Licensing FairPlay (Apple iTunes DRM)

[emotion]

I didn't say I supported AllofMP3's way to do their shady business, I meant that legal downloading should be modelled like AllofMP3 AND that the artists should get paid.

Ok fair enough iJaz.

 

[hokka]

I didn't say I supported AllofMP3's way to do their shady business, I meant that legal downloading should be modelled like AllofMP3 AND that the artists should get paid.

If only we live in the perfect world, every business is out there for it's own interest - Jon, Record Company and AllofMP3 included. time to wake up and smell the coffee guys!

 

[emotion]

It's your track alright, but why is he selling the key to others so they can unlock your door as well?? like I said, he's trying to get rich via your house.

Well if his approach is legal (as reported) he might not be doing this. Though I do take your point.

---
See, I get the impression that Apple are not that keen on DRM either. It's just that the big music and film companies need that reassurance so that they do business with Apple.

 

[Queso]

dynamicvworking out the key from the lock and pass onto another locksmith to make an exact copy to open a house or allow others to tour your house for free is not wrong? gee, what's the point of the lock on you door? what's the point of any password on your keychain (access)?

Stop trying to fight DRM, ignore it or don't buy the crap in the first place

Whether you agree with me or not, that's the way the legal world sees it. Reverse engineering is quite common.

 

[cecildk9999]

I dunno; the way these articles make it sound, people had to buy their iPods because they already had large iTunes accounts, and it was the only way to listen to their music. But of course it was the other way around, that the store was the result of the iPod. I suppose it would be nice to have the option to put my purchased iTunes mp3s on a different player (although I don't see myself doing it), but I agree with everyone about the integration and ease of use keeping the iTunes market strong. And unless other mp3 players can be easily synched with your iTunes playlists and music, the whole DRM thing seems pretty moot to me. The iPod is iConic (couldn't help myself ); it'll take a lot of great word of mouth and aggressive marketing by other companies to even take a real bite out of Apple.

 

[IlluminatedSage]

The point is, Apple needs to show labels that the ITMS is selling music in order to persuade the labels to sign and renew agreements.\

Additionally, it will continue to be very difficult for any other company to kill Apple on price per track, as the labels are already pressuring Apple to bump the prices up. Newcomers will of course feel that same pressure.

Apple has a lead because itunes / ipod system is the best.

That said, i have no problem with ipod, nor Itunes. if other stores want to sell product to be used on ipod, wrapped in drm? gluck to them. but i don't think illegally coming up with a workaround is right.

Apple has a right to a closed drm. it is free market, and other companies shouldnt be able to force the issue. BUT i do believe apple ought to open up more on it. Allow other companies to offer fairplay protected content. ie, record labels, to allow them to sell protected cd's, with software to allow NO COPYING, but allow albums to be ripped into itunes, but WITH DRM.

i do not believe drm is evil. Artists and labels need to protect against illegal copying. they have a right to their work being thought of as valued. and not something to be stolen or given away freely.

 

[donlphi]

IMPO This is a load of crap. The reason why iPOD works so well is because it does have limitations (not many). The next thing you know, everybody can create an "iTUNES store", requiring you to upgrade the firmware, software, etc. on your iPOD, computer, and whatever else you have attached to your "system".

When your iPOD stops working or seems bogged down, who gets the blame? APPLE, it's a crock.

As a high school music teacher (band and guitar) I see a lot of iPODs throughout the day. A student tells me he downloaded some bootleg copy of a Paul McCartney song from Limewire (which I don't use- I don't work for free, neither did my parents, neither should musicians), and when he goes to play it, it freezes and resets. OF COURSE, the kid blames APPLE. It's not the corrupted file he dropped into his iPOD.

Point being... it's an Apples product, they give the tech support. They shouldn't have to support every DRM on the market. EVEN IF IT GIVES ME MORE CHOICE, it's a huge step backwards.

Quality control... where's big brother when you need him.

There is a reason you can't put Chevy parts into a BMW.

 

[hokka]

Whether you agree with me or not, that's the way the legal world sees it. Reverse engineering is quite common.

we'll see...

 

[flipperfeet]

Damn. Exactly what I was going to say... down to the letter. So I shall repeat with different words to those listening:

Apple makes pennies on the iTMusicS (the story might be different for shows and games). Some people want to own an iPod, but don't want to pay iTS store prices or use their $0.99/song, end of story, model. Solution: buy mp3, d/l mp3 illegally, buy FairPlay elsewhere. With exception of Real Harmony, the last option has not existed.

