable partner to be won over. You can never offer her the validation she's looking for in a lover. That's what the "friend zone" is all about.
 

Iscariot

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2007
2,627
3
Toronteazy
There's a pattern particularly common among serial monogamists where the good-guy/bad-guy role you experienced in your last relationship gets reversed in your next relationship. It's the source of a lot of needless drama.

Poignantly put. This calls to mind the previous post about experience being a necessary component of confident decision making; it takes experience to recognize the potential damage of these types of patterns.

Damn you do make a lot of sense. But I don't get the part about being wrong by doing good things to win her heart. Isn't this what everyone does? I think every guy who ever made a girl fall in love with him, did some nice things just to attract said girl, and not just because they were really nice guys. I don't think anyone's ever been completely selfless when pursuing a relationship. The only difference is that it worked for those guys and it's not working for me. Anyway its effed up, I know, what do I do now? :(

That's not how attraction works. You can't "make" a girl fall in love with you, you either possess the qualities she is looking for, or you don't. It's not working for you because you're not what she's looking for, and you can't change her mind about that.
 

floyde

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 7, 2005
808
1
Monterrey, México
No, there is a major difference, and it has to do with unconditional acceptance. It sounds like a wonderful thing when you say it, but think about it this way:

When your mother tells you that you are a wonderful young man with many good qualities to offer the right young woman, and that she will surely come along someday... do you believe her? Does that boost your self-esteem and give you all the validation you need? Of course it doesn't. It doesn't count because as your mother it's sort of her job to say that.

That's something like the role you've taken. You can't prove anything to her because you're determined to unconditionally tell her she's wonderful. She doesn't need to be handed a victory. She needs to win one. Part of the reason this can't ever change is that you can't back out of this role you've assumed, ever, short of ending the friendship. You cannot be someone's unconditionally accepting confidante and then back out to being a desirable partner to be won over. You can never offer her the validation she's looking for in a lover. That's what the "friend zone" is all about.

Gelfin, are you a psychiatrist? How do you know all this, or where do you get your opinion from? This is not a sarcastic question, btw.
 

dmr727

macrumors G4
Dec 29, 2007
10,414
5,142
NYC
Gelfin, are you a psychiatrist? How do you know all this, or where do you get your opinion from?

I'm going to guess that Gelfin knows this from experience. A lot of people here are giving advice based upon the same. Although what you're going through sucks large amounts of donkey balls, it's not an uncommon experience.
 

motulist

macrumors 601
Dec 2, 2003
4,234
611
Dude, it's time for some tough love:

Be a man. Make a move that either turns you into lovers or ends your "friendship." You're really doing serious harm to yourself by hanging around hoping that the unbearable friendship will magically turn into a romance. Frankly, once you're in the friend zone, it's nearly impossible to get into the romantic zone with a girl. So make a move where you make it clear that you want more from the relationship, and if she doesn't feel the same way then you need to stop being friends with her. Period.

Pinning away for romance while in an unbearable pseudo-friendship is not only harmful to you, but it's morally wrong towards her as well. If you know that she only wants to be friends with you, while at the same time you act as if you're only friends with her (or even act like you're okay with trying to be just friends with her) then you're a bold face liar.

Don't think you're being a "good guy" by trying to stay friends with her while inside you're in agony because you really feel so much more for her. That doesn't make you a good guy, it makes you a manipulating liar who's trying to scheme your way into her heart by falsely acting in a way other than how you really feel just so you can get what you want from her. And if she really was a friend to you, she wouldn't want to stay in a friendship with you if she knew it was causing you unbearable agony.

This is tough love man, I'm giving you the straight deal because I can't stand to see another guy silently suffering in agony over unrequited love with a girl who considers him a "friend." It's really a silent epidemic of suffering that way too many of us have been through in our modern western culture.

Do it because it's the honest thing to do.

Do it for her, because a real friend wouldn't want to make another friend suffer.

Do it for yourself, because you are responsible for your own well being.

Do it for yourself, because you're the one here who's causing yourself all this suffering.

Do it for yourself, because you are a man who needs to take charge of his own life.

Just do it.


You can thank me later. ;)
 

floyde

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 7, 2005
808
1
Monterrey, México
I'm going to guess that Gelfin knows this from experience. A lot of people here are giving advice based upon the same. Although what you're going through sucks large amounts of donkey balls, it's not an uncommon experience.

