Lion Exposé, Solution for "All Windows"?

[klaxamazoo]

Change Spaces is a good start. I hope a developer is able to bring back the full 10.5/10.6 functionality.

Good content/windows management was the reason I switched to OSX from Windows 7 years ago; unfortunately I find myself just as frustrated using Mission Control as I did using XP and Vista at work.

 

[FSMBP]

Wait, you find that easier to find a Safari page ? I find it much easier to either Mission Control and switch to Chrome or CMD-TAB to chrome and then use App Expose.

All Windows Expose is a big mess that requires too much visual scanning to find anything. The more windows, the less effective it becomes.

I'm a huge fan of Leopard's Expose & hate Lion's Mission Control but you just brought up a good point...grouping windows in Mission Control seems efficient. The only problem is that, sometime's I have too many windows open & not sure which application's window I need...

For example: I had a bunch of applications open, and I needed to show a friend a picture. However, off the top of my head, I couldn't remember if the picture was in Preview or an image in Safari - so in Snow Leopard, All Windows Expose helped me find it quickly. If I was on Lion, the picture could have been buried under several other windows of an application; this definitely would take longer to get.

 

[wiz7dome]

Not at all . It was much easier, I simply shot down to the lower left hot corner, saw all the windows I had opened which were labeled and easy to read, then select the Safari page I needed as it wasn't buried behind numerous other Safari pages, and done. Perhaps the screen real estate using dual displays with my Mac Pro facilitates "All Windows" Expose in addition I'm a multi-tasking fiend. I know exactly what windows I have open at all times so I don't have to dig through to remember which window in which app I need to access.

This is exactly how I use Expose as well.

You mentioned earlier about being tired of the threads such as these, I can understand especially as "Mission Control" works well for you. When I stated I was seeking reasonable solutions, I found one yesterday for "Spaces" called "Change Space." (Thanks to Phechs - and others on MacRumors - for posting this as well, just realized it so apologies for reposting) Still a work in progress, it is almost exactly like the grid spaces of "Leopard" and "Snow Leopard" and even has a menu bar indicator of your current desktop space. I highly recommend any one needing 10.5/.6 "Spaces" to get this open source app, I even donated to help the developer(s) polish it. So in the end, the threads really aren't meaning to complain or whine as some have suggested (well, not mine at least ), but to help each other with solutions to these issues we would like to see remedied.

PS Also got color icons back for my Finder and iTunes sidebars through these forums last year, so posting threads such as these does help others

Another user in agreement. I've considered supporting the developer as well, although I've refused to upgrade to Lion (until my shooting down to the left corner is solved.). I wouldn't sweat the people complaining about people complaining. These are threads flaming apple or complaints where a clear solution is available.

 

[dyn]

10.6 Expose has "All Windows" (Safari, Mail, iCal, etc were not grouped together/over-lapped as in "Mission Control" making it easier to find a buried Safari page if more than one was open, and minimized windows in the Dock were also displayed):

Your screenshots only show a very limited amount of open windows. In fact, it shows exactly what Lion would show only Lion groups the windows by app. However, if you open up 150 apps on a 13" MacBook or even a 15" MacBook Pro you will not see all windows because your display and the resolution it uses is not endless! Thus, your display/resolution will limit the amount of windows you'll see. This has been demonstrated by many screenshots where 150 apps were opened all having at least 1 window with Expose showing less than 100 windows. I have tested this many times since 10.4 and not one OS X version was able to display all windows. You need to use cmd-tab to switch to certain apps because they are not being displayed due to lack of screen. It is like trying to get 2 litres of fluid into a bottle that only holds 1 litre. You'll only get 1 litre of fluid in it.

Again, OS X has never ever showed all windows because it can't do that as it is limited by screen size & resolution. It tries to show as much windows as possible and Lion is no exception to that. However, Lion does it differently causing people to scream their heads off. It is the grouping per app that people mean and dislike, not showing all windows because that simply does not exist.

