Looking for HD Camcorder

[Cooknn]

Poor man's widescreen

I've got a 3CCD Panasonic PV-GS200 and although it's not Hi-Def, I can shoot with the widescreen mask on the 2.5" LCD screen. I bring it into Final Cut Express using an anamorphic preset, then when done with my sequence I distort it to remove the black space at the top and the bottom. This creates a 16:9 movie that will play full screen on your widescreen TV and letterboxed on a 4:3 TV (if you check that option).

It's the only affordable way that I could find to do widescreen with a 3CCD camera.

 

[hotwire132002]

I've got a 3CCD Panasonic PV-GS200 and although it's not Hi-Def, I can shoot with the widescreen mask on the 2.5" LCD screen. I bring it into Final Cut Express using an anamorphic preset, then when done with my sequence I distort it to remove the black space at the top and the bottom. This creates a 16:9 movie that will play full screen on your widescreen TV and letterboxed on a 4:3 box (if you check that option).

It's the only affordable way that I could find to do widescreen with a 3CCD camera.

How's the quality on that camera? I REALLY like the price, but I'm concerned that the quality will suffer because of the price. I do like the fact that it's a 3-CCD camera. I'm thinking I could go with a couple of these for a couple years and then upgrade to a Hi-Def camera when prices come down and HDV matures. I really want a 3-CCD camera, but I don't want to spend $2000+ when I'd like to upgrade to HD within a couple years.

 

[hotwire132002]

How's the quality on that camera? I REALLY like the price, but I'm concerned that the quality will suffer because of the price. I do like the fact that it's a 3-CCD camera. I'm thinking I could go with a couple of these for a couple years and then upgrade to a Hi-Def camera when prices come down and HDV matures. I really want a 3-CCD camera, but I don't want to spend $2000+ when I'd like to upgrade to HD within a couple years.

Also, have you used the reseller you linked to? It's about $100 cheaper than B&H (where I usually buy from), but if someone can confirm that they're reliable, I'd go for that in a second!

 

[blackfox]

Not to further complicate your choices Hotwire, but here is another model to consider: PANASONIC PV-DV953.

It seems to well reviewed and reasonably priced. Funnily enough I remember being intrigued with it's PAL version the mx300 several years ago, which many people were importing because of it's features/quality.

Camcorderinfo has a review (linked earlier in thread).

It is not HD, nor is it the best in it's field, but it does hold it's own against the likes of the Canon GL2 and Sony TRV950 (which despite my misgivings, you might like).

Priced between $800-1300 w/ most online retailers.

FWIW

**EDIT** reading your above post, I will add:

- yes, there are widescreen lenses available.
- B&H actually sponsored a contest between three cameras priced between $1000 and $1400...the pv-dv953 won hands down.
- It has since been replaced by the PV-GS400, which is supposedly even better.

Either camera would be good. See camcorderinfo for more info on both cameras. I would provide links, but the site makes Safari want to crash for some reason...

 

[Cooknn]

Also, have you used the reseller you linked to? It's about $100 cheaper than B&H (where I usually buy from), but if someone can confirm that they're reliable, I'd go for that in a second!

The quality is excellent - and so is the reseller. I bought mine from Beach Camera. No problems and saved a bunch.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Also, have you used the reseller you linked to? It's about $100 cheaper than B&H (where I usually buy from), but if someone can confirm that they're reliable, I'd go for that in a second!

I would stay away from gray market retailers like Beach Camera and Abe's of Maine. The potentional to have your shopping experience turn into a royal PITA is much more likely than at a retailer that's completely on the up and up. I've considered buying from gray market places before because of the lower prices, but in the end I've always decided to purchase from a retailer I can trust. Too many horror stories w/the grey market places.


Lethal

 

[srdashiki]

HD, pointless.

Only broadcast is HDTV.
DVDs, not HDTV.

So unless you are planning on going directly from camera, to computer to broadcast. YOU DONT NEED HD!!!

HD is stupid right now 4 different standards and none are perfected.

Why does anyone want HD? Ooooh i can say I got an HD camera. Go buy a 3CCD camera with an anamorphic lens, thats all you need. Until ALL CHANNELS ARE HDTV it is pointless to shoot in HD, cuz I bet none of you are ever going to put yer **** on television.

 

[hotwire132002]

HD, pointless.

Only broadcast is HDTV.
DVDs, not HDTV.

So unless you are planning on going directly from camera, to computer to broadcast. YOU DONT NEED HD!!!