Well let me start by saying that I now accept that I'm in denial about some things. But still, experience just doesn't cut it for me right now. A lot of people have been using the word "never" like they're holding statistics of every "friend zone" case in the history of mankind. I know everyone's trying to help, but stating that something is an unbreakable rule based only on their personal experience with said rule, is to me as uncertain as any other perspective I've had to deal with so far. I know I'm in my most subjective state of mind right now, but predicting the outcome of my case based on the outcome of someone else's case, doesn't seem entirely objective to me. Also considering that I've condensed a year of story in only 2 or 3 posts.

Anyway, I'm in pretty bad shape right now. I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I guess I'm a bit wary of taking advice from complete strangers on the internet, specially when it's about such a critical part in my life.
 

dmr727

macrumors G4
Dec 29, 2007
10,414
5,142
NYC
but predicting the outcome of my case based on the outcome of someone else's case, doesn't seem entirely objective to me.
.....
Anyway, I'm in pretty bad shape right now. I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I guess I'm a bit wary of taking advice from complete strangers on the internet, specially when it's about such a critical part in my life.

You're right man, it's not completely 100%. But you posted a thread here looking for advice, and unfortunately getting advice from complete strangers is exactly what you can expect as the result of that. Follow the advice or don't, but I do think that people are really giving you the honest truth based on their experience. At this point what happens next is entirely up to you.
 

Iscariot

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2007
2,627
3
Toronteazy
Well let me start by saying that I now accept that I'm in denial about some things. But still, experience just doesn't cut it for me right now. A lot of people have been using the word "never" like they're holding statistics of every "friend zone" case in the history of mankind. I know everyone's trying to help, but stating that something is an unbreakable rule based only on their personal experience with said rule, is to me as uncertain as any other perspective I've had to deal with so far. I know I'm in my most subjective state of mind right now, but predicting the outcome of my case based on the outcome of someone else's case, doesn't seem entirely objective to me. Also considering that I've condensed a year of story in only 2 or 3 posts.

Anyway, I'm in pretty bad shape right now. I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I guess I'm a bit wary of taking advice from complete strangers on the internet, specially when it's about such a critical part in my life.

We're not basing "never" just on personal experience. We're also basing it on basic social interactions and applied psychology. Whether we choose to accept it or not, we are still animals driven by baser instinct with our behaviour further shaped by predictable social constructs. That's why things like NLP work so well. You can't just dismiss the factual basis of our advice on the notion that you're "different", or that you're not communicating the full story. You're not different. You can either accept our advice, or you can continue down this path of lonliness, regret, and not "having your head on straight".
 

digitalnicotine

macrumors 65816
Jan 11, 2008
1,171
40
USA
floyde, try not to take the thoughts expressed here as critical of you as a person. I don't think anyone means to make you feel judged. You seem like a nice guy, and I'm sure we can all relate to feeling a bit sensitive when our personal lives are causing us pain. Take care of yourself, and I hope you start to feel better soon.
 

dmr727

macrumors G4
Dec 29, 2007
10,414
5,142
NYC
And because I'm a couple of Coronas deep and am therefore completely unable to shut my mouth, let me make another comment:

This isn't going to the be the end of the world for you. It might seem like it now, but one day you're going to realize that life will continue even if she's not there. Love can really ***** suck sometimes. I occasionally see some crap that really bugs me. I'll take some guy and his wife and children to Aspen one week, just to take him and his hot 20 year old girlfriend to Vancouver a few weeks later. And this is a guy that the general public has a large amount of respect for. Part of my job is ignoring this crap, but it'd be a sh*tstorm of global proportions if word got out.

Point is, sometimes I feel like love is completely hopeless. But then I look at my wife, whom I love very much, and I feel better. I think she's the most amazing person on the planet. And guess what? There were more than a few women in my past that didn't work out, and after every one I was convinced that I missed my chance at my 'one true love'. I'm glad I was wrong.
 

floyde

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 7, 2005
808
1
Monterrey, México
We're not basing "never" just on personal experience. We're also basing it on basic social interactions and applied psychology. Whether we choose to accept it or not, we are still animals driven by baser instinct with our behaviour further shaped by predictable social constructs. ...

That's fair enough.

floyde, try not to take the thoughts expressed here as critical of you as a person. I don't think anyone means to make you feel judged. You seem like a nice guy, and I'm sure we can all relate to feeling a bit sensitive when our personal lives are causing us pain. Take care of yourself, and I hope you start to feel better soon.

