Lenovo X1 Extreme

[c0ppo]

Great ! Can’t wait to read your detailed comparison!

I’m curious to see how they perform in day-to-day usage and how well the software is in harmony with the hardware. A good comparison would also be on how well they manage their thermals (especially when connected to an external screen if you have one, it’s a concerning issue with the MBP 16). Lastly, how good the battery life is.

Thank you!

In my office I use HP 340c ultrawider + portable 15.6" 4K Display. At home I use Dell u2713, and LG 5K is on the way to me as we speak.
Both will be used connected to those monitors

Serves only to push me more to an AMD solution, getting a little old with Intel, it's vulnerabilities and lack of any real progress...

Hopefully next year there will be far more AMD notebooks on the market that will "fit the bill"...

Q-6

Well, this one is for you then. Full desktop ryzen inside a laptop

XMG APEX 15

› 15.6" Full HD IPS | 144 Hz › max. AMD Ryzen 9 3950X | 2.6 – 4.2 GHz › max. NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 Refresh | 8 GB GDDR6 › max. 64 GB DDR4 RAM | 2666 MHz

bestware.com

 

[grmlin]

Just a quick question @c0ppo do you need a fully installed Windows installation to update firmware and whatnot on a Thinkpads or can you do this with Linux?

I can't wait much longer and a Thinkpad P53/X1E (still undecided) looks like a solid choice the longer Dell takes to release it's new machines...

Thanks!

 

[c0ppo]

Just a quick question @c0ppo do you need a fully installed Windows installation to update firmware and whatnot on a Thinkpads or can you do this with Linux?

I can't wait much longer and a Thinkpad P53/X1E (still undecided) looks like a solid choice the longer Dell takes to release it's new machines...

Thanks!

No, everything works like a charm via Linux.
For example, all updates + firmware upgrades are done with a simple one click via app store. Way easier and better then even on windows 10. Updates are done the same way MacOS updates happen. You will get a notification that an update is available, just click it and it's done.

Unless it's a firmware or bios update, you won't even need to restart the laptop.

Lenovo treats Linux as first class citizen.

 

[grmlin]

Now that's cool. I do of course know how updates work (one of the reasons you have to love linux), but I didn't know that Lenovo distributes updates like this, too. I only remember older days where you needed a Windows installation to update firmware etc. on laptops.
Thanks!

 

[c0ppo]

Not a problem. If I can help in any way, just ask

 

[grmlin]

You can tell me if I would like the P1/X1E or P53 more

I just want a device that's less noisy than my MBP from 2019. I won't need 128GB of ram and crazy GPUs, I would get the default P53 with 6 cores and the T1000. Just to have the quieter machine.

 

[c0ppo]

You can tell me if I would like the P1/X1E or P53 more

I just want a device that's less noisy than my MBP from 2019. I won't need 128GB of ram and crazy GPUs, I would get the default P53 with 6 cores and the T1000. Just to have the quieter machine.

Never used P53 or any of those workstations. I generally don't like full sized keyboards on laptops. In that case, trackpad isn't in the center.

There are those small things but that make HUGE difference, and they are all subjective. So no one can help you there but yourself

P.S.
If it will help, X1E is really silent under Ubuntu 20.04. And by silent I mean, I can't even hear it most of the times. Only times my fans ramp up are when I'm pushing it. But I've undervolted the CPU, and set up my TLP to my liking.
But all of this can be done on P53 as well

 

[grmlin]

I don't like full size keyboards either, but I'm sure I would get used to it. It will be better than the MacBook keyboard in any way
I should probably try the X1E first, as Lenovo has a 14 day return policy.

I'm also not really sure if it's a good idea to get a brand spanking new machine on release (the new Dell), if you want to run Linux on it. It will probably take a while until everything works.

 

[c0ppo]

I have no experience with Dell laptops at all. They look great, actually, they look better then X1E. But looks aren't everything, and I don't trust Dells quality at all. On the other hand, you can actually 'feel' the quality with thinkpads. And they are really rugged and great devices all around. Not saying dell isn't, honestly, maybe I'm having my own subjective prejudices against Dell here.

But if you have a 14 day return policy, use it. 14 days is more then enough to test the laptop imho. I wish I could have such great opportunity. No returns at all where I live

 

[c0ppo]

I'm testing MBP16 vs X1E. So far, MBP16 doesn't spin fans like crazy when connected to external displays. It's really silent, no issues there at all. I will post my findings in a week or so, but it's funny to use LG 5K with X1E. It works without any issues, just like it works on macs. Minus the controls, since I can't control brightness or volume.

But nVidia control utility shows LG 5K as two displays. But the display itself does behave like a single display, so really, no issues at all

Picture attached for those who are interested.

