technocoy said:
I just figured they might appreciate a little constructive criticism, thats all.
Pretentious? Moi??
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I just figured they might appreciate a little constructive criticism, thats all.
Pretentious? Moi??
RubberChicken said:
Sure then someone with as much experience as you have must have come to the same conclusion that I have in the 6 months that I've been out of college...
Yes, there are a lot of novice "designers" out there that know how to use photoshop, but don't understand that the computer can't give you a concept, it's only a tool. I even graduated with a few. But any designer who does good work will be paid well. That's something you must remember. Just because Joe Blow with PS is willing to do a logo for cheap, that doesn't mean it has any effect on "real" designers. Pentagram isn't going to start chargin less just because there are a lot of crappy freelancers out there. The one thing that I love about design is it's honesty. You know when something is good...and you know when a designer is good...and you (as a client seeking a designer) know that when you pay top dollar, you are paying for the best creative minds.
The people that would ever want a real designer to design for less money than he or she should, don't represent real clients. Your scenario of my offer helping to destroy the collective value of design, only applies to those designers that would be willing to offer their services on the cheap on a regular basis....that is, untrained freelancers. Like has been said before by others...my offering to do a logo has no effect on the industry...the only people that is pisses off are people that are jostling against me for work. And I don't look for freelance work, and only do one logo every couple of months for someone, so I really don't offer my services often enough for me to have any kind of impact on the industry. I wish I had that kind of influence, but you really do give me too much credit.
The design community isn't suffering by me doing a little charity work, so relax and go read I.D. or Print or something.
Someday soon you'll see me in there! Mblazened said:
http://www.maxforward.com: Resistttt, must resistttttttttttt being honestttttt.....the painnnnn.
use the force inkster...
as i too know your pain, and all to well... it has taken hours from my peaceful existence trying to resist the dark urge to tell it like it is... LOL
as i too know your pain, and all to well... it has taken hours from my peaceful existence trying to resist the dark urge to tell it like it is... LOL
Peyote said:Sure then someone with as much experience as you have must have come to the same conclusion that I have in the 6 months that I've been out of college...
Yes, there are a lot of novice "designers" out there that know how to use photoshop, but don't understand that the computer can't give you a concept, it's only a tool. I even graduated with a few. But any designer who does good work will be paid well. That's something you must remember. Just because Joe Blow with PS is willing to do a logo for cheap, that doesn't mean it has any effect on "real" designers. Pentagram isn't going to start chargin less just because there are a lot of crappy freelancers out there. The one thing that I love about design is it's honesty. You know when something is good...and you know when a designer is good...and you (as a client seeking a designer) know that when you pay top dollar, you are paying for the best creative minds.
The people that would ever want a real designer to design for less money than he or she should, don't represent real clients. Your scenario of my offer helping to destroy the collective value of design, only applies to those designers that would be willing to offer their services on the cheap on a regular basis....that is, untrained freelancers. Like has been said before by others...my offering to do a logo has no effect on the industry...the only people that is pisses off are people that are jostling against me for work. And I don't look for freelance work, and only do one logo every couple of months for someone, so I really don't offer my services often enough for me to have any kind of impact on the industry. I wish I had that kind of influence, but you really do give me too much credit.
The design community isn't suffering by me doing a little charity work, so relax and go read I.D. or Print or something.
Come on peyote, RubberChicken isnt even talking about you in his discussion, there's no need to attack him. People please dont turn this ugly
I actually don't think anybody is personally attacking anyone else here, but rather they are having a very good - and much needed - discussion about the graphic design field.
As long as everyone stays respectful and does not sink to personal attacks, maybe we can all learn something.
And now for my 2¢: Good for you, Peyote, for not thinking like a typical capitalist and worshipping the dollar over the muse, so to speak. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this and other designers (myself included) have no reason to feel threatened (and if they do that's their problem anyway).