 

[wiz7dome]

Again, OS X has never ever showed all windows because it can't do that as it is limited by screen size & resolution. It tries to show as much windows as possible and Lion is no exception to that. However, Lion does it differently causing people to scream their heads off. It is the grouping per app that people mean and dislike, not showing all windows because that simply does not exist.

And the name of the option in SL (as in earlier versions of OSX) is called "All Windows"

That name comes from apple and not a failure of posters to understand what is "possible" due to resolutions or the result of wanting a "feature that never existed".

 

[KnightWRX]

B]For example:[/B] I had a bunch of applications open, and I needed to show a friend a picture. However, off the top of my head, I couldn't remember if the picture was in Preview or an image in Safari - so in Snow Leopard, All Windows Expose helped me find it quickly.

So your whole workflow is showing pictures to friends ? Frankly, I'd rather take a bit longer to find a picture to show a friend and have much less visual scanning to do while working than the inverse.

My workflow is now much cleaner.

(and after all the time I've been using computers, I have no problems knowing where stuff is on mine and I never leave pictures just opened and showing, I usually just close the app after I'm done).

 

[Simplicated]

So your whole workflow is showing pictures to friends ? Frankly, I'd rather take a bit longer to find a picture to show a friend and have much less visual scanning to do while working than the inverse.

My workflow is now much cleaner.

(and after all the time I've been using computers, I have no problems knowing where stuff is on mine and I never leave pictures just opened and showing, I usually just close the app after I'm done).

Since you are changing the topic to judging how one's workflow won't work with the Mission Control mindset... Mind if I change to baseball?

All jokes aside, my point still stands. You have to Cmd-Tab or use Mission Control to switch to the application first, then use App Exposé. That illustrates how slow MC is.

 

[FSMBP]

So your whole workflow is showing pictures to friends ? Frankly, I'd rather take a bit longer to find a picture to show a friend and have much less visual scanning to do while working than the inverse.

My workflow is now much cleaner.

(and after all the time I've been using computers, I have no problems knowing where stuff is on mine and I never leave pictures just opened and showing, I usually just close the app after I'm done).

Yes, my entire workflow is showing pictures to friends. My one example dictated my entire use of Mac completely...

If you're going to negatively respond to my example, at least use a logical argument. When my clients want to me to bring up their photos, along with a Quicktime of their intro to their website & compare, I need multiple apps & windows up at the same time.

I know it's hard to understand, but just because something works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone.

 

[3282868]

since you are changing the topic to judging how one's workflow won't work with the mission control mindset... Mind if i change to baseball? :d

all jokes aside, my point still stands. You have to cmd-tab or use mission control to switch to the application first, then use app exposé. That illustrates how slow mc is.

qft +1

 

[haravikk]

It has always been possible to switch to Chrome with Expose or Cmd-Tab. The additional step to use App Expose just demonstrates how slow Mission Control is.

Personally I think the grouping is a benefit, and I agree KnightWRX in that Snow Leopard's all windows was visually a mess. Yes it could allow you to switch to a specific window with a single-click, which was great, but as you opened more windows it took longer to find the one you wanted and click it.

So grouping isn't a bad feature, the problem is that there's no easy way to open a group. What Apple needs to add is a feature whereby clicking grouped windows will switch to the application windows view so you can see all of them. It'd be an extra click, but it'd much cleaner overall and scale better with number of windows.

The absence of minimised windows is… well I dunno about it personally, as if I minimise something then I don't want to see it. Maybe in application view only, but I'd personally rather have something more along the lines of the Windows task-bar preview, but for the minimised windows, as the title of the window isn't always that easy to pick out.

I just want to note that I don't think Apple feedback is a great way to get a feature changed, but if you do do it then you might want to file something on the Apple Bug Reporter, just send in an enhancement issue for OS X, noting that Mission Control's grouping could be improved. I've already filed one for quicker switching to application view from all windows view, so if anyone else likes it then feel free to post something along those lines, maybe it'll get some attention that way. I just want to warn people away from posting items as bug reports as they may not get attention, since Mission Control does function as expected, it just doesn't fit everyone's use-cases as well Exposé did.

