apple's had ADC (apple display connector) for some time now. they've been moving away from VGA connections for a while. ADC carries video, power, and USB so that apple could put USB ports on displays. and there's also a more standardized DVI port that most flat panel displays use...if i'm not mistaken they carry video and power, so ADC really only adds USB.
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Low End G4 Box?
- Thread starter arn
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apple's had ADC (apple display connector) for some time now. they've been moving away from VGA connections for a while. ADC carries video, power, and USB so that apple could put USB ports on displays. and there's also a more standardized DVI port that most flat panel displays use...if i'm not mistaken they carry video and power, so ADC really only adds USB.
Leave the PC next to the mac and switch cables. Monitors take space and most desks are only equiped to hold one. One monitor and 2 PCs are more manageable then 1 PC, 1 Monitor, and a fat Monitor with computer.
Thankfully, Microsoft is removing one of the reason to buy a PC over a Mac - Games. XBox is a better game machine than a lot of PCs and easier for programmers since there is one configuration.
Actually, eMacs are poor for switchers in education. I am buying a monitor when I have a lab full of them that I can no longer use.
Also, eMacs are a pain for basic support because of the monitor built in (I do believe another poster gave a better explanation - have to lug whole unit, harder just to swap boxes).
I agree on this one, but mostly it is a Mac vs PC issue. Business will be won over in specific markets with Power Macs and best-in-breed software.
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The bottom line is Apple needs a machine that can replace the box used by a PC person so the cost of entry into the Mac market is lower. The iApps help. Apple shipping free AppleWorks (or the rumored replacement) with the new machine will help more. Letting them keep their 19" monitor (cheap at Best Buy these days) will help a lot. ~$500 and access to Apple Music service - kick butt.
They also had a propietary VGA connector before they standardized it, it was the same signal, just the connector was propietary.
Actually, if I remember correctly, the connector was one of the proposed connections for VGA, and Apple bet on it. Then the rest of the industry zigged instead of zagging and Apple got stuck with a proprietary connector. ADC is also an industry proposed connection - Apple just choose to market it as Apple Desktop Connection. Last I heard, this particular angle was also moot because Apple also shipped an ADC (or DVI not certain which) to VGA connector in the box so you could connect a VGA monitor.
I think it's silly to even imagine that Apple is going to build a $600 G4 machine that is expandable and upgradable.
If you want expandable and upgradable, with slots to poke around in, then Apple wants you to buy the lowest price PowerMac G4 machine.
Theoretically, this could maybe be the "Cube 2", which was a good idea minus the expensive price tag at the time. But the Flat Panel iMac AND the eMac are already far superior machines to their distant sibling the Cube, with monitors thrown in with both for less than the Cube (WITHOUT A MONITOR) used to sell for.
It would make far more sense for Apple to get the eMac and iMac prices lower by $200-$300 each than to spend millions on an entirely new product without a monitor in this price range.
But even if they attempt this, it's a joke to think it's going to be expandable or upgradable. It's going to be an iMac/eMac without a monitor...designed to throw away when it dies, not to be upgraded. Especially at a $599 price point.
-- Ensoniq
If you want expandable and upgradable, with slots to poke around in, then Apple wants you to buy the lowest price PowerMac G4 machine.
Theoretically, this could maybe be the "Cube 2", which was a good idea minus the expensive price tag at the time. But the Flat Panel iMac AND the eMac are already far superior machines to their distant sibling the Cube, with monitors thrown in with both for less than the Cube (WITHOUT A MONITOR) used to sell for.
It would make far more sense for Apple to get the eMac and iMac prices lower by $200-$300 each than to spend millions on an entirely new product without a monitor in this price range.
But even if they attempt this, it's a joke to think it's going to be expandable or upgradable. It's going to be an iMac/eMac without a monitor...designed to throw away when it dies, not to be upgraded. Especially at a $599 price point.
