Going down that road, Lion looked awful compared to Snow Leopard.
But continuing down that road, for clean, uncluttered minimalist UI, use an Apple II.
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Liquid Glass - A must read critique
- Thread starter turbineseaplane
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But continuing down that road, for clean, uncluttered minimalist UI, use an Apple II.
You’ve made some very good points.That is the elitist argument that many people used to justify flat design. It’s an ignorant argument that reeks of privilege. That argument was widely propagated by flat design supporters in 2013 (when Apple released iOS 7), but the data from 2017 and 2021 shows how extremely and utterly wrong it is.
In 2017, the World Economic Forum reported that in wealthy OECD countries, “A quarter of adults can’t use a computer” and “Almost a quarter (24.3%) of the people in the study don’t know how to use one. Ten per cent had never used a computer…”
In 2021, the United Nations reported that 2.9 billion people, which is 37% of the world’s population, have never used the Internet.
Sources:
The four levels of computer skills, and the surprising number of adults who fall short
Only 5% of people in OECD countries are any good with a computer.www.weforum.org
More than a third of world’s population have never used internet, says UN
Nearly 3bn people, or 37% of global population, have never been online despite rise in use during pandemicwww.theguardian.com
Realistically though, the reason that so many people in the world do not have access to computers and the internet is nothing to do with the user interface.
They don’t have access to hardware and the internet because they don’t have access. And the reason they don’t have access is money.
The UI design is not a significant factor compared to the economics. The best way to increase computer literacy amongst the poorer people in the world would be to give them cheap computers and cheap internet access. They’ll work the UI out for themselves.
I’m well into my 50s. When I started learning about how to use a computer, I was using a command prompt. I was a kid and I was self-taught, because at the time there were very few people around me who could have taught me. The country I lived in was pretty bloody poor (by Western standards) until the 1990s.
The UI is not the problem. Access to hardware and affordable internet is the problem. People are smart, they’ll manage a less pretty or less optimal UI. Computers are, as you say, still very much a norm in developed countries. Splitting hairs about the UI is very much a first world problem.
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Here is my story:
10.4 Tiger UI always looked nice and simple for me when i saw it on other computers, but i personally never used this system in real life.
10.5 I started from Hackintosh Leopard and somehow liked it's refreshed UI with gray toolbars, easy readable text, sexy transparent dark hood elements and dark flat dock in 2D mode.
10.6 Snow Leopard was near the same but less buggy and with simpler animations. It also had badly redesigned Expose (currently renamed to Mission Control) which for luck could be returned to normal by some known modification.
10.7-10.9 Starting from this version strange things start to happen. UI became redesigned to low contrast look with hard to read gray text on gray toolbars. So i decided to skip it until next redesign. The only new thing that i liked in that system where flat scrollbars, so i decided to create flat toolbars UI mod for Snow Leopard.
10.10-10.13 So i skipped all versions till Yosemite release. Flat UI concept was somehow interesting, but new stupid iOS7-like icons where total trash. So i skipped Yosemite as well because it was buggy as hell.
10.14 When Mojave was released i made some hardware upgrade and started to use it. To make it look "right" i modified it with system icons from 10.9 Mavericks and also used cDock, XtraFinder, Tiles and some other customization apps and hacks. Still use it as my main workstations system.
10.15 I skipped Catalina because 32-bit apps and drivers for my some of my hardware became not supported anymore. Also i didn't like new system restrictions.
11.0 I skipped Big Sur because i didn't like that new redesign and too many bugs. iOS-like elements mixed with Mac. Too rounded, too bright. Near impossible to customize system icons. I can write a lot about this UI, but i really don't want. Structure and feel of original Mac UI idea was lost. Also FireWire was not supported anymore, so it can't work with my studio sound card.
12.0-15.0+ I installed next versions just for test, but didn't see any improvements in UI. I hoped that something could changed and improved in next big UI redesign, but... Redesigned 26 beta now looks even more eye burning white, more rounded, more unpractical and iOS-like.
10.4 Tiger UI always looked nice and simple for me when i saw it on other computers, but i personally never used this system in real life.