 

[3282868]

So grouping isn't a bad feature, the problem is that there's no easy way to open a group. What Apple needs to add is a feature whereby clicking grouped windows will switch to the application windows view so you can see all of them. It'd be an extra click, but it'd much cleaner overall and scale better with number of windows.

Excellent point. As a developer I am using the latest .3 beta and I noticed that two-finger swiping up over grouped app windows in "Mission Control" spreads the windows out more in order to see them well. Before it barely moved the grouped windows. If the engineers simply ungrouped the app windows so that they are not overlapping at all or slightly it would be great, although I still miss the simple Expose "All Windows" desktop hot corner in my bottom lefthand corner. One move was all it took to get to any buried Finder or Safari window as well as minimized Dock windows denoted by the horizontal line (I docked windows at times just to clear up my displays yet still used them frequently).

I just want to note that I don't think Apple feedback is a great way to get a feature changed, but if you do do it then you might want to file something on the Apple Bug Reporter, just send in an enhancement issue for OS X, noting that Mission Control's grouping could be improved.

I filed bug reports on "Mission Control" and received feedback that it's a known issue and wanted follow-up feedback with later 10.7.X releases. Believe me, Apple engineers know, the issue is if they care . (I filed mine under UI issues)

 

[klaxamazoo]

Personally I think the grouping is a benefit, and I agree KnightWRX in that Snow Leopard's all windows was visually a mess. Yes it could allow you to switch to a specific window with a single-click, which was great, but as you opened more windows it took longer to find the one you wanted and click it.

So grouping isn't a bad feature, the problem is that there's no easy way to open a group. What Apple needs to add is a feature whereby clicking grouped windows will switch to the application windows view so you can see all of them. It'd be an extra click, but it'd much cleaner overall and scale better with number of windows.

The absence of minimised windows is… well I dunno about it personally, as if I minimise something then I don't want to see it. Maybe in application view only, but I'd personally rather have something more along the lines of the Windows task-bar preview, but for the minimised windows, as the title of the window isn't always that easy to pick out.

I just want to note that I don't think Apple feedback is a great way to get a feature changed, but if you do do it then you might want to file something on the Apple Bug Reporter, just send in an enhancement issue for OS X, noting that Mission Control's grouping could be improved. I've already filed one for quicker switching to application view from all windows view, so if anyone else likes it then feel free to post something along those lines, maybe it'll get some attention that way. I just want to warn people away from posting items as bug reports as they may not get attention, since Mission Control does function as expected, it just doesn't fit everyone's use-cases as well Exposé did.

One of the problems with Snow Leopard's implementation of Expose was that all the windows became the same size and the user lost all "size" context and was forced to really look at both the window content and the name. That was one reason a lot people hacked the 10.5 Expose into 10.6.

Really, there are a few different types of models in terms of content management. One is the Mission Control, "find by Application" method, in which you remember what things are based upon what App it is in.
The other method is a "find by Content." In which you look for things based upon what it looks like.

For visual people, the 10.5 Expose was perfect in that relative size and position (as much as possible) was preserved. 10.6 lost the relative size and position aspect which kind of sucked (Except for showing minimized windows).

Mission Control completely blocks the "find by Content" capabilities and forces a "find by App" scheme. While 10.6 always had a "find by App" capability using App Expose, 107 does not have a corresponding "find by Content" scheme because the windows overlap, relative sizes are not well preserved (but still much better than 10.6) and App Expose takes you out of spaces, making it so that you cannot move things around.

Personally, a find by App scheme is a step backwards in terms of usability because I don't care what App has what I want, it just know that I want a specific picture in my mind. For those people that are less visual, I could see how a Find by App scheme works well; but Mission Control's implementation has a number of serious flaws in that: A) the only way to have windows not overlap is to use App Expose, which takes you out of Mission Control and keeps you from moving windows to different desktop and B) makes it so that you can only see only see the content of ONE space at at time versus being able to see everything all at once and you are now FORCED to find the right Application before you can find your content.

I think the big difference for those who like versus don't like MC might be how visually oriented the person is.