HD is stupid right now 4 different standards and none are perfected.

Why does anyone want HD? Ooooh i can say I got an HD camera. Go buy a 3CCD camera with an anamorphic lens, thats all you need. Until ALL CHANNELS ARE HDTV it is pointless to shoot in HD, cuz I bet none of you are ever going to put yer **** on television.

A) I happen to work for a television station.

B) I happen to be an independent filmmaker--and I can really use the HD.

 

[hotwire132002]

Not to further complicate your choices Hotwire, but here is another model to consider: PANASONIC PV-DV953.

It seems to well reviewed and reasonably priced. Funnily enough I remember being intrigued with it's PAL version the mx300 several years ago, which many people were importing because of it's features/quality.

Camcorderinfo has a review (linked earlier in thread).

It is not HD, nor is it the best in it's field, but it does hold it's own against the likes of the Canon GL2 and Sony TRV950 (which despite my misgivings, you might like).

Priced between $800-1300 w/ most online retailers.

FWIW

**EDIT** reading your above post, I will add:

- yes, there are widescreen lenses available.
- B&H actually sponsored a contest between three cameras priced between $1000 and $1400...the pv-dv953 won hands down.
- It has since been replaced by the PV-GS400, which is supposedly even better.

Either camera would be good. See camcorderinfo for more info on both cameras. I would provide links, but the site makes Safari want to crash for some reason...

I'll have to check that camera out. I've pretty much decided on the Panasonic (Whatsit?)-200. Great price, and it should be fine for me for a few years, after which I'll upgrade to HD.

Off-topic, but cool: I'm typing this from an iMac G5 at the nearest Apple retailer to me (about an hour away in Traverse City)--the first time I've seen one in person--and they RULE! It's a really cool system. I talked my neighbors into getting one. Their first Mac 😀 !

 

[LethalWolfe]

HD, pointless.

Really?

Only broadcast is HDTV.

If you mean only broadcast TV is HD you are wrong. If you mean "HDTV" will only exist in broadcast TV then are you right and very good at stating the obvious (it's called HDTV for a reason).

DVDs, not HDTV.

Of course DVDs aren't going to be HDTV, but relatively soon there will be HD-DVDs.

So unless you are planning on going directly from camera, to computer to broadcast. YOU DONT NEED HD!!!

Wrong.

HD is stupid right now 4 different standards and none are perfected.

That comment is just ignorant.

Why does anyone want HD?

Significant increase in quality maybe?

Ooooh i can say I got an HD camera. Go buy a 3CCD camera with an anamorphic lens, thats all you need.

How is your computer w/640k of RAM treating you these days?

Until ALL CHANNELS ARE HDTV it is pointless to shoot in HD, cuz I bet none of you are ever going to put yer **** on television.

So it's pointless to shoot in HD even though there are HD cable channels and more and more stations are broadcasting SD and HD content side-by-side? It's pointless to shot in HD even though shooting in HD and down converting to SD will yield a higher quality image than shooting in SD to begin with?

Also, I would be careful what you bet on 'cause right now yer dead wrong.


Lethal

 

[Hoef]

cuz I bet none of you are ever going to put yer **** on television.

I am a video artist and most of my fellow artists exhibit in HD.... Have to compete!

 

[Rod Rod]

For the price you are looking for you aren't going to get a true HD camera. HDV is coming around the corner though (and I would stay away from that JVC 1chip). Is the 3 chip Sony keep refering to their HDV camera that is going to come out soon?

hotwire132002, I own the JVC HD10. You can use footage shot on the HD10 in Final Cut Pro, even without buying the Heuris or Lumiere solutions. It takes a couple of intermediate steps though.

First you have to download the FireWire SDK from Apple, and install the utility called DVHSCap. With that you'll be able to control playback and capture your footage. It works sort of like iMovie, as you have to attend to it the whole time and there is no batch capture, but there is no preview of what you're capturing on the screen so you have to watch the camera's flip-out LCD.

Next you'll have to transcode the MPEG2 TS you've just captured into a Final Cut Pro codec. I forgot the name of the utility that does that transcoding but I believe it's freeware. DVCPRO HD is a good choice, but if you have the hardware you could also transcode to 10-bit uncompressed HD. I think you can use DVHSCap to record a flie back out to your camera but I'm not sure.