10.5 I started from Hackintosh Leopard and somehow liked it's refreshed UI with gray toolbars, easy readable text, sexy transparent dark hood elements and dark flat dock in 2D mode.
10.6 Snow Leopard was near the same but less buggy and with simpler animations. It also had badly redesigned Expose (currently renamed to Mission Control) which for luck could be returned to normal by some known modification.
10.7-10.9 Starting from this version strange things start to happen. UI became redesigned to low contrast look with hard to read gray text on gray toolbars. So i decided to skip it until next redesign. The only new thing that i liked in that system where flat scrollbars, so i decided to create flat toolbars UI mod for Snow Leopard.
10.10-10.13 So i skipped all versions till Yosemite release. Flat UI concept was somehow interesting, but new stupid iOS7-like icons where total trash. So i skipped Yosemite as well because it was buggy as hell.
10.14 When Mojave was released i made some hardware upgrade and started to use it. To make it look "right" i modified it with system icons from 10.9 Mavericks and also used cDock, XtraFinder, Tiles and some other customization apps and hacks. Still use it as my main workstations system.
10.15 I skipped Catalina because 32-bit apps and drivers for my some of my hardware became not supported anymore. Also i didn't like new system restrictions.
11.0 I skipped Big Sur because i didn't like that new redesign and too many bugs. iOS-like elements mixed with Mac. Too rounded, too bright. Near impossible to customize system icons. I can write a lot about this UI, but i really don't want. Structure and feel of original Mac UI idea was lost. Also FireWire was not supported anymore, so it can't work with my studio sound card.
12.0-15.0+ I installed next versions just for test, but didn't see any improvements in UI. I hoped that something could changed and improved in next big UI redesign, but... Redesigned 26 beta now looks even more eye burning white, more rounded, more unpractical and iOS-like.
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That's pure speculation and opinion on your part.
Neither of the articles you posted are about people wanting to use computers and struggling to do so. The WEF article is could just as easily be about people who simply aren't interested in using computers. The guardian article, meanwhile, is about people who don't have access to computers at all.
Neither of these have anything to do with UI.
The arguments you are trying to build here are entirely fallacious.
Correlation ≠ causation.
The data from 2017 to 2021 has nothing to do with the UI of macOS.
It’s true that correlation does not equal causation, and it’s true that the data from 2017 and 2021 is not about the UI of macOS.
A portion of the people in the world who lack experience with computers will eventually start using computers as conditions change for them. People (like Tim Cook and Jony Ive) benefitted from the visual cues of skeuomorphic design. Skeuomorphic design was like a “ladder” that people like them used to bring themselves up in terms of computer skills. It’s not fair for people like them to afterwards pull the “ladder” up behind them and not let anyone else use it.
Apple’s jumping on the flat design bandwagon caused the entire industry to follow. Microsoft pioneered flat design and Apple copied them. But it was only after Apple copied them that the rest of the industry followed.
Of course flat design UI isn’t the main reason why many people in the world are inexperienced with computers. The are other much bigger reasons. But flat design doesn’t help things, and actually makes things more difficult for those people.
Nonsense. If someone with access to a computer wants to learn how to use a computer they can figure it out regardless of the UI.
Also, Tim Cook and Jonny Ive?!?
You’re telling me they didn’t start using computers until they were middle aged?!?
I’m younger then either of them and started with no GUI
Honestly. If I need to seriously focus on my writing, my Apple IIe is my weapon of choice. These days I look forward more to updates to Apple II Desktop than I do macOS.
hmm, how hard is this 🤔
"this is the Notes app, for taking notes" "this is Mail, for email". "the 'send' button sends your email".
regardless of whether a button is flat, or 3D, or abstract, once you know what that button does, it will always do that thing.
if we can learn geometry, how to cook, how to tie our shoelaces, we can learn anything...
The icon on the left is the best for me. I liked Mac OS 10.3 Panther's UI the best of all Mac OS's. My favorite overall release was probably 10.8 because they focused on bugs and performance. I remember my laptop starting up in 8 seconds. Everything was super fast and worked really well. Now the focus is on iOS and iPad OS. More proof of it is the Mac UI is looking more and more like iOS/iPad OS. Still, I always upgrade to get the security updates and to know I am running the latest/so called greatest!Here is my story:
10.4 Tiger UI always looked nice and simple for me when i saw it on other computers, but i personally never used this system in real life.
