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Chip NoVaMac said:
Andrew, it sounds like you really have done your homework. Congrats, in the end I think that you will make the right choice.

Another factor to consider is how a camera feels in your hands. A camera that is priced right, but not comfortable might not be used as much as one that does.

Keep in mind that the 350D feature wise (excluding the 8mp sensor) beats many "pro" level DSLRs from just in the last two or three years.
Thanks. :) I always like to do a lot of research before I make a purchase, especially one as expensive as this.

I know that I'll have to go down to a shop when they get one in and hold it, but it definitely looks like it'll be the most comfortable for me out of the cameras I've been looking at.
 
"It's really a hobby thing, and I can't think of much where I'd even need the 3fps shooting, let alone 5fps. According to the preview and the review of the 20D, the 350D can take more RAW shots in 30 seconds. (32 vs 27)"

Which review is this?
 
iGary said:
"It's really a hobby thing, and I can't think of much where I'd even need the 3fps shooting, let alone 5fps. According to the preview and the review of the 20D, the 350D can take more RAW shots in 30 seconds. (32 vs 27)"

Which review is this?
dpreview.com's review of the 20D said it was shooting about 27 frames in 30 seconds, and their preview of the 350D said that it shot 32 in 30 seconds. (RAW in both cases)
 
andrewfee said:
dpreview.com's review of the 20D said it was shooting about 27 frames in 30 seconds, and their preview of the 350D said that it shot 32 in 30 seconds. (RAW in both cases)

I wouldn't be surprised that the 350D could take more shots more quickly since the pixels per inch is most likely a lot lower, just like the 300D, which uses 180 ppi. Uggggh.
 
bousozoku said:
I wouldn't be surprised that the 350D could take more shots more quickly since the pixels per inch is most likely a lot lower, just like the 300D, which uses 180 ppi. Uggggh.
Does the pixels-per inch really make a difference if they're both shooting roughly the same resolution? (3456 x 2304 w/350D, 3504 x 2336 on the 20D)

Surely if an image has the same number of pixels, the only difference is that it will print smaller at a higher ppi rate?

Like I said, I'm new to this, so maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought that would be the case?
 
Dave00 said:
I'm in a bit of a similar boat as the original poster. I've got a Canon S400 which is truly a remarkable camera for outdoor use. I've gotten some amazing panoramas (you can stitch together photos and use the included software to make a Quicktime VR file you can pan & zoom) and macros of wildlife up close.

Where it's really disappointed me was in lower-light situations. Anywhere it's even remotely dim, the picture becomes grainy and I have to try to correct it with software. I know that part of the problem is that the flash is so close to the lens, making flash photography challenging. But more what I'm interested in is photography in lower light that wouldn't require a flash.

Anyone use any of the higher end digital cams in a low-light situation without the flash (e.g., weddings, indoor shots of people, shots in caves, etc.)

thanks

--d

The best way to improve low light digital photography is by using the fastest possible lens (e.g. the Canon 50mm 1.8) so that you do not need to go too high on the ISO. Only the most expensive digital cameras go above about 400 ISO without introducing a lot of noise (the 300D/Rebel is great at 400, mediocre at 800 and dire at 1600). Some newer cameras (like the 20D) have noise reduction features but to be honest this is the only area where digital still can't compete with film.

The other thing to consider, if you have an SLR, is a decent speedlite. I have the top of the range Canon one (550 or something - can't remember) which was expensive £200+ but makes a hige difference because:
(a) the flash light itself sits way above the camera body
(b) it can be angled to bounce light of walls or ceiling
(c) it zooms with the camera so works out how much light to throw at your subject.

Plus if you shoot RAW and use a decent converter (another shout out here for Capture One) you can sort out any over-exposure very easily.
 
Benj said:
The best way to improve low light digital photography is by using the fastest possible lens (e.g. the Canon 50mm 1.8) so that you do not need to go too high on the ISO.

In addition to a fast lens for low light photography, one of the most valuable accessories you can buy is a tripod. It will allow you to take otherwise impossible shots and have everything come out a bit crisper. There's almost as much of a price variance in tripods as there is in cameras, so that can be your next purchase to mull over.