As long as everyone stays respectful and does not sink to personal attacks, maybe we can all learn something.
And now for my 2¢: Good for you, Peyote, for not thinking like a typical capitalist and worshipping the dollar over the muse, so to speak. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this and other designers (myself included) have no reason to feel threatened (and if they do that's their problem anyway).
Mblazened said:
If you two want to "duke it out" please just spare us and this thread and PM each other.
Thanks.
Wow... this is a rather touchy thread... regardless, could whoever got the job (I'm so confused...) post the logo they end up making? I'm all curious about it now...
Peyote and Mblazened got it... i think. maybe they can post it after they finish. Even better, the person who start this thread can start a poll. Hmm... maybe not... touchy thread. but i would still like to see the finished product.comictimes said:
i haven't had a chance to check back
till today... wow. I dodn't mean to start anything between anybody. I actually had gotten really frustrated with all the so called designers that were doing no better than I could with a $25 logo creater program. They were not even listening to me or thinking for themselves. For comic relief, plese see the google ads below all the posts (logos for $25 and the like) I e-mailed two people that responded to my post. I don't know if this was in poor etiquite. They have both been evry nice to me. I liked a lot of the webites everyone has up. Some people like different kinds of art/design than others. Some are more limited by their jobs than others. Whether you like someone's designs or not, I find it refreshing that so many are passionate about their work. That is what make all the offers here so much different that all the other encounters I have had. That's why I posted here... i figured I could use the often repeated "macs are only for the artsy types" mantra to my advantage for once. Anyway, I didn;t want to start a post that would be filled with animosity. On the upside, I think everyone has had a chance to see some websites they might not have otherwise gone to.
till today... wow. I dodn't mean to start anything between anybody. I actually had gotten really frustrated with all the so called designers that were doing no better than I could with a $25 logo creater program. They were not even listening to me or thinking for themselves. For comic relief, plese see the google ads below all the posts (logos for $25 and the like) I e-mailed two people that responded to my post. I don't know if this was in poor etiquite. They have both been evry nice to me. I liked a lot of the webites everyone has up. Some people like different kinds of art/design than others. Some are more limited by their jobs than others. Whether you like someone's designs or not, I find it refreshing that so many are passionate about their work. That is what make all the offers here so much different that all the other encounters I have had. That's why I posted here... i figured I could use the often repeated "macs are only for the artsy types" mantra to my advantage for once. Anyway, I didn;t want to start a post that would be filled with animosity. On the upside, I think everyone has had a chance to see some websites they might not have otherwise gone to.
Hey y'all, just wanted to apologize for being such a a$$, I usually keep my personal opinions to myself but I wanted to stir the pot to generate more interest in this thread. I noticed that since it started, I had lots of hits to my website and i just wanted to see how far it could go... thats all. I know I spoke disrespectfully but I really didn't mean what I said and I think y'all are great designers and good luck to all for the future. And I promise not be so sneaky anymore and actually i was surprised everybody kept their cool when I kept pressing it. Anyway, PEACE
Mblazened said:
you were cool in the eighties right? j/k
sorry couldn't help myself... really, your style looks totally eighties. i bet someone finds that really cool.****
im ashamed to call myself a designer: old-school designers who don't see were it's going and new school designers who are stuck in VR2Ls design styles from the late nineties... and no point for ripping off Designers Republic either (you know ho you are).
glad he found an artist; though i hate to see logos and such (or anything really) produces so sloppy and cheap. everythings diposable. if the logo doesn't really matter much thatn neither does the company.
*so where's my stuff? it's coming... it's coming...
peace.
Peyote- don't sell yourself so cheap... designers are expensive hookers!
So, you think one person does not make a difference?
Such grand idealism. I fondly I remember... Um, you do realise you just argued that one person does not make a difference.
Just to be perfectly clear, I not pissed off, and I'm not "jostling you for work". Oh, and I'm not a cheap freelancer. And I'm not short of work.