-- Ensoniq
monitors
i'm gonna give my best explination of the monitor situation (it's not all that confusing really). the old mac proprietary vga connector worked with standard vga monitors, but the port itself is not just a reworked vga... i seem to remember somone saying to me that on the mac connector there was a separate channel for one of the h syncs or v syncs and green while the industry standard put two of them into one channel (or something like that). so while old macs could use vga monitors, pc's couldn't use mac monitors. i've seen a lot of ppls upset about that cause they loved the mac displays. i tell them buy a mac, but they didn't quite bite...
the dvi (that's the port that apple ships the vga adaptor for) does not carry power. it's a digital signal to a digital display (as in lcd). you can convert this to adc or from adc to dvi via connectors that either add or subtract the power and usb, but it's not the cheapest thing in the world.
and in fact, most of the pc users i know (about half of which i would call power users) won't touch the dvi with a ten foot pole. just one of those weird things. oh well...
so to sum it all up...
you can't use older mac monitors with pc's or even with newer macs (ie if you were upgrading from old quadras or performas). but any mac ever made (with the use of a simple n cheap adaptor) can use any standard vga monitor. so really, the only switcher who gets stuck is the one who is trying to update old hardware (like i will, my beige g3 has the old prop. connector), or the old hardware user who is going pc...
matt
i'm gonna give my best explination of the monitor situation (it's not all that confusing really). the old mac proprietary vga connector worked with standard vga monitors, but the port itself is not just a reworked vga... i seem to remember somone saying to me that on the mac connector there was a separate channel for one of the h syncs or v syncs and green while the industry standard put two of them into one channel (or something like that). so while old macs could use vga monitors, pc's couldn't use mac monitors. i've seen a lot of ppls upset about that cause they loved the mac displays. i tell them buy a mac, but they didn't quite bite...
the dvi (that's the port that apple ships the vga adaptor for) does not carry power. it's a digital signal to a digital display (as in lcd). you can convert this to adc or from adc to dvi via connectors that either add or subtract the power and usb, but it's not the cheapest thing in the world.
and in fact, most of the pc users i know (about half of which i would call power users) won't touch the dvi with a ten foot pole. just one of those weird things. oh well...
so to sum it all up...
you can't use older mac monitors with pc's or even with newer macs (ie if you were upgrading from old quadras or performas). but any mac ever made (with the use of a simple n cheap adaptor) can use any standard vga monitor. so really, the only switcher who gets stuck is the one who is trying to update old hardware (like i will, my beige g3 has the old prop. connector), or the old hardware user who is going pc...
matt
i wouldn't assume that apple would want to continue working with motorola once the 970 move is complete. to build a box intended for supersaturation of the market using a chief component provided by an irresponsible provider doesn't make good sense. Could the gobi g3 work in this box?
Re: Sounds bogus to me...
A 50% margin would be phenominal. Apple generally leads the industry in margins, typically at around 20-25% IIRC.
A 50% margin would be phenominal. Apple generally leads the industry in margins, typically at around 20-25% IIRC.
Wrong.
ADC = Apple. Display. Connector.
It says it right in the photo that you posted on page 4 of this thread...
BTW, I knew this to be true even without your pic, so I would've posted this response regardless.
Re: Re: Sounds bogus to me...
Considering the strong euro and that Apple didn't lower the prices in europe so far, they must be close to 50% here meanwhile.
An example. The mid-range PowerMac costs 1,999.- US$ in the US Apple store, the same machine 2,099.- in the German Apple store. Both prices before tax.
Considering the current exchange rate, the european price equals about 2,450.- US$!!! Also considering, that Apple has a 20% margin in the US price of 1,999.- US$, the original price without margin would be around 1,600.- US$. That makes a margin of 850.- US$ on that paticular machine in europe, or about 53%!!!