One piece of advice I'm suprised I haven't seen is the question of whether a DSLR is the right choice for all of those posting in this thread. I suppose it comes from the technophile nature of those who post here. :p While SLRs are amazing tools and really neat gadgets, they aren't the most appropriate choice for everyone. There are some amazingly versatile digital cameras with a fixed zoom lens, and the picture quality of many of them is superb. They can be a lot more convenient than an SLR too, and the best camera is always the one you have with you to get the availible shot. That's not to say you should avoid a DSLR, just consider if it's really the best tool for what you want to accomplish.

With that piece of advice, I'll go look at the film SLR I haven't used in a few weeks and consider joining you in the digital revolution. ;)
 
Jeromie said:
In addition to a fast lens for low light photography, one of the most valuable accessories you can buy is a tripod. It will allow you to take otherwise impossible shots and have everything come out a bit crisper. There's almost as much of a price variance in tripods as there is in cameras, so that can be your next purchase to mull over.
This is something I had been meaning to ask about; I currently have an old portable tripod (folds down to about a foot long) but was looking to get something lighter and more stable.

Is there anything you would recommend at a low price-point? (a tripod isn't something I'd want to spend a lot on)
 
andrewfee said:
Does the pixels-per inch really make a difference if they're both shooting roughly the same resolution? (3456 x 2304 w/350D, 3504 x 2336 on the 20D)

Surely if an image has the same number of pixels, the only difference is that it will print smaller at a higher ppi rate?

Like I said, I'm new to this, so maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought that would be the case?

It's all about the print quality and how far you can extend an image.

A cheap printer will mask the difference quite well because everything will look like mush to the trained eye but on a good printer you'll see that there is a distinct advantage to the higher ppi number in the clarity.

The 20D will be much more satisfying because it has more pixels per inch and, most likely, because the sensor is better.

Think of it almost as the negative size on film. We've had several formats over the years but you can obviously get a larger, good quality print from 6x4.5cm or 6x7cm negatives than 35mm (24x36mm) film.

However, if you don't print anything at A3 size or above, it may not matter to you.
 
Thanks for clearing that up. :) I just didn't think it made a difference as it's the same total number of pixels (roughly) and you can set PPI (well, DPI at least) in Photoshop without altering the image at all.
 
Jeromie said:
One piece of advice I'm suprised I haven't seen is the question of whether a DSLR is the right choice for all of those posting in this thread. I suppose it comes from the technophile nature of those who post here. :p While SLRs are amazing tools and really neat gadgets, they aren't the most appropriate choice for everyone. There are some amazingly versatile digital cameras with a fixed zoom lens, and the picture quality of many of them is superb. They can be a lot more convenient than an SLR too, and the best camera is always the one you have with you to get the availible shot. That's not to say you should avoid a DSLR, just consider if it's really the best tool for what you want to accomplish.

With that piece of advice, I'll go look at the film SLR I haven't used in a few weeks and consider joining you in the digital revolution. ;)

Agree.

I have two cameras (well two that still get any use at all ;)) - a DSLR and a very small, cheap 2MP sony. The Sony stays with me most of the time just in case. Pictures aren't great but then better than no pictures at all!

If you are serious about your (digital) photography the SLR is the only way to go. Even the most pro "prosumer" models are difficult to override and do not deliver the flexibility of shooting styles and lenses. Also, if you want to shoot RAW, as far as I know none of the non SLR cameras have it right yet. (Plus given how cheap Canon DSLRs are now the price is not such an issue.)

The decision all comes down to whether you want photography as a hobby or you want to make a record of the things you see and do. Both entirely valid but perhaps requiring different equipment.
 
andrewfee said:
Thanks for clearing that up. :) I just didn't think it made a difference as it's the same total number of pixels (roughly) and you can set PPI (well, DPI at least) in Photoshop without altering the image at all.

Without altering the image at all? :D I like that. Everything done in Photoshop alters the image. It may not be visually apparent but I assure you, the image has changed. :)
 
andrewfee said:
This is something I had been meaning to ask about; I currently have an old portable tripod (folds down to about a foot long) but was looking to get something lighter and more stable.

