Lion Exposé, Solution for "All Windows"?

[dba415]

I'd argue 4 finger swipe left/right is the best darn feature in Lion, the fastest desktop switching, aside from CMD-arrow which is what I was using in Snow Leopard (and still am in Lion when the trackpad is too far away).

That was the one thing that I actually liked in Lion, so when I reverted back to Snow Leopard I used BetterTouchTool to make it exactly that, now I can slide between spaces just as you could in Lion.

 

[Joos24]

That's exactly the point - We want to use new software. But we don't have a new operating system that works for us. Yet developers are going all overoptimistic by eliminating support for OS X dating just one version back. (I am looking at you, 1Password and Growl.)

And exactly who are you speaking for? Who is the "US" and "WE"? You mean the 10 or so people on MR that can't deal with change. Please speak for yourself. I don't feel the way you do and I've been on the Mac for 15 years and I definitely consider myself a power user. I do creation and encoding on weekly basis for my business.

For every 10 of "YOU" that see Lion as a hindrance there's probably 1000 more (power users) that find the system more efficient. I just love how some people on this forum say if someone likes Lion then that means they are just web surfers and emailers and don't really "use" their system as if the Lion haters on MR are the only ones that really do anything serious with their machines.

Apple uses their own system too you know? They are not going to purposely screw up their own OS just for the sake of. How do I know they use it? Not only are they developing their own software with it but they use it for the POS systems to run their stores. It is the developer's choice to follow along with Lion's new system features. If the developers see a benefit of doing it then either deal with it or don't use their software. Or do you think the developers just use Lion to web surf only as well? 😛

 

[klaxamazoo]

And exactly who are you speaking for? Who is the "US" and "WE"? You mean the 10 or so people on MR that can't deal with change. Please speak for yourself. I don't feel the way you do and I've been on the Mac for 15 years and I definitely consider myself a power user. I do creation and encoding on weekly basis for my business.

For every 10 of "YOU" that see Lion as a hindrance there's probably 1000 more (power users) that find the system more efficient. I just love how some people on this forum say if someone likes Lion then that means they are just web surfers and emailers and don't really "use" their system as if the Lion haters on MR are the only ones that really do anything serious with their machines.

Apple uses their own system too you know? They are not going to purposely screw up their own OS just for the sake of. How do I know they use it? Not only are they developing their own software with it but they use it for the POS systems to run their stores. It is the developer's choice to follow along with Lion's new system features. If the developers see a benefit of doing it then either deal with it or don't use their software. Or do you think the developers just use Lion to web surf only as well? 😛

I have yet to see a good argument as to why:
1) not being able to easily move a Window from one Space to the next is better
- i.e. the stacked Windows forces you to use App Expose, which takes you out of Mission Control and thus, you cannot move the window to a new space without having your view swing back and forth.
2) why not being able to see everything that is going on in your system at once and brought together onto one display is better.
3) why having to select an App to find a Window hidden behind a stack of Windows is better

 

[Joos24]

I have yet to see a good argument as to why:
1) not being able to easily move a Window from one Space to the next is better
- i.e. the stacked Windows forces you to use App Expose, which takes you out of Mission Control and thus, you cannot move the window to a new space without having your view swing back and forth.

I'll give you that one. I will say that feature needs touching up. One shouldn't have to go out of MC to do App Expose and you should be able to move windows to new spaces simply by sliding them. The only problem with that is (and either people have forgotten about this or they refuse to remember it) it was slow to move windows. Many times when I slid a Safari window over to another space in Snow Leopard it would either hang or move slowly. This was the same behavior on all of my Macs. My guess is why Apple removed that function. It must've either taken up too much ram or it was graphically intensive for a fluid operation.

2) why not being able to see everything that is going on in your system at once and brought together onto one display is better.
3) why having to select an App to find a Window hidden behind a stack of Windows is better

Always hated All App Expose. Too confusing trying to find every open window running.
Look, there are plenty of very good and useful features in Lion and IMO some of the haters on here refuse to acknowledge them in fear of giving it a bit of credit.
For example, Image Capture had a nice upgrade in Lion. I no longer have to use Canon's software for our office scanners anymore. Spotlight got a very nice upgrade and kills Windows search in functionality but is anyone bold enough besides me to give credit in those other areas of Lion? NO.

Now, do I love everything that Lion is offering? Obviously not, I just agreed with you earlier but there's a lot more good than bad.

