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Lebron James
- Thread starter Truefan31
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If Babe Ruth, Gehrig, etc played for the worst teams, they would still be considered among the best in the game.
Judging a players greatness by championship count is overrated.
Not saying Lebron is better than MJ, but to use championships won is ridiculous.
Judging a players greatness by championship count is overrated.
Not saying Lebron is better than MJ, but to use championships won is ridiculous.
MJ still had a greater supporting cast than Lebron has ever had. If you want to just limit to a Big 3 showdown, I'll take MJ/Pippen/Rodman over LBJ/Wade/Bosh. It's important to note the Bulls were in their prime on their winning streak while Wade and Bosh are on the downhill slope of their careers. Great players, yes, but only LBJ is still in the midst of playing at the highest level.
Even though the NBA is the league where individual players have the most influence on the outcome of games, at the end of it, it's still a team/system game. LBJ can't do it all on his own. His stats were off the charts in the NBA Finals, so you can't blame him. You can blame Bosh for never finding a groove and old man Wade for getting out-hustled and looking lost all series.
Physically, LBJ is a freak. He's a greater athlete than MJ ever was, silly unmeasurable intangibles like "drive" and "grit" excluded.
Even though the NBA is the league where individual players have the most influence on the outcome of games, at the end of it, it's still a team/system game. LBJ can't do it all on his own. His stats were off the charts in the NBA Finals, so you can't blame him. You can blame Bosh for never finding a groove and old man Wade for getting out-hustled and looking lost all series.
Physically, LBJ is a freak. He's a greater athlete than MJ ever was, silly unmeasurable intangibles like "drive" and "grit" excluded.
I couldn't agree less. When Jordan was with Pippen and Rodman, he was still the star of that team - there was no talk of any "big three." He made Pippen look much better than he was. Don't believe me? Look at Pippen's numbers without Jordan as his teammate. He was an average player, at best. Rodman was always a one-dimensional player - he was an absolute beast on defense, but you could count on him to be pretty much no offensive threat whatsoever. Wade and Bosh were all-stars before LeBron joined them. Jordan made his teammates into stars.
I agree with most of this. I'd give the edge to Jordan over LeBron (not by a huge margin, but Jordan gets the edge here), Wade over Pippen, and I think I'd take Rodman over Bosh because I would rather have a hustler/rebounder/defender as opposed to another scorer. People don't give Rodman enough credit. He was an All NBA defender and led the league in rebounding for several years. Not to mention he was just a nuisance for opposing players to go up against.
Of course, MJ had more of a supporting cast than those two guys just like LeBron has had more help than just DWade and Bosh (I'm convinced that they might not win those titles without Mike Miller coming in and hitting like 7-8 3's in one Finals game, Shane Battier hitting 4-5-6 3's in multiple Finals games, and of course Ray Allen hitting "the shot").
While I do agree that LBJ is more of an athletic freak than MJ, I don't consider the "drive" and "grit" intangibles "silly" at all. Things like drive, killer instinct, insatiable desire to win at all costs...those are all things I think LeBron lacks at this point and could benefit from greatly if he possessed those traits. This is why I MIGHT even pick Kobe over LeBron. He is the only guy that can compare with MJ when it comes to killer instinct and an insane drive to win at all costs.
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"Pippen without Jordan (199395)[edit]
Michael Jordan retired before the 199394 season, due to the death of his father James R. Jordan, Sr., and in his absence Pippen emerged from Jordan's shadow. That year, he earned All-Star Game MVP honors and led the Bulls in scoring, assists, and blocks, and was second in the NBA in steals per game, averaging 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.1% from the field and a career-best 32% from the 3-point line. For his efforts, he earned the first of three straight All-NBA First Team selections, and he finished third in MVP voting. The Bulls finished the season with 55 wins, only two fewer than the year before."
Sounds slightly better than average to me. Don't get me wrong, Jordan elevated Pippen's game, but Jordan didn't MAKE Pippen. And Rodman was a beast before getting to Chicago, while he was in Chicago, and he had a couple nice seasons after he left Chicago.
Jordan did win 3 without rodman too. And he was the star on a team that went 72-10.