Where Apple makes the money is iPod sales. HUGE money. However, Apple can't promote the three aforementioned options outright, not when it has the largest FairPlay (and altogether) legal music d/l store on the 'net. So the only thing they can do is not dissuade people from using the other options... forcefully, at least. All I remember Apple saying about Real Harmony was "they're hackers with questionable methods," or something like that.

As Mr. Green said, the only risk I would see is if others tried to make a FairPlay compatible "mp3" player. I wouldn't see it going places unless sync'd with iTunes or a different phenominal jukebox. Thus, Apple likely writes that possibility off as someone else "pulling a Zune."

hehe. We don't even know how the zune will do in reality but we love to pick on it here. I must be on a Mac Forum.

-Clive

Wow! "Does not make more than a few pennies." I do not think either of you appreciate the power of small numbers, when multiplied by millions of transactions and time. Soap companies have understood this for several hundred years, clearly Apple understands it as well. The individual unit profit on iPods is clearly higher, but each iPod sold acts as a multiplier of where the real money is made. What a dream to earn just one half of one cent of every iTunes purchase. If globally they sell a million songs a day, I'd receive $5k a day or $1,825,000 a year.

 

[spinko]

Not sure why people think this is bad. Fair use if you ask me.

OTOH it's possibly open to abuse but i think it's worth the risk. I'm not overly keen on DRM stopping people doing what they like with stuff they've paid for. I wouldn't touch a DRM CD for example. All my downloads are from places that don't do DRM (and have at least 320kbps mp3 or better).

Could you drop a URL ?

 

[emotion]

Could you drop a URL ?

Beatport.com, juno.co.uk, trackitdown.net, emusic (though they need higher bit rates).

Admittedly they're biased a little to electronics but that's what I listen to.

 

[Queso]

Could you drop a URL ?

Here's one if you're interested in selling music yourself. Mostly indie acts on there, linking from their own web pages. 320kbps MP3 is common.

 

[ChrisA]

He should discuss detailed and undisclosed information about Leopard on his website and to the media while he is at it.

No, that would be breaking an NDA. The details of Fair Play are not under NDA. Not many of us signed an agreement with Apple so we are free to look inside a music file and tell the world what we see inside but no so with Leopard if there is an agrement not to.

BTW the developer's pre-release of Leopard contains no secrets. Anyone can get a copy and use it if they pay a fee to become a developer.

 

[Clive At Five]

Wow! "Does not make more than a few pennies." I do not think either of you appreciate the power of small numbers, when multiplied by millions of transactions and time. Soap companies have understood this for several hundred years, clearly Apple understands it as well. The individual unit profit on iPods is clearly higher, but each iPod sold acts as a multiplier of where the real money is made. What a dream to earn just one half of one cent of every iTunes purchase. If globally they sell a million songs a day, I'd receive $5k a day or $1,825,000 a year.

I said "Apple makes pennies" and I meant it figuratively:

Firstly, I don't think they even make a whole cent per song (source on that anyone?) and secondly, think of the cost of running the store! Millions of songs and millions of downloads means page construction (albeit probably database construction) and tons of bandwidth. That stuff ain't cheap. I meant that Apple makes pennies on the music store as a whole. I know they probably do turn a measurable profit, but a profit that is utterly DWARFED by iPod sales.

I don't recall the most recent statistics, but let's say Apple makes $25 profit per iPod sold (HUGE underestimate). Say, also that Apple makes $0.05 profit per iTunes song sold (huge OVERestimate). To match those two profits, every iTunes user must download 500 songs. Trust me, that is not how things go. I've downloaded maybe 8... and those were from Pepsi bottles.

-Clive

 

[ChrisA]

Yes but to a "capitalist" he thinks. If I invest my $10,000,000 here I will make a 1.5% return but if I invest it here I make 6%. Yes one percent of $10M is good money but if you are not making a competivie return then investors take their money and walk.

I used to work for Huges Aircraft company. It was a big aerospace company the made a pile of money and was owned by the Huges Medical foundation. Howard Huges set it up so that the profits from the company would flow into medical reasearch. Nice of him. But the medical foundation eventually decided they would make even more money if they sold the company and pt the money in the bank. They did just that.

 

[stoid]

$1,825,000 a year.

That's $456,250.00 a quarter.

Yeah, I can see that's where the majority of Apple's profit this last quarter came from. $546,000,000.

By your estimate, that's less than one tenth of one percent (<0.1%) of Apple's profits. Hardly a cash cow. Even if you underestimated by a full magnitude, it's not that impressive.

$1.8 mil/year may seem like alot to you or me that makes less than $50k/year, but to a company that does over $15,000,000,000.00 in sales a year it's little more than a drop in the bucket.