 

[Simplicated]

And exactly who are you speaking for? Who is the "US" and "WE"? You mean the 10 or so people on MR that can't deal with change. Please speak for yourself. I don't feel the way you do and I've been on the Mac for 15 years and I definitely consider myself a power user. I do creation and encoding on weekly basis for my business.

So whenever changes come along everyone must adapt and live in the utopian world of Big Brother? I guess we don't have rights to protest do we? 🙄

Apple uses their own system too you know? They are not going to purposely screw up their own OS just for the sake of. How do I know they use it? Not only are they developing their own software with it but they use it for the POS systems to run their stores.

Erm, ever heard of Final Cut Pro X?

Look, there are plenty of very good and useful features in Lion and IMO some of the haters on here refuse to acknowledge them in fear of giving it a bit of credit.

Hating an OS doesn't mean you hate every bit of it. I, too, do love Spotlight and the ability to Quick Look within Stacks, and I have said it in other threads. I must be lucky enough to be not one of the haters you are "addressing". 🙄

The other bits are the ones that don't prove anything other than ranting about how others hate Lion.

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The key is in simplicity. Exposé presents you with a neat layout of every window on your computer, but Mission Control doesn't - It groups windows by application and the forefront window always obscures the ones behind. Apple brands Mission Control as a combination of Exposé, Spaces and Dashboard, but it in fact isn't.

If you love using App Exposé so much, then be it your choice of switching windows. It is untouched in Lion. It doesn't mean Apple is entitled to crippling the all-window Exposé and call it Exposé.

 

[Joos24]

So whenever changes come along everyone must adapt and live in the utopian world of Big Brother? I guess we don't have rights to protest do we? 🙄

"EVERYONE" must not do any of the such for Big Brother. 🙄. If OS X is such the problem then people can remove themselves from "Big Brother" and use Microsoft Windows. 😛

Erm, ever heard of Final Cut Pro X?

Uh, not strong enough argument. I see you didn't have a rebuttal for the rest of Apple's software such as Logic or even their POS systems I mentioned. Also did I say Apple was perfect? That's the problem with THIS forum and some others. Apple makes great products so they have to be "perfect" although they don't profess to be anymore than the way Dell or HP advertises their awesome stuff.
You or others can say what you will about Apple "dumbing down" their OS or limiting their hardware but the fact of the matter is the industry ends up doing what they do and IMO I think that's why some of the haters get into a hissy fit because they are afraid that other companies will follow Apple's doings. Shame these other companies can't change the industry with their ideas and make Apple follow them.

I would love to see HP, Dell, Lenovo and Microsoft create something so great that Apple decides to go their way. But nope, it hasn't happened and it looks like it never will. Case in point, after the Macbook Air became successful now CES was bombarded with "Ultrabooks". 🙄. Microsoft decided to build Windows 8 in the form of their tablet OS with Metro. Can't say they stole that from Apple but the concept certainly mimics Lion with iOS.

Hating an OS doesn't mean you hate every bit of it. I, too, do love Spotlight and the ability to Quick Look within Stacks, and I have said it in other threads. I must be lucky enough to be not one of the haters you are "addressing". 🙄

Actually you are one of the haters I am addressing. You've said your peace and I don't agree with all of it. I did agree with some of it however. Also did you mean "Hating certain aspects of an OS doesn't mean you hate every bit of it"? 😉

The key is in simplicity. Exposé presents you with a neat layout of every window on your computer, but Mission Control doesn't - It groups windows by application and the forefront window always obscures the ones behind.

Pressing the Spacebar spreads out the windows in question.

If you love using App Exposé so much, then be it your choice of switching windows. It is untouched in Lion. It doesn't mean Apple is entitled to crippling the all-window Exposé and call it Exposé.

If I love App Expose so much??? What is this? Am I suppose to join the party here and hate on Lion because the rest of you do? Unfortunately you're wrong, Apple "IS" entitled to do what they want with their OS as well as Microsoft. Many people hate the new Metro UI in Windows 8 but Microsoft is sticking to their guns regardless of the rants. They know they have more customers than they do complainers.
What you, me and the rest of the buying audience is entitled to do is vote with your wallet. 😉

Hating an OS doesn't mean you hate every bit of it. I, too, do love Spotlight and the ability to Quick Look within Stacks, and I have said it in other threads. I must be lucky enough to be not one of the haters you are "addressing".