I think what sets MJ apart from everyone else was the fact that he'd punch your mother in the throat to win. Like he was a real ******* to where he beat up teammates if they messed up. Plus MJ had so many clutch moments. Lebron is an athletic freak but you can't lose 3 nba finals and think you're the greatest.
I think what sets MJ apart from everyone else was the fact that he'd punch your mother in the throat to win. Like he was a real ******* to where he beat up teammates if they messed up. Plus MJ had so many clutch moments. Lebron is an athletic freak but you can't lose 3 nba finals and think you're the greatest.
People who don't like Lebron will use his finals record against him, but like others have said even the best have to have a team around them. Unfortunately for Lebron the rest of the Heat, especially Wade and Bosh, failed to show up and do their part against the Spurs. I don't think Lebron is as good as Jordan, but he is a once in a generation player.
Very true. You have greats in sports like Jim Kelly who lost four Super Bowls but is a deserving hall of famer. You have Sir Charles in basketball. And don't forget all the great players the SF Giants had in their long drought as well as the Boston Red Sox. And recently in the news, the great Tony Gwynn.
I guess the Heat followed LeBron's lead, as he urged them to before the game. I didn't think that was the best pep talk material.
i disagree to an extent. they would be great, but not among the best.
if they hadn't won anything, their legacy wouldn't be even close to be the same.
winning is an essential part of what makes a champion.
there can be great players who don't have a winning legacy, and of course they will be hall of fame inductees and such, but they will never be on the same level of player who actually won titles.
jim kelly someone was mentioning above is a perfect example. had he won those titles, he would be one of the greatest, but he didn't so he is not.
I can see it both ways. I don't think we'd look at MJ the same as we do now if he went 2-4 in the Finals, or something like that. He'd still be thought of as one of the best ever, but I don't know if he'd be up on the same pedestal as he is now.
On the flip side, there are guys like Steve Kerr that have five NBA Championships, and he could probably have zero rings and we'd still think of him the same way as we might think of him now. Just because he has rings doesn't make him great - and if he didn't have rings that wouldn't take away from the fact that he was a fine player.
Eli Manning - 2 time Superbowl champion and 2 time Superbowl MVP...and I will NEVER consider him one of the greatest QB's of all time (or even of current time).
Ted Williams is seen as an all time great, but the Red Sox never won a WS during that time period and his career was shortened due to his WWII service.
But you do have a certain point. What if Mo was still Mo, but on the Royals for example. Wouldn't have that great postseason record or probably as close being the saves record holder. I agree being on the right team helps big time.
But I can't stand this MJ vs LeBron comparison and people say LeBron is not as good as MJ because LeBron is 2-4 during championship series. I can't stand this pedestal people put all time greats on. People HATED when Roger Maris broke Babe Ruth's record for HR's in a season ( and some still do to this day) because they put Ruth on god-like status and his records should never be broken or at least who they appoint worthy of breaking his records.
I don't follow basketball so I can't say if LeBron is better than MJ or not. But using championships won is a BS measure. Championships are a team effort. Yes you need stars( no one expects the no name Astro's to win the WS right now), but you need a team built with good complementing members, etc. So to hold championships over LeBron as a determining factor of if he is better than MJ or not is not fair considering he wasn't on a very good team to begin with( Cleveland and we can see how much LeBron was able to carry them after their horrible seasons since he left).
i certainly agree that championship are not the sole metric to measure and athletes 'greatness', but they are an important one, especially as you move to the very elite of a sport.
as far as lebron vs MJ. i think at the moment it is still MJ, but the fact that we are even having a discussion is pretty significant.
lebron is 2-4, but he still has many years to improve that record.
if MJ had lost some of the titles he won, his legacy would be diminished
as far as lebron vs MJ. i think at the moment it is still MJ, but the fact that we are even having a discussion is pretty significant.
lebron is 2-4, but he still has many years to improve that record.
if MJ had lost some of the titles he won, his legacy would be diminished
Lebron James
I think championships matter a lil more in basketball. Yes it's a team game but it's more individual than baseball and football IMO. The fact that MJ is 6-0 in finals ( never went to a game 7 in any of them) supports his argument. He's been clutch since the Carolina freshman title game. His other accolades help too like 10x scoring title, 6 nba finals mvps, etc
I think championships matter a lil more in basketball. Yes it's a team game but it's more individual than baseball and football IMO. The fact that MJ is 6-0 in finals ( never went to a game 7 in any of them) supports his argument. He's been clutch since the Carolina freshman title game. His other accolades help too like 10x scoring title, 6 nba finals mvps, etc
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I am a LeBron fan and at this point I would rank Jordan ahead of him. However, LeBron is only 29. What if he goes to the finals four more times and wins them all? That would be six titles and nine finals overall. That would make the conversation pretty interesting, even if it is unlikely to happen.