 

[grmlin]

It’s totally crazy to me that LG sells this display without any controls whatsoever. A shame, really

 

[c0ppo]

It’s totally crazy to me that LG sells this display without any controls whatsoever. A shame, really

Well, to be hones, it's basically a display for macs, and there you can control everything.
Since I use mac mini as well, I will just set it up the way I want, and leave it be.

Other than that, this is a fantastical display. It's as crisp as it can be. I really love it for now

 

[grmlin]

Of course it’s fantastic, that’s why it’s such a shame that you can’t buy it in a version as a non Mac user.

 

[c0ppo]

Here is a side by side picture of MBP and X1E.
When you have them together like this, I really wish Lenovo would just abandon 16:9 aspect ratio. MBP 16 screen is way better when compared to X1E 4K, and you have more space to work with.

I still like Mac OS very much, but even after this short time I know I'm not going back. Touch Bar is annoying, really annoying. It gets in the way of my actual work, and there is no way around it except using an external keyboard.

'New' keyboard on MBP is good. But still nowhere near thinkpad keyboard.
This MBP has 2TB of storage, AMD Radeon 5500M 8GB, 32GB RAM... So really great specs. And pricey. For the price of this one, I can almost buy two of X1E with better configuration.

But touchbar is what kills it for me completely.

P.S.
Sorry for the messy room

 

[grmlin]

There will never be a point in my life as a developer, where the Touchbar will be anything else than a handicap. I hate it, it's terrible, and the fact that Apple never improved this thing software wise since release is just mind boggling.

Nice setup you have there though.

Good luck with the 16"! I hear about a lot of problems with kernel panics, noisy fans etc. But I agree, 16:9 screens have to go away.

 

[c0ppo]

Good luck with the 16"! I hear about a lot of problems with kernel panics, noisy fans etc. But I agree, 16:9 screens have to go away.

It's not mine, and I won't be keeping it.
Honestly, it's a lovely machine. But for my own needs, X1E is better. So even now I know I will be sticking with X1E. I would lie if I said that I'm not tempted, but touch bar is a compromise I'm not willing to take.

 

[grmlin]

Never used P53 or any of those workstations. I generally don't like full sized keyboards on laptops. In that case, trackpad isn't in the center.

There are those small things but that make HUGE difference, and they are all subjective. So no one can help you there but yourself

P.S.
If it will help, X1E is really silent under Ubuntu 20.04. And by silent I mean, I can't even hear it most of the times. Only times my fans ramp up are when I'm pushing it. But I've undervolted the CPU, and set up my TLP to my liking.
But all of this can be done on P53 as well

Just wanted to say: we will try my luck with a nice P53. Probably ordering next week. I know that it will work well with Linux and all early issues should be figured out at this point. I'll make a thread about it if anyone is interested once I got it.

All of you have a nice weekend!

 

[c0ppo]

Has anyone of Linux users noticed latest Lenovo announcements?
Lenovo already has great Linux support. In some areas even better then Windows support (like easier BIOS and firmware updates), but it seems they are going all in with Linux support. All of lenovo workstations and thinkpads will be going this route. Now what that means is ordering Lenovo computers with Linux preinstalled, without Windows 10 at all. Fingerprint sensor working, Lenovo Vantage on Linux, etc.

Guess I'm gonna have to become a Lenovo fanboy now

 

[grmlin]

They are using Fedora though, and if I understood correctly, you'll have to mess around with Nvidia drivers after getting it because Fedora does not include proprietary software.
I hope the software and tools will be available for other distributions, too.

I'm eagerly waiting for my P53 Can't wait to use it! Will run Pop_OS, of course. It has been such a great experience over the last months for me.

 

[c0ppo]

They are using Fedora though, and if I understood correctly, you'll have to mess around with Nvidia drivers after getting it because Fedora does not include proprietary software.
I hope the software and tools will be available for other distributions, too.

I'm eagerly waiting for my P53 Can't wait to use it! Will run Pop_OS, of course. It has been such a great experience over the last months for me.

Nope, not just Fedora. Fedora was announced a month ago.
Now they are letting you choose of Red Hat or Ubuntu LTS preinstalled. And they are opening forums for just Linux users. Also they will help you configure your PC/laptop for your specific workflow. They will have advisors for that. And a lot of other goodies just for Linux users.

Now, all that takes a lot of man power and resources. And Lenovo is devoting that to Linux. They say that they see spike of Thinkpad users with Linux, mainly in developer and scientific field. Out of 250 million computers sold last year, 8 million are using Linux as their OS. So they are aiming for those 8 million.

And if they stick with their plan, linux could actually grow in marketshare. Because a lot of people are afraid of Linux. But if it comes with support and preinstalled from someone like Lenovo, and at a lower cost (remember, no win10 licence), some will try it out.

 

[grmlin]

This is awesome, I missed that.