Is there anything you would recommend at a low price-point? (a tripod isn't something I'd want to spend a lot on)

I have a Velbon Ultra Lux which is very light and folds down quite small (has its own shoulder bag etc.). I think it cost about £80 and I would definitely recommend it.

You can't really scimp on tripods but you only need to spend serious money if you have a heavy camera body and/or you use very long lenses.

Another option is to have a solid, good quality tabletop tripod. I have a Manfrotto one which always lives in my gadget bag. This is better than nothing and always with my camera. You can even use them braced against a wall or (at a push) your shoulder.
 
Benj said:
The decision all comes down to whether you want photography as a hobby or you want to make a record of the things you see and do. Both entirely valid but perhaps requiring different equipment.
It'd definitely be as a hobby rather than just taking a record of the things I see and do.

Most of my life seems to revolve around computers; I'm either doing webdesign work, browsing the internet, keeping in touch with friends via email/im, or playing games in my free time.

I'm thinking that photography would be excellent to start up, as it will get me out of the house more, because I'll want to go to interesting places to take photographs. Then, when I am at home, I can spend less time playing games, and more time being productive editing photos.
 
andrewfee said:
This is something I had been meaning to ask about; I currently have an old portable tripod (folds down to about a foot long) but was looking to get something lighter and more stable.

Is there anything you would recommend at a low price-point? (a tripod isn't something I'd want to spend a lot on)

As someone before said, you can't skimp on the tripod. Many people overlook the tripod in their camera purchase, thinking they can pick up any cheap tripod that will do the same as the outrageously expensive ones. For most photography, this simply isn't the case. no matter how nice your camera is, how fast your lens is, or how high your ISO can go, if your tripod is weak, you can still lose images to motion blur.

Of course, this becomes more apparently with farther and farther zooms, where every tiny, unnoticeable movement in the camera corresponds to a huge shift in the image. A tripod purchase needs to be researched nearly as much as the camera itself. It all depends on what you need it for. If you want to go out in the field, perhaps in difficult terrain or in windy areas, you'll need a very sturdy tripod. If you just want to use it for indoor family shots, then something lighter will suffice.

The speed that you can use the tripod is also important. If it takes you a few minutes to set it up and get the camera pointed in the right direction, you could lose the shot. Probably the fastest tripod head that I've seen is the manfrotto ball head with joystick. Grip the joystick and move the camera in any direction you want, release it and it locks. Much easier than unscrewing one bolt to move up or down, another to move side to side, and another to tilt.

Check this out: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/tripods_&_heads.shtml
 
tossing a few pineapples

Figure I'll toss some more fruit into this salad of opinions :)


First, do you already have anything significant invested in a modern 35mm SLR?

If you do, then because dSLR's are generally backwards-compatible to their 35mm forefathers, you can leverage your existing lens investment. But do keep in mind that if your lenses aren't worth much, you shouldn't let the tail wag the dog.

Second, the current "top dog" in the dSLR marketplace is generally considered to be Canon, in no small part because of their impressive lens suite.

As such, they're a safe bet for a long-term investment that will give you room to grow (if you choose to). But...if you don't have the money for many lenses, this becomes the "if I can't afford it, does it really matter anyway?" philisophical debate: it may or may not be an item of consideration.

Third, ergonomics are NOT(not, not, not) something to be lightly disregarded. It doesn't matter if its got the greatest specs in the world if its usability quotient is low - - - and since this is a Mac website, the point here should be painfully obvious. Personally, I'm not familiar with the 350, but simply hearing someone raise the question on the possible poor suitability of its buttons raises a red flag for me to go do more research.

IMO, its more important to personally fondle and see if the controls are laid out in a way that I like and buy that camera, even if in the 14th layer of technical debate, there's a 10% difference that has a chance of showing up for 1% of my photo opportunities: you can have the best technical hardware in the world, but if its hard->impossible to use, you'll miss the shot.

Get ahold of each of your short-list candidates (with their lenses) in your hands to hold and twist the knobs and look at the indicator displays. And go find and carefully read the reviews that go beyond mere pixel counts and talk about the camera's interface even though they are subjective. The underlying problem here is that there are cameras being designed and approved by committees of non-photographers these days, and features important to photographers are occasionally forgotten.