And as long as this doesn't change, I won't buy a new Mac. Promised! Apple didn't hesitate to go up with the prices of their hardware, when the euro was getting very weak two years ago. But they never lowered the prices again an now they just milk the european customers to an extend that is not funny anymore...
Just my 0.02
groovebuster
Considering the strong euro and that Apple didn't lower the prices in europe so far, they must be close to 50% here meanwhile.
An example. The mid-range PowerMac costs 1,999.- US$ in the US Apple store, the same machine 2,099.- in the German Apple store. Both prices before tax.
Considering the current exchange rate, the european price equals about 2,450.- US$!!! Also considering, that Apple has a 20% margin in the US price of 1,999.- US$, the original price without margin would be around 1,600.- US$. That makes a margin of 850.- US$ on that paticular machine in europe, or about 53%!!!
And as long as this doesn't change, I won't buy a new Mac. Promised! Apple didn't hesitate to go up with the prices of their hardware, when the euro was getting very weak two years ago. But they never lowered the prices again an now they just milk the european customers to an extend that is not funny anymore...
Just my 0.02
groovebuster
970 pricing...
if that macwhispers article about the 970 being 25-30% less expensive than the G4 is accurate (could someone remind me about the historical standing of macwhispers in a 'rumorical' 'sense), then i would have to agree with them that apple will dump motorola entirely, leaving an apple line-up that has IBM 970s and G3s exclusively by next year. that would rule. here's hoping --> !
if that macwhispers article about the 970 being 25-30% less expensive than the G4 is accurate (could someone remind me about the historical standing of macwhispers in a 'rumorical' 'sense), then i would have to agree with them that apple will dump motorola entirely, leaving an apple line-up that has IBM 970s and G3s exclusively by next year. that would rule. here's hoping --> !
MacWhispers hasn't been around that long and they have only recently been embarrassed by admittedly not checking a source's credentials and unwittingly publishing a bogus rumor.
Therefore, I can't see any advantage to MW making this one up. If they are they are certain to lose all cred.
So, like many I certainly hope they are right this time, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Therefore, I can't see any advantage to MW making this one up. If they are they are certain to lose all cred.
So, like many I certainly hope they are right this time, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
A little of topic but this is not true, there are not many good games on the three consoles and the xbox has one of the worst seletions. Each console has only a few good games the rest are rubbish, and you can only get great games like Generals and Warcraft 3 on a PC (I know war3 is also on Mac). Not to mention playing doom3 on the xbox will be nowhere near as good as playing it on a PC/Mac. The main reason I dont play many games on my Mac is i can never afford a fast enough one to play games on. As soon as I get a new Mac games come out that I can not run on it.
I don't see why this can't be done for this price. The eMac currently sells for $799.
Take out the 17" monitor, and you reap large savings. Factor in the lower shipping weight, lower packaging costs for a few bucks more and you've already taken it down to $699. Next, strip out all 3rd party software, and the eMac has quite a bit of it. Sacrifice a little extra margin in exchange for volume sales, slash volume discounts, and you have it down to $599.
Think that's a bit much? How about selling it online only. Cut out the middle man. More cost savings.
There's probably more cost savings you can squeeze out of it too. I completely disagree with Macwhispers that they can't do it.
Take out the 17" monitor, and you reap large savings. Factor in the lower shipping weight, lower packaging costs for a few bucks more and you've already taken it down to $699. Next, strip out all 3rd party software, and the eMac has quite a bit of it. Sacrifice a little extra margin in exchange for volume sales, slash volume discounts, and you have it down to $599.
Think that's a bit much? How about selling it online only. Cut out the middle man. More cost savings.
There's probably more cost savings you can squeeze out of it too. I completely disagree with Macwhispers that they can't do it.
Cut them some slack, will you? They were spot on with the strange Firewire/USB2.0-Y-cable that will be available soon for PC iPod users - and noone else had ANY info about that, so it obviously was their own source.