If you hate an OS, you hate an OS....or did you mean hating certain aspects of an OS??

 

[klaxamazoo]

Always hated All App Expose. Too confusing trying to find every open window running.

Look, there are plenty of very good and useful features in Lion and IMO some of the haters on here refuse to acknowledge them in fear of giving it a bit of credit.

Some people like things organized by App, some organized by size and relative position. That is why some like MC and some don't. Imagine if MC was the standard for 5+ years and Apple got rid of the ability to group things by App. Those that naturally prefer a non-messy, organized grouping of Windows would be annoyed every time they invoked the new system.
Can you use the new system even if you don't like it? Of course. Can you get your work done with the new system even if you don't like it? Of course. But there are enough people like me out there that are annoyed every single time we interact with it.
It is like having to use a history based 3D modeller like ProE after having used as direct 2D modeller like CoCreate,. It is annoying every time.


I agree that there are a lot of good changes in Lion, as someone that develops his own lab software, I really like the potential of ARC. Gestures are nice, etc. So I definitely agree and understand that people that like Lion.

However, the changes to Spaces/Expose, Address Book only showing two columns and making me flip pages to find my groups and see individuals, iCal's pop-up for the calendar and removal of the mini-month. Those things are annoying every single time and in my opinion, they show a lack of taste on Tim Cooks part and the inability to make things simple and powerful and streamlined all at the same time.

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"
Pressing the Spacebar spreads out the windows in question.

That just widens the Window that is selected. It doesn't solve the Windows obscured by other Windows problem. And App Expose pulls you out of MC, so you can no longer rearrange your Windows between Spaces.

Finding Content should not be a game of Hide-n-Seek.

 

[Joos24]

However, the changes to Spaces/Expose, Address Book only showing two columns and making me flip pages to find my groups and see individuals...

Just my opinion but it's really not that major. Our office uses Lion's addressbook everyday to search for clients and colleague contacts and not a single person has complained since moving from Snow Leopard. The only thing that was acknowledged was the UI change. A few people said, "Oh, it looks more like the iPad Addressbook now". That's all.

iCal's pop-up for the calendar and removal of the mini-month. Those things are annoying every single time and in my opinion, they show a lack of taste on Tim Cooks part and the inability to make things simple and powerful and streamlined all at the same time.

The mini month is there, in fact I like the way they offer it now than Snow Leopard's iCal. I will agree it wasn't obvious because I didn't use my daily calendar much but that's where it is. Now I find myself using the Daily calendar because it shows the existing mini month plus all of our office appointments for the next several months. I find no need to switch to month view anymore. IMO the new iCal is more convenient.

I think the people here are being silly screaming about the new leather-like look. 🙄. It's just a calendar and addressbook. It's not like the menu bar was changed to leather. 🙄

That just widens the Window that is selected. It doesn't solve the Windows obscured by other Windows problem. And App Expose pulls you out of MC, so you can no longer rearrange your Windows between Spaces.

I did say earlier that Apple needs to work on Expose' more and that App Expose should be a part of MC. I don't think they did a perfect job with that either but it doesn't mess up my daily workflow. Again just my opinion but I think this has been so blown out of proportion here. If people are really "using" their Macs they should be dove into the app they are using, not constantly playing with Expose all day. It's just to help you find a window and move on.

 

[klaxamazoo]

Just my opinion but it's really not that major. Our office uses Lion's addressbook everyday to search for clients and colleague contacts and not a single person has complained since moving from Snow Leopard. The only thing that was acknowledged was the UI change. A few people said, "Oh, it looks more like the iPad Addressbook now". That's all.


The mini month is there, in fact I like the way they offer it now than Snow Leopard's iCal. I will agree it wasn't obvious because I didn't use my daily calendar much but that's where it is. Now I find myself using the Daily calendar because it shows the existing mini month plus all of our office appointments for the next several months. I find no need to switch to month view anymore. IMO the new iCal is more convenient.

I think the people here are being silly screaming about the new leather-like look. 🙄. It's just a calendar and addressbook. It's not like the menu bar was changed to leather. 🙄


I did say earlier that Apple needs to work on Expose' more and that App Expose should be a part of MC. I don't think they did a perfect job with that either but it doesn't mess up my daily workflow. Again just my opinion but I think this has been so blown out of proportion here. If people are really "using" their Macs they should be dove into the app they are using, not constantly playing with Expose all day. It's just to help you find a window and move on.