I mean, Dell sells their business machines with Ubuntu for years now. Great to see Lenovo doing it too

 

[c0ppo]

So after almost a month, I can finally say something constructive on MBP16 vs X1E.
First of let me start by saying that this will be very subjective opinion. I'm not reviewing devices, and I honestly can't do that. What I can do is just say how they compare to me and for my usage.

MBP 16 is really a great laptop. Screen on MBP 16 is way better then screen on X1E. Mostly because it's 16:10 aspect ration, and it's larger. But also brightness is higher, it's easy to notice even in my office. Also, battery life on MBP16 is WAY better then on X1E. I can easily go beyond 8h of working on MBP16 without external screen. But only if I'm developing mobile apps. If I turn on Unity or Godot (game engines), well, I can get around 6h or so.

On X1E I'm lucky if I get 4h under Ubuntu while doing mobile apps (flutter, likewise on MBP). Under windows 10 I can get around 5h30min max. While doing game dev stuff, it becomes way worse. In this category MBP16 wins easily.

As far as noise goes, both are good. I see that a lot of people complain about noise on MBP16 while connected to external display. But even though temps do raise, and fan rpm does raise, I can only hear fans while in really silent room, and if I put my ear next to MBP. So my unit probably got lucky with fans.

X1E is likewise almost dead silent most of the time. Both will ramp up fans while being pushed. And that's to be expected. But neither has some irritating fan noise.

All is great so far... But where X1E easily wins is keyboard. MBP16 returned to the old magic keyboard, but key travel is still too shallow for my taste. And what completely destroys MBP16 is the touch bar. I can't really express my frustration with that gimmicky thing. It completely ruins my workflow. In order to be productive with MBP16, I really have to use external keyboard.

Another thing is lack of ports. I get 2x TB3 ports with X1E. More then enough for me. But I also get almost all other ports one can need or want. In MBP it's just usb-c. And that is something one can deal with, but I refuse to do so.

I love Linux. I love every aspect of it, except one. You won't find a lot of apps MacOS or Windows have. Like Adobe, MS Office, Affinity, etc. And some of those apps I use every day, and I need them. But with X1E I can simply boot to windows10 when needed, and use linux rest of the time. It's a compromise I'm willing to take.

MBP16 is really great. But touch bar is simply compromise I'm not willing to take. I'm the kind of guy that really needs function keys. I'm a developer, and most developers use functions keys a lot. And I do mean a lot.

Seeing that Apple is stuck with touch bar, and they have no intentions on dropping that gimmick, or at least offer a choice, I'm afraid my time with Apple is probably completely done. At least for now.

And during the time away from apple, I've found love for Linux. I love customization options, I love that I can change DE just for fun, I love command line and all available tools for command line... I love it.

 

[grmlin]

Thanks for the write up, deserves it's own thread maybe?

My absolutely awful experience with the Apple service here in Germany (the 15" my office bought for me last summer has now been out for repairs for 6 weeks. It's gone for the 3rd time now, already away for 2 1/2 weeks again), the terrible butterfly keyboard and the touchbar killed MacBooks for me. It makes me sad. I'm typing this on my 6 year old MBP from 2014 which has been such a reliable machine. It got really slow in the end and straight up sucked connected to 4K screens, but here on my lap it's still perfectly fine.

In the end all this showed me the beauty of Linux That's something at least. I can't wait for a laptop with a functional keyboard, tons of ports and good service + upgradeability.

 

[th0masp]

I am also in the camp abandoning the Macbooks (currently still running the MBP). For my next laptop I want access to SSD, RAM, battery and certainly don't want to deal with any of that T2 hassle I keep hearing about. Linux is the future OS of choice.
One thing about these Lenovos though that I'm concerned about is the trackpad. Looks pretty small (of course the newer 15 inch MBPs have absolutely ridiculously sized ones in comparison) and also has buttons (ewww). Can you go button-less and use multiple fingers on the trackpad and what does it feel like - glass surface or not?

Another thing that worries me is the build quality - case and hinge specifically. All the Mac laptops in my family still look and work almost like new, even the 10+ year old ones. Basically you have to look rather closely for small scratches or those shiny sections on the keyboard to be able to tell that they have seen regular use.

Have to say most PC laptops I've encountered looked like a battered war horse after a few years - and their trackpads sucked in terms of features (with Windows drivers) and for lack of glass surfaces.

 

[grmlin]

Windows trackpads are still nowhere near as good as Apple trackpads... it's much better than a few years ago, thanks to Microsoft precision drivers and glass trackpads, but Apple trackpads are still in a league of it's own.

My MacBooks always look used after a while. Keycaps loose it's coating, you can find scratches and battle scars in the aluminum body... stuff like that. Pretty sure an higher end Thinkpad for example will be just as sturdy. And, other than a MacBook, you can repair pretty much everything.