Peyote said:Sure then someone with as much experience as you have must have come to the same conclusion that I have in the 6 months that I've been out of college...
Yes, there are a lot of novice "designers" out there that know how to use photoshop, but don't understand that the computer can't give you a concept, it's only a tool. I even graduated with a few. But any designer who does good work will be paid well. That's something you must remember. Just because Joe Blow with PS is willing to do a logo for cheap, that doesn't mean it has any effect on "real" designers. Pentagram isn't going to start chargin less just because there are a lot of crappy freelancers out there. The one thing that I love about design is it's honesty. You know when something is good...and you know when a designer is good...and you (as a client seeking a designer) know that when you pay top dollar, you are paying for the best creative minds.
The people that would ever want a real designer to design for less money than he or she should, don't represent real clients. Your scenario of my offer helping to destroy the collective value of design, only applies to those designers that would be willing to offer their services on the cheap on a regular basis....that is, untrained freelancers. Like has been said before by others...my offering to do a logo has no effect on the industry...the only people that is pisses off are people that are jostling against me for work. And I don't look for freelance work, and only do one logo every couple of months for someone, so I really don't offer my services often enough for me to have any kind of impact on the industry. I wish I had that kind of influence, but you really do give me too much credit.
The design community isn't suffering by me doing a little charity work, so relax and go read I.D. or Print or something.
Such grand idealism. I fondly I remember... Um, you do realise you just argued that one person does not make a difference.
Just to be perfectly clear, I not pissed off, and I'm not "jostling you for work". Oh, and I'm not a cheap freelancer. And I'm not short of work.
angelneo said:
Thanks for the defence my friend. I guess to be fair I was using his ignorance as an example of a broader issue not confined to one industry.
Peyote said:I prefer the term "design whore" when I refer to my corporate job.
and so they rape you...
**** that ****; don't drag me down too... im expensive! practically a virgin.
peace.
RubberChicken said:Thanks for the defence my friend. I guess to be fair I was using his ignorance as an example of a broader issue not confined to one industry.
I just sent you a private message. If you still want to argue about something and make personal attacks and accusations at me, I suggest you do it there and try to maintain a mature attitude...seeing as how you are so much more grounded in reality, enlightened, and experienced than I.
I find it ironic that you call me ignorant, despite the fact that you are:
1) thanking someone for defending you, when they were completely wrong in what they were saying and admitted so
2) refusing to carry on a debate which you started with accusations
3) admitting that your own accusation is flawed because you just now decided that you were talking about some phenomenon that spans multiple industries
I can't vouch for you, but I'm the kind of person who doesn't beat around the bush. I'm not the kind of person that would deny being pissed off, yet resort to calling someone "ignorant" or a "grand idealist." The only time you use derogitory language when talking about someone is either when you are pissed off, or don't have an arguement, but don't want to lose the fight. So which is it exactly?
Very interesting discussion, I can't believe I missed out on this.
I agree with the points made about computer skills. Everything I know in terms of design is self taught from books and my own studies, I do not start Graphic Design until next year. However recently I was taking a look at a design grad show at the Ontario College of Art and Design. We were looking at stuff and some I really liked, some I didn't like. My friend with me hardly liked any of it, I asked why. He said we could do so much better. so I thought for a bit, and asked why. He said most of this stuff is easy to do, I disagreed. Now he is going into graphic design as well.
So I tried to explain, technically most of the work your looking at is simple to recreate, or produce the same results on a computer, but coming up with a concept, devloping it, refining it until it works and communicates what you want is a whole process a lot of people do not understand. It is sad really, the computer is just a tool.
I often admire the 60s and 70s swiss graphic design works, Muller-Brockmann, Hoffmann, etc,,, It was simple and efficient. Less is more, I think that will always be true, and I think with the computer making it so easy to place type anywhere and add a photoshop filter to something its easy to get carried away without even thinking if you cannot see past the computer. Furthermore, I think it can be the same with clients. You may do something really simple that could be highly effective, but they dont always see that for what its worth, they expect something different and can be easily impressed by a gross looking bevel lol.