Fourth, if you wait for the next best thing, you'll never by anything digital. Decide why "A" isn't worth buying, but "B" is worth buying, and you'll go a long ways towards understanding your own requirements that you're trying to buy to. For example, if you enjoy scenic shots that have everything in focus, you had better get a camera that has a good DOF (Depth of Field) l system - - such as a dedictated button.


Personally, I made the virgin Nikon-vs-Canon-vs-X-vs-Y decision on film a few years ago, and ended up with Canon because they had a better set of ergonomic controls (IMO), and a slight edge in lenses (which has since become more pronounced, with the advent of IS and DO lenses).

As such, since my lenses are Canon, I'll look at a Canon dSLR. Today, that's probably the 20D.

However, no SLR is complete without a lens, and in the long run, they're going to be what a photographer spends his money on. For some insight, here's what I'm currently packing:

(off-brand) 19-35mm f/3.5-4(with 1.6x digital --> 30-55mm)
Canon 50mm f/1.8 (with 1.6x digital --> 80mm)
Canon IS 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 (1.6x --> 45-215mm)
Canon IS 75-300mm f/4-5.6 (1.6x --> 120-480mm)

Except for the 50mm, each of these lenses run around $500, so adding a 20D body to the above, this is probably around $3000 worth of stuff. Don't worry too much, for you can build it up over time .

I got the 50mm is purely to continue to experiment with my Coken filters. Its diameter is backwards-compatible to my existing collection, whereas the rest of these lenses are not (they're too big in diameter). FWIW, the 50mm wasn't my first lens: an off-brand 28-200mm was, which I quickly replaced with the Canon IS 28-135mm.

The "1.6x multiplification factor" that we get from Canon's APS-sized digital sensor is pretty typical of the consumer/prosumer dSLR products. And we love how it "gives" us more telephoto, since it quickly gets expensive to get better than a 300mm at f/5.6 ... I've been looking to push out to 400mm and the basement is over a grand for the least lens, and my dream lens is the 400mm DO SI ... which lists for a bit over 5 grand.

But also notice with how what was "given" to us on telephoto was "taken away" on wide angle. Personally, the entire reason I bought that 19-35mm WA was because I found that the 28mm- was good, but not enough for what I wanted to do with it. To push a dSLR back down into the ~20mm WA range gets expensive.


Finally, because no camera is complete without a lens, you need to be thinking about what you want your first lens to be concurrent with the camera. IMO, I'd not go with a simple 50mm prime as your first & only lens...it seems to be just such a waste.



-hh
 
-hh said:
Third, ergonomics are NOT(not, not, not) something to be lightly disregarded. It doesn't matter if its got the greatest specs in the world if its usability quotient is low - - - and since this is a Mac website, the point here should be painfully obvious. Personally, I'm not familiar with the 350, but simply hearing someone raise the question on the possible poor suitability of its buttons raises a red flag for me to go do more research.

IMO, its more important to personally fondle and see if the controls are laid out in a way that I like and buy that camera, even if in the 14th layer of technical debate, there's a 10% difference that has a chance of showing up for 1% of my photo opportunities: you can have the best technical hardware in the world, but if its hard->impossible to use, you'll miss the shot.

Get ahold of each of your short-list candidates (with their lenses) in your hands to hold and twist the knobs and look at the indicator displays. And go find and carefully read the reviews that go beyond mere pixel counts and talk about the camera's interface even though they are subjective. The underlying problem here is that there are cameras being designed and approved by committees of non-photographers these days, and features important to photographers are occasionally forgotten.

This is exactly why I stress www.luminous-landscape.com so much!!! You won't find technical tests of a cameras absolute resolution on that site, but you WILL find a detailed description of how that camera handles in the field. As I've said before, Michael Reichmann (who runs LL) is more likely to complain about how the buttons on the camera are hard to use with gloves on than he is to complain about 1% difference in resolution. (it also helps that LL is almost entirely DSLR based. The only fixed lens cameras they've reviewed were the recent crop of 8MP prosumers (such as the minolta A2, sony f828, etc))


Go to www.dpreview.com for your technical questions, and www.luminous-landscape.com for your usability questions.

And finally, try them out yourself, as useability will always be a subjective view.
 
