M1 Ultra Mac Studio is 2 Pounds Heavier Than M1 Max Version Due to Thermal Differences

[Matrix1776]

Imagine a water-cooled M1 Ultra. Dream with me.

You're having some intense dreams there, should probably see a doctor As long as the cooling is great at proper sound levels, there is no reason to integrate water cooling. My PC is liquid pipes with my 3090, but that's a different beast. This is also 1/10th the weight of that tower.

I think what Apple has here is special, and am considering it to make my PC gaming-only. Is that worth a $4K investment, well the GPU alone was priced that just last year. Plus my work equipment and monitors and my home office is really heating up (quite literally).

 

[supercoolmanchu]

I doubt it has anything to do with cooling, and more with ensuring sufficient yields of whatever chip will power the Mac Pro. Maybe the technical challenge of stitching 4 M1 max chips as well, but I don’t see any other constraints now that Apple is evidently under no compunction to keep their Macs as small and thin as possible.

I think the debate is centered around whether to change the existing case. Making the chassis larger alleviates the space concerns, but increases shipping size and potentially weigh along with shipping costs. Also a bulkier and costlier case, would likely result in increased costs and difficulty to maintain its design splendor, which would be a noticeable step down in perceived value for many with Apple's typical premium markup.

It seems like Apple already designed the M1 to scale, hence the Ultra, and seems to be able to produce yields in a more consumer priced Mac Studio volume. The more premium priced Mac Pros would require less yields than what they are doing now.

So no I disagree, all signs point to cooling issues.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

Because any memory you can buy that goes into a slot is MUCH slower than this unified memory. SIGNIFICANTLY slower.

The ultra has memory bandwidth of 800GBps. That is MUCH FASTER than anything you can stick into 8 slots of memory. Notice the capital B.

The fact you don’t understand that means I don’t want to talk to you.

Tell me you digest marketing without chewing, without telling me you digest marketing without chewing.

中国工程师破解M1处理器MacBook，成功扩容16G内存、1TB硬盘 - 充电头网 - 我们只谈充电

苹果在2020年的秋季发布会推出了iPhone 12系列新机

www.chongdiantou.com

"Memory that you can buy" Since Apple silicon has everything soldered on chip, this is a disingenuous. The solder isn't magic, has nothing to do with performance, the only technical reason you can't upgrade the M1 memory is because Apple doesn't want you to.

 

[elmateo487]

Tell me you digest marketing without chewing, without telling me you digest marketing without chewing.

中国工程师破解M1处理器MacBook，成功扩容16G内存、1TB硬盘 - 充电头网 - 我们只谈充电

苹果在2020年的秋季发布会推出了iPhone 12系列新机

www.chongdiantou.com

"Memory that you can buy" Since Apple silicon has everything soldered on chip, this is a disingenuous. The solder isn't magic, has nothing to do with performance, the only technical reason you can't upgrade the M1 memory is because Apple doesn't want you to.

Wrong. THERE IS NO MEMORY ON THE MARKET YOU CAN BUY THAT IS THIS FAST. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

clear enough for you?

This is a fact. It’s not my fault you don’t have enough knowledge about it.

And the “solder” IS the magic. Even AMD does the same thing with Fabric. Not having slots, and having the memory chips directly part of the main chip means they can have faster transfer mechanisms.

Let me simplify it for you. There is no solder, the memory being part of the chip IS what makes it fast. So you are very wrong.

 

[cmaier]

Wrong. THERE IS NO MEMORY ON THE MARKET YOU CAN BUY THAT IS THIS FAST. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

clear enough for you?

This is a fact. It’s not my fault you don’t have enough knowledge about it.

And the “solder” IS the magic. Even AMD does the same thing with Fabric. Not having slots, and having the memory chips directly part of the main chip means they can have faster transfer mechanisms.

Let me simplify it for you. There is no solder, the memory being part of the chip IS what makes it fast. So you are very wrong.

Every mm of additional distance between memory and the CPU adds approximately 6ps to the latency.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

Wrong. THERE IS NO MEMORY ON THE MARKET YOU CAN BUY THAT IS THIS FAST. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

clear enough for you?

This is a fact. It’s not my fault you don’t have enough knowledge about it.