 

[dba415]

People defending Mission Control seem to be making an awful lot of excuses as to why it is better. The bottom line is that Leopard Expose is a lot better for managing a realistic number of windows that are open.

If you are going to argue that it falls apart when there are 100s of windows open, don't open up 100 windows, that will NEVER be necessary and seems like you are just reaching for a downside to Expose.

I might have at most 5 or 6 separate windows open at a time. Expose is PERFECT and I can get to the window I want very quickly. If I have 3 safari windows open, it's easy as pie to choose the one I want. Not so with Mission Control.

 

[Simplicated]

People defending Mission Control seem to be making an awful lot of excuses as to why it is better.

I can't resist but to say that I couldn't agree more. Some of them come up with an insane amount of impossible situations, trying to trifle with the true usefulness of Exposé.

Do people really open 100 windows in daily work? Especially when coupled with Spaces, that will never happen.

 

[klaxamazoo]

I can't resist but to say that I couldn't agree more. Some of them come up with an insane amount of impossible situations, trying to trifle with the true usefulness of Exposé.

Do people really open 100 windows in daily work? Especially when coupled with Spaces, that will never happen.

I routinely have between 40 and 80 windows open, unless I am on my Macbook Air because Mission Control can't navigate that many windows.

As a scientist, it takes a lot of applications and a lot of content to write a paper or a proposal. OSX used to excel at handling a lot of content, but Mission Control just doesn't do even moderate amounts of content very well.

 

[Simplicated]

I routinely have between 40 and 80 windows open, unless I am on my Macbook Air because Mission Control can't navigate that many windows.

As a scientist, it takes a lot of applications and a lot of content to write a paper or a proposal. OSX used to excel at handling a lot of content, but Mission Control just doesn't do even moderate amounts of content very well.

I understand your pain here. Perhaps you can try managing your windows with Desktops (the watered down version of Spaces in Lion), and see if it works out for you.

If Apple's intent was to help organize your windows when designing Mission Control, I can tell that they completely failed and did the exact opposite.

 

[astrorider]

I learned a few things from this blog that helped me with the Mission Control/Spaces changes in Lion:
http://gigaom.com/apple/make-lions-mission-control-behave-more-like-spaces/

With these changes I personally don't find Mission Control that bad of a change from Spaces/Expose.

 

[klaxamazoo]

I understand your pain here. Perhaps you can try managing your windows with Desktops (the watered down version of Spaces in Lion), and see if it works out for you.

If Apple's intent was to help organize your windows when designing Mission Control, I can tell that they completely failed and did the exact opposite.

Do you have a link to Desktops? A google search doesn't narrow it down very well.

p.s. I agree, Lion Raped Me.

 

[3282868]

Do you have a link to Desktops? A google search doesn't narrow it down very well.

p.s. I agree, Lion Raped Me.

Does he mean "Desktop Manager"?

http://developer.berlios.de/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3463&release_id=5648

EDIT Can't be, it's PPC. Hmmm

EDIT 2: Found it. Desktop Manager, Intel:

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/12682/desktop-manager

 

[KnightWRX]

Do you have a link to Desktops?

He means the Lion version of "Spaces". He calls it Desktops because it's basically a bunch of desktops number from 1 to X.

I don't get the whole "it's not in a grid!" thing. Frankly, what does it matter how the desktops are arranged ? Heck in Enlightenment DR14+, they weren't in a grid either, the pagers were independent from each other and could be positionned any which way, and you could "open" the background desktop from dragging the top bar. Heck, you could push a Window 2 desktops down by opening the top bar on the desktop, then opening the top bar on the 2nd desktop.

Really, I grew up on Enlightenment virtual desktops, the grid thing is a whole alien concept to me.

 

[klaxamazoo]

He means the Lion version of "Spaces". He calls it Desktops because it's basically a bunch of desktops number from 1 to X.

I don't get the whole "it's not in a grid!" thing. Frankly, what does it matter how the desktops are arranged ? Heck in Enlightenment DR14+, they weren't in a grid either, the pagers were independent from each other and could be positionned any which way, and you could "open" the background desktop from dragging the top bar. Heck, you could push a Window 2 desktops down by opening the top bar on the desktop, then opening the top bar on the 2nd desktop.