When i did one of my early logo's I started directly on the computer too. It ended up turning out semi-decent, but the end result was rather literal and could have been done better now that I look back on it. The next logo I started by doodling on tests during kinese in high school and all over my sketchbook I drew out concepts and different variations and scribbles, notes etc. Than I went to the computer and refined the concepts I had developed and as a result I it worked very well now that i had explored an array of solutions and I was even more pleased with the outcome than previous works. Designers should never abandon the good ole pen and paper.
Anyways was just ranting with whatever this topic came to mind lol.
Peyote, i also want to comment on your website. Very simple, and I don't know if this is your goal but I have talked about the following idea with others. The pdfs are really great on your site and I have always believed that educating the client on some basic things can really help justify your choices down the road when working with them, then they can understand things from a design perspective. Too many clients try to control what the outcome looks like when they don't understand sometimes. After seeing some of the work from your company Peyote, I am definately looking forward to your concept.
I think posting the concepts would be a great idea, let people give critiques or something regardless of which ones goes through. getting a good critique is a geat way to improve
Blah anyways my website is in my sig, actually working on a new identity as we speak for a company in England.
I agree with the points made about computer skills. Everything I know in terms of design is self taught from books and my own studies, I do not start Graphic Design until next year. However recently I was taking a look at a design grad show at the Ontario College of Art and Design. We were looking at stuff and some I really liked, some I didn't like. My friend with me hardly liked any of it, I asked why. He said we could do so much better. so I thought for a bit, and asked why. He said most of this stuff is easy to do, I disagreed. Now he is going into graphic design as well.
So I tried to explain, technically most of the work your looking at is simple to recreate, or produce the same results on a computer, but coming up with a concept, devloping it, refining it until it works and communicates what you want is a whole process a lot of people do not understand. It is sad really, the computer is just a tool.
I often admire the 60s and 70s swiss graphic design works, Muller-Brockmann, Hoffmann, etc,,, It was simple and efficient. Less is more, I think that will always be true, and I think with the computer making it so easy to place type anywhere and add a photoshop filter to something its easy to get carried away without even thinking if you cannot see past the computer. Furthermore, I think it can be the same with clients. You may do something really simple that could be highly effective, but they dont always see that for what its worth, they expect something different and can be easily impressed by a gross looking bevel lol.
When i did one of my early logo's I started directly on the computer too. It ended up turning out semi-decent, but the end result was rather literal and could have been done better now that I look back on it. The next logo I started by doodling on tests during kinese in high school
and all over my sketchbook I drew out concepts and different variations and scribbles, notes etc. Than I went to the computer and refined the concepts I had developed and as a result I it worked very well now that i had explored an array of solutions and I was even more pleased with the outcome than previous works. Designers should never abandon the good ole pen and paper.Anyways was just ranting with whatever this topic came to mind lol.
Peyote, i also want to comment on your website. Very simple, and I don't know if this is your goal but I have talked about the following idea with others. The pdfs are really great on your site and I have always believed that educating the client on some basic things can really help justify your choices down the road when working with them, then they can understand things from a design perspective. Too many clients try to control what the outcome looks like when they don't understand sometimes. After seeing some of the work from your company Peyote, I am definately looking forward to your concept.
I think posting the concepts would be a great idea, let people give critiques or something regardless of which ones goes through. getting a good critique is a geat way to improve
Blah anyways my website is in my sig, actually working on a new identity as we speak for a company in England.
RubberChicken said:
I liked your site a lot. Nice color scheme, layout, and attention to good typography. Don't listen to that guy with the Adobe Golive-designed site with the centered white text on the black background and the freewebs.com counter (although I seriously doubt that you did listen to him
)