They were very wrong about the new iPod themselves, though, but as they explained at the time, they are just in the process of seperating trustworthy sources from not-so-trustworthy ones.
As someone else mentioned it's much to early to decide how good their sources are because they haven't been around for very long and only time will tell. The METHOD they are following (trying to get info from the actual plants/manufacturers where the Apple stuff is made/assembled) is quite promising IMO.
If true, the MacWhispers rumor is great stuff - especially for Apple's possibilities of upping marketshare. And even if Apple dumps motorola, there is still the possibility of getting souped up G3:S for the really budget-oriented segment. Perhaps IBM could slap an Altivec unit on the G3:s to be used in a super-budget box like the one outlined in this thread.
The marketshare thing is what concerns me most about apple - unlike in, say, the auto business, marketshare is pretty important in the computer industry, as there are large fixed costs in software development that need to be recouped from software sales. If the potential market shrinks too much, software won't be developed / ported, and the platform dies. I think IBM will come through for Apple though - they seem to offer a viable long-term alternative in the processor department, unlike Motorola. So, on balance, I'm an optimist!
That's all the ranting for now.
/GulGnu
-Stabil som fan!
The marketshare thing is what concerns me most about apple - unlike in, say, the auto business, marketshare is pretty important in the computer industry, as there are large fixed costs in software development that need to be recouped from software sales. If the potential market shrinks too much, software won't be developed / ported, and the platform dies. I think IBM will come through for Apple though - they seem to offer a viable long-term alternative in the processor department, unlike Motorola. So, on balance, I'm an optimist!
That's all the ranting for now.
/GulGnu
-Stabil som fan!
i hear what you say gnu
i think apple's market share will not reach the levels of the late 90s anytime soon and development for the mac platform will suffer
mostly, the core base for macs should remain loyal even if apple shrinks in its market share...sure, there may eventually be fewer games and utilities, but adobe and macromedia will likely keep their graphics titles going for mac as long as there are even a few users dedicated to the platform
i can't think of any company in high tech that can operate so well outside of the mainstream and still keep their loyal following
one thing i am sad about is how the java people have not kept current with apple
i think apple's market share will not reach the levels of the late 90s anytime soon and development for the mac platform will suffer
mostly, the core base for macs should remain loyal even if apple shrinks in its market share...sure, there may eventually be fewer games and utilities, but adobe and macromedia will likely keep their graphics titles going for mac as long as there are even a few users dedicated to the platform
i can't think of any company in high tech that can operate so well outside of the mainstream and still keep their loyal following
one thing i am sad about is how the java people have not kept current with apple
Here is Steve's take on the marketshare issue (from the D: interview transcript, M = Mossberg, J = Jobs):
M: The market share for Apple has not increased dramatically; why?
J: We ask ourselves that a lot. (Audience laughs.) We serve three primary markets: consumers, education and creative professionals. The pro market has been suffering economically for the last few years, same with education. We've more than doubled our share of the consumer market, it's now between 5-10%.
M: The market share for Apple has not increased dramatically; why?
J: We ask ourselves that a lot. (Audience laughs.) We serve three primary markets: consumers, education and creative professionals. The pro market has been suffering economically for the last few years, same with education. We've more than doubled our share of the consumer market, it's now between 5-10%.
Assuming MacWhispers is right (I'm willing to cut him some slack), we could be looking at a 970 box introduced after Powermacs go over to the 980 next year. If this box is only in the development/pre-development stages, then that timeframe would be about right.
I am not that sure about the loyality. If Apple's market share slips under 1% one day, it won't be senseful anymore even for big software houses to stick with Apple. If it doesn't make sense anymore economically to support a platform on the long run, they will halt any development for it. In first place the companies have to make profits and are responsible to the stock holders. If a department is losing money and reduces profits, they will get rid of it. Even Adobe is not a charity business, although they becamne that big thanks to Apple in the old days.