Really, I grew up on Enlightenment virtual desktops, the grid thing is a whole alien concept to me.

No he doesn't. See the links above your post. Desktops was an old virtual desktop implemented in 10.3 or so. Looking at it, it doesn't look like it solves the Expose problem.

People like the grids because it allows one to rapidly change between a lot of desktops in a minimum amount of moves. It also creates a structure that allows you to see ALL the Spaces at once with a maximum amount of viewable content per Space.

 

[KnightWRX]

People like the grids because it allows one to rapidly change between a lot of desktops in a minimum amount of moves.

No it doesn't.

CMD-# brings me to whatever Space in SL or whatever Desktop in Lion. It's the same.

Lion adds "4 finger swipe up - click desktop", same as bringing up Spaces and click the desktop.

I'd argue 4 finger swipe left/right is the best darn feature in Lion, the fastest desktop switching, aside from CMD-arrow which is what I was using in Snow Leopard (and still am in Lion when the trackpad is too far away).

Heck, your desktop really aren't "in a grid" either. It's just how they are represented in the Spaces app. I could setup my pagers "in a grid" on Enlightenement and just click whatever desktop I wanted to be on too.

 

[Joos24]

No he doesn't. See the links above your post. Desktops was an old virtual desktop implemented in 10.3 or so. Looking at it, it doesn't look like it solves the Expose problem.

People like the grids because it allows one to rapidly change between a lot of desktops in a minimum amount of moves. It also creates a structure that allows you to see ALL the Spaces at once with a maximum amount of viewable content per Space.

I think you mean SOME people like grids. I couldn't stand the grid in Snow Leopard. Half the time I didn't know if clicking on my Safari icon was going to cause Spaces to jump Up, Down, Left or Right. Totally annoying. Let alone it was more confusing with All App Expose because every app Expose'd and it was confusing to tell which app was Firefox, Safari, iTunes, Preview and such without looking very carefully. In Snow Leopard I began setting up only 4-5 spaces in a linear fashion. It was much easier for me to figure out where my open apps were. Low and behold Apple applied that to Lion thankfully. Not everybody hates Lion's Expose. And App Expose is much easier for me. I only use it to compare windows side by side. Isn't that what people do in Windows 7's Snap since it only works with 2 windows?

Go right ahead and rate me down, I couldn't care less. This forum is all about rebellion rather than trying to see the benefit of something that's changed. Nobody is stopping you from staying on Snow Leopard but if you want to use future software you have to move on with the times. Heck Windows 7 doesn't even have anything like Spaces or Mission Control to group windows yet it receives so much praise as if it's the whipped topping on the ice cream sundae.

 

[Simplicated]

Go right ahead and rate me down, I couldn't care less. This forum is all about rebellion rather than trying to see the benefit of something that's changed.

Nice way to get preemptively defensive. If you don't care then you won't need to talk about it.

Nobody is stopping you from staying on Snow Leopard but if you want to use future software you have to move on with the times.

That's exactly the point - We want to use new software. But we don't have a new operating system that works for us. Yet developers are going all overoptimistic by eliminating support for OS X dating just one version back. (I am looking at you, 1Password and Growl.)

No he doesn't. See the links above your post. Desktops was an old virtual desktop implemented in 10.3 or so. Looking at it, it doesn't look like it solves the Expose problem.

People like the grids because it allows one to rapidly change between a lot of desktops in a minimum amount of moves. It also creates a structure that allows you to see ALL the Spaces at once with a maximum amount of viewable content per Space.

Well, I actually meant Spaces. But the terminology changed too radically in Lion and is confusing.

 

[Phechs]

I just donated to the Change Space developer
https://github.com/sdsykes/Change-Space

at this link:
http://pledgie.com/campaigns/16132

every little bit will help this developer see how many of us want/need this functionality back in Lion. If you really care, or if you've ever offerd a bounty for these features in iLion, IMO strongly consider donating to the cause, the cause that already has given us a spaces grid, and the space number in the menubar, CHANGE SPACE!