And the “solder” IS the magic. Even AMD does the same thing with Fabric. Not having slots, and having the memory chips directly part of the main chip means they can have faster transfer mechanisms.

Let me simplify it for you. There is no solder, the memory being part of the chip IS what makes it fast. So you are very wrong.

Totally wrong again.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/06/m1-mac-ram-and-ssd-upgrades-possible/

“As proof, a large number of images showing the process of a base model M1 MacBook Air with 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage being upgraded to 16GB of RAM and 1TB of storage, and this change being correctly shown in macOS Big Sur, have been shared online.

The RAM and SSD components on Apple's M1 Macs are soldered in place, making the procedure extremely challenging, and there is reportedly a high chance of failure. This invasive unofficial upgrade also undoubtedly breaches Apple's warranty.”

So Apple M1 chip’s “unified memory” are just “soldered in” memory modules.

I’m not sure this idea of 3rd parties not rushing to provide memory upgrades for something Apple needlessly “soldered in"... is as much of an argument against expandability, as you might think it is. Doesn’t the entire 3rd party memory industry exist solely for providing memory modules? Who do you think makes/subcontracted to provide Apple's memory? What is stopping Apple from selling upgrades themselves?

But thank you for helping refine my original post/statement that lack of expandability was my biggest disappointment of the Mac Studio. Again, it sucks that Apple deliberately “soldered in” both the hard drive and memory.

Summing up: I humbly present this lesson as a consolation prize, and hope it serves you as a learning experience regarding blind faith in brands and literal interpretations of marketing speak.

 

[cmaier]

Totally wrong again.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/06/m1-mac-ram-and-ssd-upgrades-possible/

“As proof, a large number of images showing the process of a base model M1 MacBook Air with 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage being upgraded to 16GB of RAM and 1TB of storage, and this change being correctly shown in macOS Big Sur, have been shared online.

The RAM and SSD components on Apple's M1 Macs are soldered in place, making the procedure extremely challenging, and there is reportedly a high chance of failure. This invasive unofficial upgrade also undoubtedly breaches Apple's warranty.”

So Apple M1 chip’s “unified memory” are just “soldered in” memory modules.

I’m not sure this idea of 3rd parties not rushing to provide memory upgrades for something Apple needlessly “soldered in"... is as much of an argument against expandability, as you might think it is. Doesn’t the entire 3rd party memory industry exist solely for providing memory modules? Who do you think makes/subcontracted to provide Apple's memory? What is stopping Apple from selling upgrades themselves?

But thank you for helping refine my original post/statement that lack of expandability was my biggest disappointment of the Mac Studio. Again, it sucks that Apple deliberately “soldered in” both the hard drive and memory.

Summing up: I humbly present this lesson as a consolation prize, and hope it serves you as a learning experience regarding blind faith in brands and literal interpretations of marketing speak.

To be clear, the memory is soldered inside the SOC. It can’t be removed without taking the processor package apart. And it’s not soldered the same way you would solder to a PCB.

 

[George Dawes]

I cant see why weight is an issue if you put it on a desktop ?

If it was portable I could understand

 

[PkennethV]

To be clear, the memory is soldered inside the SOC. It can’t be removed without taking the processor package apart. And it’s not soldered the same way you would solder to a PCB.

This.

Soldering itself doesn't magically increase the speed of RAM.

But having the memory be on board the SOC (which happens to require soldering), rather than a discrete module (where you have the option of soldering or socketing) is what gives the performance increase we see with M1 & all its variants.

The fact that RAM is soldered with the new Apple Silicon Macs is a by product of integrating the RAM into the SOC; there isn't a practical way to do it without soldering. This is unlike back almost 10 years ago when Apple started soldering RAM in MacBooks. In that case, there was no performance benefit because soldering itself does not increase performance; Apple only soldered the RAM without actually moving the RAM physically closer to the CPU.


Also, as another post said on the previous page, the performance gains of having the memory on board the SOC has more to do with reducing latency, rather than increasing bandwidth. It is true that every mm of trace length has an impactful difference in latency. It's not as simply as "I would be willing to wait 25 nanoseconds longer for a task to complete if it means I can upgrade my socketed memory myself" - it's not so much about reducing "human perceived wait times", it has to do with those nanoseconds in timing that are not meaningful to human perception actually causing problems with microprocessors not being able to work properly at all / producing errors / crashes.