I own LumiereHD, and it is excellent for automating the above tasks. Even better, it allows you to edit in an offline codec and then reconnect to a camera original format output, and then output to the camera (as well as a JVC D-VHS deck, which makes more sense because the maximum tape length the HD10 takes is 80 minutes, whereas you can get something like 2.5 hours on a D-VHS tape at full quality).

The limitation LumiereHD has is it loses audio synch for clips over 1000 frames long. That's because of Apple's MPEG2 codec, according to the folks at LHD. Hopefully Apple will fix the MPEG2 bug before including HDV in FCP... otherwise there'll be a lot of dissatisfaction all over the place, instead of where it is right now (among the few of us doing long format productions with the JVC HD cameras).

I've seen HD1s go for $1900 and HD10s go for $2200 on eBay. If I were you I wouldn't bid any higher than that. You should be able to get a good deal because a lot of early adopters seem to be "dumping" their JVCs in favor of the upcoming Sonys.

I would love to get the Sony HDV camera. The consumer version is coming out in November, and the pro model comes in February 2005. The only problem I have with it is that it has no progressive shooting modes (the "Cineframe" modes are 24 fps interlaced). Both Sony HDV cameras shoot 1080 60i.

The best thing about the Sony HDV cameras is their low light performance. With the JVC you better be shooting in daylight, or if you're shooting indoors you need a camera light or studio type lighting to get decent results. I mostly do outdoor shooting in broad daylight.

 

[hotwire132002]

hotwire132002, I own the JVC HD10. You can use footage shot on the HD10 in Final Cut Pro, even without buying the Heuris or Lumiere solutions. It takes a couple of intermediate steps though.

First you have to download the FireWire SDK from Apple, and install the utility called DVHSCap. With that you'll be able to control playback and capture your footage. It works sort of like iMovie, as you have to attend to it the whole time and there is no batch capture, but there is no preview of what you're capturing on the screen so you have to watch the camera's flip-out LCD.

Next you'll have to transcode the MPEG2 TS you've just captured into a Final Cut Pro codec. I forgot the name of the utility that does that transcoding but I believe it's freeware. DVCPRO HD is a good choice, but if you have the hardware you could also transcode to 10-bit uncompressed HD. I think you can use DVHSCap to record a flie back out to your camera but I'm not sure.

I own LumiereHD, and it is excellent for automating the above tasks. Even better, it allows you to edit in an offline codec and then reconnect to a camera original format output, and then output to the camera (as well as a JVC D-VHS deck, which makes more sense because the maximum tape length the HD10 takes is 80 minutes, whereas you can get something like 2.5 hours on a D-VHS tape at full quality).

The limitation LumiereHD has is it loses audio synch for clips over 1000 frames long. That's because of Apple's MPEG2 codec, according to the folks at LHD. Hopefully Apple will fix the MPEG2 bug before including HDV in FCP... otherwise there'll be a lot of dissatisfaction all over the place, instead of where it is right now (among the few of us doing long format productions with the JVC HD cameras).

I've seen HD1s go for $1900 and HD10s go for $2200 on eBay. If I were you I wouldn't bid any higher than that. You should be able to get a good deal because a lot of early adopters seem to be "dumping" their JVCs in favor of the upcoming Sonys.

I would love to get the Sony HDV camera. The consumer version is coming out in November, and the pro model comes in February 2005. The only problem I have with it is that it has no progressive shooting modes (the "Cineframe" modes are 24 fps interlaced). Both Sony HDV cameras shoot 1080 60i.

The best thing about the Sony HDV cameras is their low light performance. With the JVC you better be shooting in daylight, or if you're shooting indoors you need a camera light or studio type lighting to get decent results. I mostly do outdoor shooting in broad daylight.

Thanks for the advice. However, for budget reasons I am going with a low-end standard def 3-CCD camera--I can pick a good Panasonic up for about $780. In a couple years I'll upgrade to HD, but for now I'm sticking with standard def.

 

[Rod Rod]

Thanks for the advice. However, for budget reasons I am going with a low-end standard def 3-CCD camera--I can pick a good Panasonic up for about $780. In a couple years I'll upgrade to HD, but for now I'm sticking with standard def.

you're welcome. that's a good plan. hopefully someone out there will make an optical 16:9 adapter for smaller cameras and make it cheap.

check vanns.com for Panasonics. they won't try to upsell you the way those East Coast dealers do (some of them withhold the included battery and charger unless you pay them extra ... there are all sorts of horror stories about those outfits at sites like epinions).

