Leopard's Software Update......what the hell?

Discussion in 'macOS' started by wiz7dome, Mar 26, 2008.

  1. wiz7dome macrumors regular

    wiz7dome

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    #1
    I have a question that I cannot find a sufficient answer to anywhere.

    Why did apple change the way Software Update works?

    I cannot understand such a boneheaded move for the life of me. Before updating to 10.5 I could run the updates automatically or manually, but in either case it INSTALLED the update in the background allowing me to work. When it was finished and time for me to restart (if applicable) I could restart the machine and be back up and running in less than 90 seconds.

    Not anymore! :mad::mad:

    Now I have to click restart and watch all my apps shut down while the oh so special Software Update progress window tell me that its updating. W.......T........F!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:


    Why? I mean why must I lose productivity to the SW? What was so damn wrong about downloading a PKG in the background quietly and installing only alerting me when it was time to restart?



    IF this isn't characteristic of Windows, I dont know what is. I don't know if the apple boards will accept a post about it, but damn sure will send feedback about it!!!


    Has anyone else been annoyed by this new S.U. behavior?
     
  2. ScoobyMcDoo macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    #2
    My observation is this is nothing new. It just depends on the nature of the update. My guess is that if the update touches kernel modules or certain system files, it needs everything to stop for a while.

    I don't recall ever seeing it shut stuff down while it downloads, thought - just during the install portion.
     
  3. wiz7dome thread starter macrumors regular

    wiz7dome

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    #3
    Its VERY different from any version of 10.4 (I still a G4 running on). I understand that in some cases the .pkg would be installed after the restart, unless Im mistaken. But essentially Im logged out to default Leopard background and treated the the actions listed in my post.

    It took 10 minutes to install the updates after downloading them. Before you'd actually see what the SW was doing in the progress bar (installing, optimizing etc).
     
  4. todd2000 macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Location:
    Danville, VA
    #4
    If your busy doing something, then don't run Software Update! Problem solved.
     
  5. gnasher729 macrumors P6

    gnasher729

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    #5
    I don't know if you realized that you don't actually have to click "restart" right there and then. Click on "restart" at any time that is convenient to you, just before your lunch break, before you leave work, or before you go to bed.
     
  6. kkat69 macrumors 68020

    kkat69

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Location:
    Atlanta, Ga
    #6
    Nope, not here. From my Tiger experience it only does what you describe if it HAS to run a certain way. Maybe the latest updates (the ones your noticing) have had to run this way. I've come across a few in Tiger that had to run that way, but quite a bit in Leopard did NOT run this way and I was "up and running in 90 seconds" as you put it.

    Seems to depend on the update, i.e., what's inside, what it updates, and how it updates. It did the same in Tiger so it seems.

    You may just be consciously noticing this via certain updates, but a good bit didn't do this, even some of the restart ones.
     
  7. cb31 macrumors member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    #7
    What I don't understand is why you have to restart virtually every time you get an update. On our hundreds of Solaris and Linux servers at work they are hardly ever restarted despite getting loads of patches installed all the time. All variations of Unix so what is wrong with OS X?
     
  8. jaw04005 macrumors 601

    jaw04005

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Location:
    AR
    #8
    In Tiger, updates that required a restart could be installed without an immediate restart. You could just ignore the dialog box prompting you to restart your machine (or force quit the software update application).

    However, that's changed in Leopard. Updates that require a restart are now installed upon shut down. I would imagine this has to do with making sure the update is run properly and no other applications/services are interrupting it.

    As others have said, updates that don't require a restart continue to run within the software update application..
     
  9. clevin macrumors G3

    clevin

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    #9
    well, one of the parts apple need to improve obviously. Too many normal updates "touch the kernel", which Im wondering if is really necessary.
     
  10. QuarterSwede macrumors G3

    QuarterSwede

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Location:
    Colorado Springs, CO
    #10
    The only thing they really changed was adding a progress bar so you could actually see relatively how long it was going to take to install. You're probably just noticing it more because of that. Also, all downloading is done in the background before a restart window is shown.
     
  11. kevo0822 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    New England
    #11
    I know this probably sounds crazy, but maybe the changed from the Tiger version of Software Update because 10.5 is not Tiger... it's a different operating system, with new operating systems come changes which require software to respond to differently.

    Plus, there's a reason Apple added a "Restart Later" button... It was so you could click it... and not have to restart your computer when your productivity can't be sacrificed. Click that button next time and I bet your computer won't compromise your productivity for a devastating 90 seconds.

    Regardless though, if Software Update is such a horrible thing to deal with, there's no law requiring you to run it...
     
  12. clevin macrumors G3

    clevin

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    #12
    kinda, its more about how much has been changed, and if this change is really reasonable.
     
  13. wiz7dome thread starter macrumors regular

    wiz7dome

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    #13
    This is my central point. I am not a new OS X user. I've been using Mac's regualarly since 10.1

    As the Jaw04005 stated, you could always run the S.U. and force quit the installer once it was finished if you were still working. IF you did decide to restart at that point, the updates were not started at that point causing the restarting process to take more time, while I sit and wait, and wait, and wait.