Some people are very particular in how they want things, Steve Jobs being an excellent example. There is nothing wrong with that nor is there anything wrong with not being particular. In fact, I used to be envious of people that could just accept things how they are, but then I got into research and realized how much advantage I have over others because I can clearly see how I want things done.

With that in mind, Address Book is annoying because I have a lot of groups and I that I access ten times a day or so. If you don't access a lot of groups then it probably won't bother you at all.

For iCal, the Day view does have the mini-month and a decent amount of information, but the Week view is where I spend my time. I did buy BusyCal as a replacement and would really like to see them adapt an XCode 4 style interface. Imagine being able to configure you calendar exactly how it works for you the way that XCode does. You could see your Day, Week, Month, Calendars, and Information all at the same time, or simplify it down to just what YOU like. XCode 4 is amazing in how versatile the UI is. It would be amazing if iCal or BusyCal had that level of configuration.

In terms of diving into you App, unless I am at a machine gathering data (like right now), I'm writing a paper. Which means 10 - 20 Applications with 40+ windows open at the same time. It takes the coordination of a lot of applications and a lot of content to write a paper smoothly. Ignoring the writing process, data analysis and making figures can easily take 15+ Applications.

In no way,shape of form am I saying that your views/opinions are not valid. But I will say that I have probably have a different work flow then a lot of people and the reason I switched to OSX was because it excelled at handling that workflow. The reason I don't like Lion things like Mission Control and Address Book slow me down and get in my way. Hopefully Apple or another developer will address the issue.

The purpose of this thread is to bring people together that feel they need this issue addressed and talk about any advances that are being made. Debating the merits of 10.7 MC versus 10.6 Expose/Spaces doesn't really help find a solution to an issue that many people, including myself, find lacking in 10.7.

 

[haravikk]

If you are going to argue that it falls apart when there are 100s of windows open, don't open up 100 windows, that will NEVER be necessary and seems like you are just reaching for a downside to Expose.

It doesn't have to be hundreds, even as many 12+ will cause Snow Leopard's Exposé to start losing its usefulness; not sure if Leopard's was necessarily better at scaling either, though the proportional windows was a help.

So I do still think the grouping in Mission Control is a plus, the problem is that it's a plus at the expense of overall usability, because it hasn't really been "fully" implemented, so as a result it replaces clunky but usable functionality with better, but incomplete functionality.

Like I say though; if they would just eliminate the step between all windows and app-windows, then this wouldn't be a big deal, as we'd have a better overall system for everyone.

 

[baryon]

The worst thing in MC for me is that you can't see ALL your apps/windows at once in all spaces/desktops at once.

In Spaces, you could "zoom out" of Spaces and do an Exposé (2 quick steps) and see all your windows, and I mean ALL. In MC, there is no way to do it. You can't even see all apps you have open. I use 6-7 desktops and I have loads of stuff open, I want to quickly see what the hell I have open since I don't even remember. It's easier and much faster for me to see the actual windows than the dock icons, since I associate the content with the content, and not the dock icon.

For example, if I'm looking at an image of a rabbit in Safari, I'll be looking for the freaking rabbit, not Safari. My brain works visually, and I remember how things look, not what they are represented by.

 

[baryon]

The only problem with that is (and either people have forgotten about this or they refuse to remember it) it was slow to move windows. Many times when I slid a Safari window over to another space in Snow Leopard it would either hang or move slowly. This was the same behavior on all of my Macs. My guess is why Apple removed that function. It must've either taken up too much ram or it was graphically intensive for a fluid operation.

That was a bug in Snow Leopard only, it was smooth as hell in Leopard. Actually, every animation was very smooth in Leopard, and it all screwed up in SL. Instead of fixing the issues and just going back to the Leopard versions, Apple just decided to remove the features altogether basically, which is an interesting way of solving a problem 🙂

 

[nebulos]

"show all windows" is an awesome feature. i also used it ALL THE TIME. (i'm mostly on PC currently.)

leaving this out of Lion is quite possibly the stupidest thing Apple could have done. well, perhaps its tied with the existence of Launchpad, which is absolutely worthless; (you can't even move the icons where you want them???!!!)

now that i'm considering a mac again, it's makes me angry that i'd have to choose between a great, extremely useful feature like "show all windows" on Snow Leopard and the multi-touch gestures of Lion.

Please, Apple, fix this!!!

are there any petitions going around on this? any big threads?