And because I'm a couple of Coronas deep and am therefore completely unable to shut my mouth, let me make another comment:

This isn't going to the be the end of the world for you. It might seem like it now, but one day you're going to realize that life will continue even if she's not there. Love can really ***** suck sometimes. I occasionally see some crap that really bugs me. I'll take some guy and his wife and children to Aspen one week, just to take him and his hot 20 year old girlfriend to Vancouver a few weeks later. And this is a guy that the general public has a large amount of respect for. Part of my job is ignoring this crap, but it'd be a sh*tstorm of global proportions if word got out.

Point is, sometimes I feel like love is completely hopeless. But then I look at my wife, whom I love very much, and I feel better. I think she's the most amazing person on the planet. And guess what? There were more than a few women in my past that didn't work out, and after every one I was convinced that I missed my chance at my 'one true love'. I'm glad I was wrong.

Thanks :(
 

motulist

macrumors 601
Dec 2, 2003
4,234
611
A lot of people have been using the word "never" like they're holding statistics of every "friend zone" case in the history of mankind.

People here are using the word "never" in the sense that in all of our voluminous real world experience the difference between zero and almost zero is nill. Did you ever take a calculus class? There are some equations that you can't figure out using conventional arithmetic and algebra, such as dividing by zero. However, you can get the answer that for all intents and purposes is the correct answer, such as instead of dividing by zero you instead divide by 1^-1000.

It's been shown that it's theoretically possible that all the electrons on the atoms in an aluminum can might by chance all happen to spin in the same direction at the exact same time which would unbalance the can enough to knock it over. However, in the real world you can say that an aluminum can sitting on a desktop on earth's surface will never spontaneously tip over all by itself without some external force acting on it. In an expanse of infinity, this phenomenon not only could happen, it would happen. But in the real world you can safely say it will never ever happen.

In the case of your situation we can tell you he following:

Once a girl considers you a friend you can almost never become lovers.

When a human interaction has primarily been based on one person trying to save another person from a bad situation, that interaction can almost never turn into a healthy long term relationship.

When a guy winds up really liking a girl and spending lots of time and energy on her while he's greatly suffering inside but acting toward her like her rejections aren't killing him inside, then that situation can almost never turn into a healthy long term relationship.

etc.

Now if any of those conditions alone aren't enough to push your situation over the edge from almost never and into the range of really truly never, that still doesn't give your situation a chance of working out because your situation doesn't have any of those conditions alone, it has them all together. When you add all those 'almost never' conditions together into one situation, the result is that we can safely say that in the real world, this situation will never become a healthy long term romantic situation.


I guess I'm a bit wary of taking advice from complete strangers on the internet, specially when it's about such a critical part in my life.

Now of course these opinions aren't based on science, they're based on our personal judgment derived from our collectively vast experience. It's possible that we could be wrong, and it's very good of you to be skeptical of advice given from random strangers on the net. It's your responsibility to consider the advice and evidence from as many disparate places as you can and evaluate them for yourself so that you can make a well informed decision on the choices you have to make in your life.


Anyway, I'm in pretty bad shape right now.

That's exactly why I told you that at this point you need to do whatever will either turn this relationship into a romantic one immediately, or end the communication with her completely. The current unbearable situation is not something you can keep putting yourself through, it is NOT okay to let yourself be in continuous suffering. You have caused yourself way too much harm already. For your own health, future, and mental well being, you have a duty to yourself to resolve this relationship one way or the other.

It is NOT okay to keep yourself in agony.

You MUST immediately resolve this relationship one way or the other.

After you resolve this relationship one way or the other, you WILL know it was the right thing to do.
 

Gelfin

macrumors 68020
Sep 18, 2001
2,165
5
Denver, CO
I'm going to guess that Gelfin knows this from experience. A lot of people here are giving advice based upon the same. Although what you're going through sucks large amounts of donkey balls, it's not an uncommon experience.

Bingo. Truth be told, I may accidentally be the world's foremost expert in what not to do romantically. Turns out, I'm also one of those people who just sort of always seems to end up in an advisor role for his friends' assorted life problems (mostly because I refuse to pull punches). Your story isn't just something I've experienced myself; it's something I must've heard about half a godzillion times from other guys.