10.5 I started from Hackintosh Leopard and somehow liked it's refreshed UI with gray toolbars, easy readable text, sexy transparent dark hood elements and dark flat dock in 2D mode.
10.6 Snow Leopard was near the same but less buggy and with simpler animations. It also had badly redesigned Expose (currently renamed to Mission Control) which for luck could be returned to normal by some known modification.
10.7-10.9 Starting from this version strange things start to happen. UI became redesigned to low contrast look with hard to read gray text on gray toolbars. So i decided to skip it until next redesign. The only new thing that i liked in that system where flat scrollbars, so i decided to create flat toolbars UI mod for Snow Leopard.
10.10-10.13 So i skipped all versions till Yosemite release. Flat UI concept was somehow interesting, but new stupid iOS7-like icons where total trash. So i skipped Yosemite as well because it was buggy as hell.
10.14 When Mojave was released i made some hardware upgrade and started to use it. To make it look "right" i modified it with system icons from 10.9 Mavericks and also used cDock, XtraFinder, Tiles and some other customization apps and hacks. Still use it as my main workstations system.
10.15 I skipped Catalina because 32-bit apps and drivers for my some of my hardware became not supported anymore. Also i didn't like new system restrictions.
11.0 I skipped Big Sur because i didn't like that new redesign and too many bugs. iOS-like elements mixed with Mac. Too rounded, too bright. Near impossible to customize system icons. I can write a lot about this UI, but i really don't want. Structure and feel of original Mac UI idea was lost. Also FireWire was not supported anymore, so it can't work with my studio sound card.
12.0-15.0+ I installed next versions just for test, but didn't see any improvements in UI. I hoped that something could changed and improved in next big UI redesign, but... Redesigned 26 beta now looks even more eye burning white, more rounded, more unpractical and iOS-like.
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my mac, running tahoe, boots fast, runs stable, looks pretty-good (agree that there's room for improvement). it is, as others have mentioned on this forum, impressive (especially so early in the beta cycle). it's my best mac experience to-date.
Funny you should bring this up, apparently Apple's iOS-ified system layout has made it harder for younger generations to understand what a filesystem is. Not exactly related to UI/skeuomorphism, but still interesting to think about how Apple's decision to use an app-first desktop environment* led to students not understanding how directory structures work.That is the elitist argument that many people used to justify flat design. It’s an ignorant argument that reeks of privilege. That argument was widely propagated by flat design supporters in 2013 (when Apple released iOS 7), but the data from 2017 and 2021 shows how extremely and utterly wrong it is.
In 2017, the World Economic Forum reported that in wealthy OECD countries, “A quarter of adults can’t use a computer” and “Almost a quarter (24.3%) of the people in the study don’t know how to use one. Ten per cent had never used a computer…”
In 2021, the United Nations reported that 2.9 billion people, which is 37% of the world’s population, have never used the Internet.
Sources:
The four levels of computer skills, and the surprising number of adults who fall short
Only 5% of people in OECD countries are any good with a computer.
More than a third of world’s population have never used internet, says UN
Nearly 3bn people, or 37% of global population, have never been online despite rise in use during pandemic
* I know iPhones aren't a desktop, but I'm struggling to find a better term for this. Compare to the Finder/Window desktop with folders and the DOS-prompts before then.
I have talked about this before but I feel one of the major failings of iOS 7 design is the removal of button shapes. When I am helping an "average" person use a computer, they do not explore or discover at all, they only click on what they already know does something, and the solution to their problem is very often me just telling them that some button exists. He wasn't trying to talk about the lack of access to computers itself, but rather the follow-on effect from certain groups having already accustomed themselves to computers such that they could handle the downgrade in usability.