-hh said:
...
Third, ergonomics are NOT(not, not, not) something to be lightly disregarded. It doesn't matter if its got the greatest specs in the world if its usability quotient is low - - - and since this is a Mac website, the point here should be painfully obvious. Personally, I'm not familiar with the 350, but simply hearing someone raise the question on the possible poor suitability of its buttons raises a red flag for me to go do more research.

IMO, its more important to personally fondle and see if the controls are laid out in a way that I like and buy that camera, even if in the 14th layer of technical debate, there's a 10% difference that has a chance of showing up for 1% of my photo opportunities: you can have the best technical hardware in the world, but if its hard->impossible to use, you'll miss the shot.

Get ahold of each of your short-list candidates (with their lenses) in your hands to hold and twist the knobs and look at the indicator displays. And go find and carefully read the reviews that go beyond mere pixel counts and talk about the camera's interface even though they are subjective. The underlying problem here is that there are cameras being designed and approved by committees of non-photographers these days, and features important to photographers are occasionally forgotten.
...
-hh

Yes, ergonomics are a huge factor and the reason I would never choose a Canon camera for myself, esp. the Rebel (XT).

If the camera doesn't feel good and respond the way you expect, why bother spending a lot of money, especially on digital SLRs? You can get a great film scanner to go with a better than average 35mm SLR much more cheaply than a digital camera.
 
Jeromie said:
One piece of advice I'm suprised I haven't seen is the question of whether a DSLR is the right choice for all of those posting in this thread. I suppose it comes from the technophile nature of those who post here. :p While SLRs are amazing tools and really neat gadgets, they aren't the most appropriate choice for everyone. There are some amazingly versatile digital cameras with a fixed zoom lens, and the picture quality of many of them is superb. They can be a lot more convenient than an SLR too, and the best camera is always the one you have with you to get the availible shot. That's not to say you should avoid a DSLR, just consider if it's really the best tool for what you want to accomplish.

I too agree. I'm also thinking of getting a new digital camera. I like digital photography as a hobby. I was thinking of (i am still) getting a DSLR but i was thinking about it, and i don't that i'm gonig to have a million lens. It seems too adavance for me and i don't have time to fool around. I'll prob get one or two (if i'm lucky). I was thinking of going this route... http://konicaminolta.com/products/consumer/digital_camera/dimage/dimage-a200/index.html or similar.
 
-hh said:
However, no SLR is complete without a lens, and in the long run, they're going to be what a photographer spends his money on. For some insight, here's what I'm currently packing:

(off-brand) 19-35mm f/3.5-4(with 1.6x digital --> 30-55mm)
Canon 50mm f/1.8 (with 1.6x digital --> 80mm)
Canon IS 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 (1.6x --> 45-215mm)
Canon IS 75-300mm f/4-5.6 (1.6x --> 120-480mm)

But also notice with how what was "given" to us on telephoto was "taken away" on wide angle. Personally, the entire reason I bought that 19-35mm WA was because I found that the 28mm- was good, but not enough for what I wanted to do with it. To push a dSLR back down into the ~20mm WA range gets expensive.

Actually, considering what you have there, a canon 10-22 wouldn't be that much more expensive to fill in the wide side of your repertoire there. 19mm seems a bit too long for wide angle once you consider the crop factor. Yes, it's 800 bucks, but that 28-135 was 500+ too =)
 
Benj said:
Check to make sure it is not some horrible Tamron or something.

Just as with the camera manufacturers lenses, third party makers like Tamron, will have both good and bad lenses.

In fact many third party lenses may even better than the budget offerings from the camera manufacturers.
 
bousozoku said:
The 20D will be much more satisfying because it has more pixels per inch and, most likely, because the sensor is better.

In the case of the 350D and the 20D have nearly the same image size recorded, even if the PPI is lower for the 350D, that can be corrected in PS and the user will end up with closely the same results (assuming the same quality CMOS sensor).
 
Chip NoVaMac said:
Just as with the camera manufacturers lenses, third party makers like Tamron, will have both good and bad lenses.

In fact many third party lenses may even better than the budget offerings from the camera manufacturers.

Exactly...I have some Sigma glass that is simply amazing considering what I paid for it.

Tamron makes some nice glass, too.
 
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