And yeah, my experience includes an embarrassingly extensive and painful stint as a "white knight" back in my college days. Fixing that required some pretty extensive introspection, being brutally honest with myself about my own motives and, honestly, actively choosing to spend a longer time than I'd care to admit not even considering dating anyone. Without getting into details, finally kicking myself into changing involved a situation so toxic I couldn't help but realize I was better than the sort of thing I was getting myself into. It was an odd way to get a self-esteem boost, but there it is.

Anyway, I'm in pretty bad shape right now. I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I guess I'm a bit wary of taking advice from complete strangers on the internet, specially when it's about such a critical part in my life.

Understandable to be wary, but what you're going through really is just so much more common an experience than anyone realizes when he's going through it. Yeah, we haven't heard every last detail of your story, but we've all heard this story before. You might as well be reading from a script, including the part where you grasp for any straw you can think of to give yourself permission to ignore the people telling you you're hurting yourself needlessly.

Part of the problem is that you're viewing this as a more "critical" part of your life than it really ought to be. If you ever find yourself in a situation where a woman may or may not want to be involved with you but you think it's critical that she decides to, then you're in way too deep and frankly it's bad for both of you if you don't back off.

I wish like hell I could tell you I had fully figured out what to do, that I had found the love of my life and could offer you step-by-step directions on how to replicate my unbridled success, but honestly I can't tell you any of that. I'm still working on it. But I like to think I'm approaching it in a mature way these days, and getting myself into total disasters is a thing of the distant past.

Best advice I can give you is, don't pin all your hopes on one person, learn to ask people out before you've fallen in love with them, don't set up too many expectations and learn how to take a no without it damaging your self esteem, because you'll hear it a lot. Even the rampantly "successful" guys do. Beyond that, near as I can tell there's still a major element of luck. All you can do is hang in there.
 

Iscariot

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2007
2,627
3
Toronteazy
Turns out, I'm also one of those people who just sort of always seems to end up in an advisor role for his friends' assorted life problems (mostly because I refuse to pull punches). Your story isn't just something I've experienced myself; it's something I must've heard about half a godzillion times from other guys.

That's a role I often fill as well, so much so that I've earned the nickname "doctor [Iscariot]" from many of my friends.
 

fadetoblack86

macrumors newbie
Jan 30, 2006
19
0
it drives me ****in mad when a ****** guy gets the girl you want.

but seriously, move on. if its meant to be then it will happen. even if you feel like you'll miss a chance with her if you start dating someone else.
it will work only when both of you are ready. i know cause i've been in a situation like that.

trust me, you don't want to be "just friends" when you have feelings for her like that. esspecially if you see her with another guy, then you're gonna feel stepped over, worthless and basically hit rock-bottom. and don't think that she'll change. personally the best way to avoid that situation is to avoid her.
 

floyde

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 7, 2005
808
1
Monterrey, México
I've made a decision

After a lot of thinking I've decided to do the following:

I will talk to my friend. I will start by asking the question. I already know the answer, but I have huge regrets in my life and they are mostly about things I didn't do.

After she says no, I'll tell her that right now I'm in no condition to be her friend . That is, I can't see her anymore, not until I get better. I wont stop being her friend completely, I'll tell her that she can come to me for any troubles she might have, just like I would say to any other friend. Hopefully I'll get better before we drift apart :(.

Anyway, all of that is true, it's the only healthy solution, for her and me. I decided this on my own, after hearing different perspectives from my friends and family. I figured I have to make my own decisions, even if they are the wrong ones.
 

Rhosfelt

macrumors 65816
Aug 15, 2007
1,380
1
I don't want to be raped :(
I admit I skipped a few posts, but I have an important question; Does she do things for you too?

Such as take you out if you are feeling sad, or help you in anyway. Maybe there is a reason these other "friends" left her, because she was using them. I have had so much of that it is frustrating, so before I go out of my way I like to think to myself would this person do the same for me? For my real friends I'd undoubtedly say yes, and sometimes everyone does need to take that unrequited hit but you deserve that back too.

I am not saying it is a sure thing to fail, but what I am asking of you, who knows more than any of us, is to take a step back, look around and ask yourself if she is just using you as another therapist, a "shoulder to cry on" who will just do whatever she says, and hangs on every word she says.

Don't be that person, you have your own life to live too. If she is a true friend back by all means stick with it, it really could just be something like she isn't ready or was really scarred by what happened. Just be careful and don't put it all into one hat for now.
 
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