"How do I send this to someone?" "The share button." "What's that?" (The share button's design is very ambiguous and doesn't really show what it does unless you already know what it does, though in fairness it was like that even with skeuomorphism)
Nowadays the only indication that something can be clicked is the color on iOS, typically blue, but this can change depending on the app's accent color. This is obviously bad for colorblind people, and the "show button shapes" setting does not actually do what it says (it does add an underline to tappable text. but no button shapes on any buttons).
Thankfully this is slightly different for BS macOS, the button shapes setting does add shapes to buttons, but without that setting buttons don't have color, texture, or shape to help identify them. They are just free-floating symbols or text. Occasionally I find myself clicking some piece of text or symbol with the hope that maybe it does something in a new app I recently started using.
As a kid I wanted to learn how computers work, and I believe that greatly helped me become "very good at using computers". But most people are not like us, they simply want to get their work done. The computer is a tool, and appliance, a means to an end. If they cannot figure something out quickly, they will do something differently. Notice how many people repeatedly Save-As documents, adding (1) and -FINAL or -REVISION2 to the end, because they do not know how to use a version control system? Apple does have a very nice revisions system built into macOS. Most people won't discover it because most people don't think clicking through menus aimlessly is a fun or worthwhile endeavor.
Also, I think the point the person you were responding to was making was that when these people who have not previously had access to computers do end up with access, the design language that throws away the basics/simplicity/skeuomorphism will make it harder for them to use computers.
The reason people are willing, is due to this thing called 'time'!
If there was ever an advertisement, as to why non-developers should not only, not be able to download a beta, but shouldn't be able to evaluate it, read the above posts. The response by friends, who are developers for some major companies, including Microsoft, when they read the discussions since WWDC 2025, was awesome, one spat the drink he had, so hard, due to the most forceful bout of laughter I have ever seen.
Developers are the one who are complaining, and two months isn't much time to fix all the stupid decisions made in a year or more. They showed it publicly, so it's normal that everyone and their cats and dogs are going to say something about it. All if they fix some things because people rightly complains, all the better.
I am a developer, and the first impression was "what's this crap".
I am a developer, and the first impression was "what's this crap".
So you believe that all the changes to Liquid Glass in beta 3 would have happened solely because of feedback in the Feedback app? Not because online discussions like this?
To be fair, I don’t really know what you’re on about in your reply.
Your friend thought non-devs that complain about esthetics are funny?
You don’t understand that people complain as early as they did so that Apple had more than 2 months to make changes and evaluate how the (beta) user base responds to them?
Glad to hear four friend had a laugh out of this fiasco, so did I.
Yawn! Not attempting to discuss this with you, as I've learnt, as many have, that you have a viewpoint, that is far removed from logical reasoning, and you are as concretely fixed in that position, regardless of many members demonstrating it's flaws.
I didn’t ask for an argument, I wanted clarification for what you said. Also, it’s not me that started this again.
You’re talking about „willingness because of time“ but fail to acknowledge that the time has already passed. Three months compared to what, at least twelve? Liquid Glass is being downgraded and not for no reason.
Me, personally, I guessed this would happen eventually. You, apparently not so much. Telling.
Think about my personal viewpoints what you want, the final release (of iOS) is what counts. And so far, it doesn’t count on you and people like you that wanted to dwarf and silence any opposition to how it was in beta 1 (and 2). Apparently criticizing obvious drawbacks to an useless transparent design language isn’t a fruitless task or without reason 🤷 common sense isn’t for everybody, „far removed from logical reasoning“ lol, takes one to know one?
Looks like the opposition didn’t land of deaf ears, apart from yours.
Like I said previously, I get your point, but you seem to get no one else’s. But please, go on and tell me how you and your buddies think I’m wrong.
See you in September 👋
I think Apple will have Tahoe sailing pretty smooth and looking good by then. I have some confidence in them. Let's hope they get it to your liking better by then too!
I find it funny that:
- People are chanting "everyone else is scared of change," when there are real, legitimate rules of UX and UI design (including around hierarchy and contrast) that the current Tahoe betas are letting down, if not outright breaking. You can only really say this if you think UX/UI is some kind of magic, rather than a discipline with rules.
- Apple is double-downing on spreading the interface for a VR headset that most people don't care about to all its other, more successful products.