 

[hotwire132002]

OK, I'm just about ready to get my new camera--I plan to go for the Panasonic PV-GS200. I can get it for $780 from B&H. It's not HD, but it IS a 3CCD camera, and I figure it will last me a good few years, after which the price of HD will (hopefully) have come down and I can upgrade. Before I buy the camera, though, I'm wondering if anyone here who has used one can give me a review. I've read good things, and according to camcorderinfo.com it's going to be a much better camera than my current ZR60. If someone can give me a good pros/cons review, that'd be awesome!

 

[Cooknn]

OK, I'm just about ready to get my new camera--I plan to go for the Panasonic PV-GS200. I can get it for $780 from B&H. It's not HD, but it IS a 3CCD camera, and I figure it will last me a good few years, after which the price of HD will (hopefully) have come down and I can upgrade.

I bought the PV-GS200 for the same reason. The most bang for the buck with a 3CCD camcorder. It's a great camera and I couldn't be happier - until someday I get an HD Camcorder 😀 For detailed reviews, camcorderinfo.com is as good as it gets.

 

[hotwire132002]

I bought the PV-GS200 for the same reason. The most bang for the buck with a 3CCD camcorder. It's a great camera and I couldn't be happier - until someday I get an HD Camcorder 😀 For detailed reviews, camcorderinfo.com is as good as it gets.

I've heard mixed things about low-light performance--how do you find it works in low-light situations?

 

[Cooknn]

I've only had to adjust the brightness on a clip in FCE a couple of times, but that's no big deal to me. I shot about an hour of footage at a night race at Indianapolis Raceway Park last spring and it looked great.

 

[hotwire132002]

I've only had to adjust the brightness on a clip in FCE a couple of times, but that's no big deal to me. I shot about an hour of footage at a night race at Indianapolis Raceway Park last spring and it looked great.

Thanks for the help! Hopefully I'll get one of these soon. I really need a new camera!

 

[unixkid]

lol

Ur obviously new and wanting to shoot HD...U r asking the wrong people on the wrong site... Goto Here for ALL of ur HD needs and questions.

 

[hotwire132002]

Ur obviously new and wanting to shoot HD...U r asking the wrong people on the wrong site... Goto Here for ALL of ur HD needs and questions.

I am by no means "new".

I'm not even sure what you mean I'm new to, but if it's this site, definately not. If it's video, definately DEFINATELY not.

 

[GeneralAntilles]

Don't buy the Sony

A buddy of mine at work has a friend who works for Turner's Dinner & a Movie. They recently purchased half a dozen of the Sony cameras . . . they're ****. Noisy, with very poor color quality and definition. HD is the hype right now and you'd do best to avoid HD digital cameras, even the big movie studies with their $100k-$200k USD HD cameras don't quiet match up to 35mm. If you want a decent camera, look at something like the Canon XL2 or GL2. The Panasonics mentioned here are also decent performers. Overall 24p really doesn't even compare to 35mm or Super-16mm and isn't ready for film-level production.

 

[Hoef]

Overall 24p really doesn't even compare to 35mm or Super-16mm and isn't ready for film-level production.

Good comments, though people would just be happy to buy HD anyway ... It must be surely better than the alternative for that money?

 

[Rod Rod]

Good comments, though people would just be happy to buy HD anyway ... It must be surely better than the alternative for that money?

Yup.. HD is better than DV. What DV has on its side though is a number of nice camcorders such as the Panasonic DVX-100A, Sony PD-170 and Canon XL2. When the first wave of miniDV cameras came, there were plenty of people who were happy with their analog video8 cameras such as the Canon L2. We're seeing a similar phenomenon with people comparing mature miniDV cameras to the first wave of HDV cameras. In both cases, the new format is superior to the old, and the new cameras aren't nearly as mature as the old ones. This shouldn't take too long to change.

It takes a little bit of work to get your HDV footage to look great, and it's worth it. As for GeneralAntilles' report about the Sony HDV cameras being "noisy," well those people should look into buying an isolator for their camera-mounted shotgun mic. The people using the cameras should also learn how to use the manual controls.

unixkid, hotwire132002 is an old-timer. 🙂

 

[GeneralAntilles]

As for GeneralAntilles' report about the Sony HDV cameras being "noisy," well those people should look into buying an isolator for their camera-mounted shotgun mic.

I'm speaking of the image, not the mic. The image quality on the Sony is of a very poor quality, and in most cases worse than a similar MiniDV like the XL2.