You're wrong about Pippen. 100% wrong. Pippen was more than a star in his own right.
Pippen was great without Jordan - while still in his prime. He may have stunk at the end, just like Wade stinks now at the end of his career. Wade was over the hill when the Big 3 all signed - now he's well on his way down. There's no way he uses his player option to opt out - he won't get anything on the open market. He'll play his deal out and maybe sign a vet minimum after, if he even lasts that long.
I'm pretty confident Lebron will stay in Miami. I'm pretty sure chalmers will go and maybe a few others. I think Lebron really wants to win bad and will take a salary cut to win some more championships. I'm pretty sure wade and bosh need to take dramatic cuts as well hence their performance. Being from Miami I sure hope he stays. I'm surrounded by Spurs fans being stationed in the military in Texas and this was a rough one to swallow.
I'd like to see LeBron stay in Miami and give Pat Riley a chance to put another team around him.
Idk. I think bosh won't take that much of a cut. Be better if bosh went elsewhere like Dallas. But who does Miami get that will help them honestly?
I honestly think they would've beat okc in a final. But the spurs are too good fundamentally. Wouldn't surprise me if spurs made it again to the finals, barring health and everyone being back. Don't see Miami beating spurs next year either. Melo isn't the answer cuz he's allergic to defense
Was a real shame to see Lebron not get the help he needed. San Antonio played as a team and it clearly showed. As they continued to double and triple team Lebron it became evident who was the key to Miami.
I just think Miami needs to build a better team around him and their will be a different player on the court. Even better.
I just think Miami needs to build a better team around him and their will be a different player on the court. Even better.
Considering my Warriors and their woes, LeBron has not had a bad career so far with five trips to the big dance. He has multiple championships so what's the fuss? He's not Jordan, OK, but quite possibly the next best thing since the great one.
In baseball you have the Yankees who have dropped more than one WS in a decade as well as the New England Patriots losing more than one Super Bowl in a decade and nobody is talking about that as a bad thing because those teams also won more than a championship, too during that period like the Miami Heat. I think of the Heat much like I do the Yankees or the Patriots where you win some and you lose some and that's usually the nature of sports.
This whole thing of Chicago going with six wins in six tries in the championships is an anomaly in sports in recent years and Jordan is a hero in American sports totally unlike any other sports heroes here. He knows what it's like to be in several championships but does not know what it's like to lose in one which make the Jordan era Bulls unique and unlike anything we are likely to see in a very long time. The last time I can remember that type of sure fire winning dominance was when the Niners went five for five in Super Bowl attempts during the Montana, Young and Rice years.
Like him or hate him, we are likely to see LeBron in the Finals again and add points and assists to his already lofty totals.
In baseball you have the Yankees who have dropped more than one WS in a decade as well as the New England Patriots losing more than one Super Bowl in a decade and nobody is talking about that as a bad thing because those teams also won more than a championship, too during that period like the Miami Heat. I think of the Heat much like I do the Yankees or the Patriots where you win some and you lose some and that's usually the nature of sports.
This whole thing of Chicago going with six wins in six tries in the championships is an anomaly in sports in recent years and Jordan is a hero in American sports totally unlike any other sports heroes here. He knows what it's like to be in several championships but does not know what it's like to lose in one which make the Jordan era Bulls unique and unlike anything we are likely to see in a very long time. The last time I can remember that type of sure fire winning dominance was when the Niners went five for five in Super Bowl attempts during the Montana, Young and Rice years.
Like him or hate him, we are likely to see LeBron in the Finals again and add points and assists to his already lofty totals.