 

[BenK01]

Questions about ipods DRM etc.

This discussion has me a bit confused. I don't own an ipod, so forgive my lack of knowledge.

1. If I buy itms tracks, can I burn them to a CD and play them on a CD player?
2. If I own a CD, can rip it to itunes and then play it on an ipod?

 

[Catt]

Absolutely not, because this is not what is happening.

What is claimed here is a method of adding the "FairPlay" DRM to music from other stores than iTMS, so that companies other than Apple can sell music with DRM that can _only_ be played with iTunes or an iPod (that is, 80 percent of the market) instead of selling music with Microsoft DRM as they do now (which plays on the other 20 percent of the market).

As an example, the Beatles could use this to sell all their music on the Internet with DRM to iPod owners, without going through the iTunes Music Store. They could make more money that way; for the iTunes user or iPod owner there would be no difference.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[iMeowbot]

1. If I buy itms tracks, can I burn them to a CD and play them on a CD player?

Yes.

2. If I own a CD, can rip it to itunes and then play it on an ipod?

Yes, as long as it's a real CD and not one of those wacky not-really-CD things with bizarre copy protect schemes. Even most of those can be brought into an iPod, though.

 

[BenK01]

Yes.

Yes, as long as it's a real CD and not one of those wacky not-really-CD things with bizarre copy protect schemes. Even most of those can be brought into an iPod, though.

Thanks.

 

[shawnce]

This discussion has me a bit confused. I don't own an ipod, so forgive my lack of knowledge.

1. If I buy itms tracks, can I burn them to a CD and play them on a CD player?

Yes. Review the following from the iTMS terms of use..

b. Use of Products. You acknowledge that Products contain security technology that limits your usage of Products to the following Usage Rules, and you agree to use Products in compliance with such Usage Rules.

Usage Rules

Your use of the Products is conditioned upon your prior acceptance of the terms of this Agreement.

You shall be authorized to use the Products only for personal, noncommercial use.

You shall be authorized to use the Products on five Apple-authorized devices at any time.

You shall be entitled to export, burn (if applicable) or copy Products solely for personal, noncommercial use. You shall not be entitled to burn Video Products.

You shall be authorized to burn an audio playlist up to seven times.

You shall be able to store Products from up to five different Accounts on certain devices, such as an iPod, at a time.

Any burning (if applicable) or exporting capabilities are solely an accommodation to you and shall not constitute a grant or waiver (or other limitation or implication) of any rights of the copyright owners in any audio or video content, sound recording, underlying musical composition, or artwork embodied in any Product.

You agree that you will not attempt to, or encourage or assist any other person to, circumvent or modify any security technology or software that is part of the Service or used to administer the Usage Rules.

The delivery of Products does not transfer to you any commercial or promotional use rights in the Products.

2. If I own a CD, can rip it to itunes and then play it on an ipod?

You can rip any standard CD into iTunes and move that song onto any number of iPods (or other supported players).

 

[Macula]

As Apple's market share increases, so will the fury of competitors, legislators, hackers and open source advocates alike.

OS X is already cracking open (see for example http://semthex.freeflux.net/), and it is now possible to run OS/X with very few glitches on any super-fast (if ugly) Dell machine or any other $300 x86 clone.

Likewise, DRM is beginning to leak.

I am curious to see for how long Apple will be able to safeguard its monopolies. Restricting its content (OS/X, music, video, etc.) to run only on its own hardware platform is a GREAT idea in principle, but I have serious doubts that it is technically VIABLE in the long term.

This may turn out to be for Apple the greatest cost of its transition from PowerPC to Intel.

 

[Queso]

This may turn out to be for Apple the greatest cost of its transition from PowerPC to Intel.

But for every person who runs the hacked version indefinitely, they'll be someone else who grows tired of the pirated OSX not giving the complete widget and buys a Mac.

Maybe it's already happened. Apple could already have 12.2% market share and not know it

 

[gnasher729]

dynamicvworking out the key from the lock and pass onto another locksmith to make an exact copy to open a house or allow others to tour your house for free is not wrong? gee, what's the point of the lock on you door? what's the point of any password on your keychain (access)?

He isn't selling keys.
He is selling locks.

 

[brepublican]

He isn't selling keys.
He is selling locks.

And I'm not buying.

it's little more than a drop in the bucket.

And as we all know, drops are what it takes to fill the bucket. I'd think sales from iTMS are far from insignificant for Apple. iPod wouldnt be were it is now without the Music Store (and vice versa). I'm not gonna pretend to know, but thats just my thoughts.