Here in Germany e.g. Apple's market share is under 2% meanwhile (Apple Germany is a joke regarding marketing efforts and the Apple prizes in Europe are astronomically high). A first impression what happens then is, that a lot of software isn't localized anymore and you have to use the english version of the soaftware. You have to imagine that... just the localization is too expensive. We are not even talking about real development of software. Not everbody is fluent in english... For those people it already renders pretty hard to stay loyal.
Also it is almost impossible to find an Apple dealer near you here in Germany. In the big cities you maybe find one or two, but as soon as you are on the country-side... forget it.
I know a lot of people meanhwile who were Apple users but switched to the dark side or people who are Windows users being in love with Macs but probably never will buy one because Apple hardware is too expensive or is not performant enough.
I still hope that Apple will gain some market share again with competetive hardware, no matter if it is a "cheap" low-end system or really performant high-end system. Since years Apple is promising to gain, but actually continuosly lost market share. It doesn't matter anymore whose fault it was, if they slip under a certain critical market share (and I believe it is around 2%, before that downhill pattern starts), they will be history very soon and even the few loyal Mac fanatics won't save the day anymore. Then it is "Game Over".
So let's see what's gonna happen this year on the hardware front. In my opinon this year is the year of truth for Apple. If they don't bring very competetive and performant hardware, they are dead! If they bring that hardware and they still don't gain market share, they are dead as well. And nobody really can predict how the market will develop... except for the case that no significantly better hardware will be released.
groovebuster
Re: monitors
Find this an odd comment - since DVI connections are becoming more and more common (I just got a new Dell workstation which came standard with a Quadro4 900XGL dual DVI card).
Do you really know people with DVI-capable flat panels who prefer the analog VGA connection?
More typical in my experience is that the people who get an LCD soon replace their VGA cards with a DVI card!
Find this an odd comment - since DVI connections are becoming more and more common (I just got a new Dell workstation which came standard with a Quadro4 900XGL dual DVI card).
Do you really know people with DVI-capable flat panels who prefer the analog VGA connection?
More typical in my experience is that the people who get an LCD soon replace their VGA cards with a DVI card!
I know what you mean, Apple has the best OS but the worst hardware (in terms of tec). The whole point of the PPC was that it was meant to be faster and cheaper than the pentium (which Apple was thinking about moving to after the Moto 68xxx series cpu). I am looking to get a new laptop at the moment to replace my old Apple laptop, but I would have to spend £2000 to get anything good, while I could get a PC one for £1200 that may not look as good but is a lot faster. So I will wait to see if Apple comes out with anything good or I will have to go for a PC.
"What would you like to see from apple"
A while ago, someone started a post titled "What would you like to see from apple"...
My response was...
"i think it would be a smart move for apple to release a low end mini-tower... something for under $1000, no monitor, some room for upgrade options (doesn't need as much expandability as the powermacs). maybe have a lineup of ibooks and powerbooks...then imacs, itower , and powermacs... if this was to happen, it would be nice to see some sort of apple-made monitor for under $699..."
I think it would be great for apple to offer a g4 mini tower (itower) of some sort with maybe a reasonbly priced optional monitor.
Until I find a decent paying job, I just can't afford a new mac. So for me, this would be an upgrade from what I'm currently using at a price I would currently be able to afford!
A while ago, someone started a post titled "What would you like to see from apple"...
My response was...
"i think it would be a smart move for apple to release a low end mini-tower... something for under $1000, no monitor, some room for upgrade options (doesn't need as much expandability as the powermacs). maybe have a lineup of ibooks and powerbooks...then imacs, itower , and powermacs... if this was to happen, it would be nice to see some sort of apple-made monitor for under $699..."
I think it would be great for apple to offer a g4 mini tower (itower) of some sort with maybe a reasonbly priced optional monitor.
Until I find a decent paying job, I just can't afford a new mac. So for me, this would be an upgrade from what I'm currently using at a price I would currently be able to afford!