    Consider if I downloaded a combo update outside of S.U. I open the .dmg to find a .pkg file. When I install the file, the installer will not ask me to restart until its actually ready to restart.

    Restart should restart OS X NOT start the install.

    The reason I bring this up is because one of OS X strongest point is workflow.


    We all have complaints that at times seem or sound petty. Among the classics are such hits as: why are Safari's scroll bars still aqua, translucent menu bars etc, when will apple change the finder (I never got that one personally) etc.

    My complaint is more along the lines of "If it ain't broke dont fix it"

    For example, very few apps require an installer. For the most part it's drag n drop from a .dmg. IF developers including Apple started requiring an installer for even the most basic of applications, that would represent a change in workflow. Its a change in why people rave about OS X just letting you work.

    [/rant]...........*for now*
     
  14. heatmiser macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    #14
    Part of why I rarely perform updates is precisely due to these interruptions. I prefer not to reboot except when necessary, and when every software update requires a restart of my computer, it makes me wonder what the point was of switching from that other OS that required constant patches and rebooting.
     
  15. anthonyjr macrumors regular

    anthonyjr

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    #15
    You're all being babies. What's two minutes of your life to ensure your update is installed correctly?

    Don't press restart if you don't want to restart. =]
     
  16. wiz7dome thread starter macrumors regular

    wiz7dome

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    #16
    The question is "Is it necessary?"

    Seeing how it didn't function this way before. I hold OS X to higher standards than that other OS that isn't Linux. When I choose to empty the trash, I want to *gasp* empty the trash. When I update the software and it ask me to restart, i expect it to restart. There is a BIG difference between an installer running hidden in the back ground while im working and the installer ONLY running when I decide to restart the Mac.


    The difference is in the approach and direction of OS X's development. Dont get me started on why we no longer see a "Mac OS X loading window". I know that we don't need to see a visual cue, but it certainly is better than looking at 3 shades of empty blue screen. Once again its not needed, but it was a cue. When that cue disappeared my desktop appeared a second later.

    I get installer visual cues while "restarting" at the same time NOT being able to do anything, but when I cold start or actually reboot I get 3 shades of empty screen. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Makosuke macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Location:
    The Cool Part of CA, USA
    #17
    It's funny, because not only had I noticed this change, I PREFER it.

    Thing is, near the top of the "ways to make sure your install goes smoothly" is not doing anything during the install. Hell, MacFixIt recommends rebooting in safe mode just to do the install. I think that's overkill, but it may well be smart--they'd know better than I. And I am careful--I quit stuff, install, reboot, just to make SURE that I don't screw anything up, because that tiny chance isn't worth the saved, what, 60 seconds, which I can use to go to the bathroom or get a snack.

    I look at it this way: The vast majority of OSX users just click "install" when an update shows up. The vast majority don't really know any more about the update process than that.

    This may be totally wrong, but let's say the chance of anything going wrong after an install is 0.01% if you install without anything running, and 0.03% if you do so with stuff running. Assuming that's true, then forcing these "average" users to not have anything running during the install process will reduce problems by a factor of three. Yes, they're small absolute numbers, but it's going to improve those folks' experience at the cost of a small amount of extra time (what, 60 seconds for most installs?).

    Totally worth it from my perspective--it's one less potential location for things to go wrong.

    And yes, I know that it's entirely possible to write an OS that can update nearly anything "live," but that's not what Apple has done, and I'm not going to cry over the cumulative 24 minutes of annoyance per year.
     
  18. clevin macrumors G3

    clevin

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    #18
    If apple is really that "caring" about average users, you would expect them to fix the problem with TM, Wi-Fi 6 months ago..

    lol, It is NOT the problem. its not like there is no other places gone wrong already.

    Call it technologically weak, if you like. ;)
     
  19. heatmiser macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    #19
    Ha! This is so true. At least with Windows, I knew what was going on when the computer booted. With OS X, I'm either trying to tell if that grey/blue shade means it's starting or not or counting the number of times the gear turns or wondering if I saw the grey apple at boot...very counterintuitive. Sometimes my Macbook just doesn't start; the only way to tell in under a minute is the fact that the fan keeps getting noisier while the screen doesn't change from indecipherable hue 1 to indecipherable hue x+/-1. Think Different™ indeed.
     
  20. dejo Moderator

    dejo

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    #20
    EVERY software update? Okay, now you're just exaggerating. And avoiding constant patches and rebooting was the only reason you switched? Let's not be disingenuous here.
     
  21. heatmiser macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    #21
    Yes, every software update. I don't update for things I don't use, like iLife or Safari, or for things I don't need new versions of, like iTunes. Everything else is pretty much "security" stuff or patches or version updates--you know, stuff we're supposed to update Or Else. All of that requires rebooting.

    Avoiding patches and rebooting *was* one of the primary reasons I switched; I wanted an OS whose makers weren't constantly bugging me to update my computer so Bad Things wouldn't happen. I like long uptimes, and the only ways I can get those on OS X is if I skip the majority of updates that Apple sends my way.

    To be fair, I never installed any Windows updates besides the service packs. But I know they sent "vital" updates every week or so, and I thought (mistakenly) that Apple didn't do that sort of thing so often. Yes, I was duped. No, it's not enough to make me go back to Windows...
     

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