I know a lot of "Mac people" don't really value what goes on in the PC world, because "PCs suck", or something, but even if you look at "overclocking competition motherboards", the designers of those boards really go out of their way to place those socketed RAM sockets as physically close to the CPU socket as possible, often to the detriment of other practical factors (like wide aftermarket CPU cooler compatibly, or case clearance), because in a competition setting where getting the absolute best performance is what matters (and those motherboards are often not even in a case anyways), every mm of physical distance makes a difference.

Now with the M1 & its variants, we are not merely talking about moving the RAM closer to the CPU, we are putting the RAM on the same CHIP as the CPU, and that HUGELY reduces latency. It also increase power efficiency.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

This is unlike back almost 10 years ago when Apple started soldering RAM in MacBooks. In that case, there was no performance benefit because soldering itself does not increase performance; in this case, Apple only soldered the RAM without actually moving the RAM physically closer to the CPU.

From iFixit:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Retina+Display+Mid+2012+Teardown/9462
MacBook 15” from 10 years ago. The RAM is physically close to the CPU

 

[PkennethV]

From iFixit:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Retina+Display+Mid+2012+Teardown/9462
MacBook 15” from 10 years ago. The RAM is physically close to the CPU
View attachment 1973481

Credit to you; I was wrong about them not moving the memory closer to the CPU when making the switch from socketed to soldered

They didn't take advantage of the fact that the shorter trace distances would allow for higher speeds though, as both the Retina model you linked to as well as the non-Retina version (with the older motherboard design which had socketed RAM further away from the CPU) are both running their memory at DDR3 1600MHz speeds
(https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Retina+Display+Mid+2012+Teardown/9462)

So to the end user, no performance benefit to them having moved the memory closer with the tradeoff of having the memory soldered in this particular transition/generation (unlike how they properly took advantage of the even closer distance with M1 to actually increase RAM speed).

They did switch from DDR3 to DDR3L going from the "Unibody" form factor to the "Retina" form factor, so that helps save some power (same speed) though it's possible to socket DDR3L, so that wouldn't justify the move to soldering.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

To be clear, the memory is soldered inside the SOC. It can’t be removed without taking the processor package apart. And it’s not soldered the same way you would solder to a PCB.

And to be clear, rather than to continue to obfuscate the point… there’s no performance benefit here.

It’s a decision by Apple to not make their systems upgradable, which is their right to do, but lying about it… is a much bigger problem.

 

[cmaier]

And to be clear, rather than to continue to obfuscate the point… there’s no performance benefit here.

It’s a decision by Apple to not make their systems upgradable, which is their right to do, but lying about it… is a much bigger problem.

Not sure what you mean. There’s definitely a performance benefit, though the amount of the benefit may not be worth it if you need upgradeable memory.

Depending on the exact substrate, each millimeter farther away that you put the memory takes 6 or 7 picoseconds of flight time - that adds to the memory access latency. Additionally, memory slots, themselves, have much higher load impedence than the memory soldered in the CPU package. This would add quite a bit to the rise/fall times for the memory signals, which has two effects. First, it again increases latency. Second, it means you need to overcome the load by increasing the power supplied to the memory I/O drivers. That costs efficiency.

 

[elmateo487]

Totally wrong again.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/06/m1-mac-ram-and-ssd-upgrades-possible/

“As proof, a large number of images showing the process of a base model M1 MacBook Air with 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage being upgraded to 16GB of RAM and 1TB of storage, and this change being correctly shown in macOS Big Sur, have been shared online.

The RAM and SSD components on Apple's M1 Macs are soldered in place, making the procedure extremely challenging, and there is reportedly a high chance of failure. This invasive unofficial upgrade also undoubtedly breaches Apple's warranty.”

So Apple M1 chip’s “unified memory” are just “soldered in” memory modules.

I’m not sure this idea of 3rd parties not rushing to provide memory upgrades for something Apple needlessly “soldered in"... is as much of an argument against expandability, as you might think it is. Doesn’t the entire 3rd party memory industry exist solely for providing memory modules? Who do you think makes/subcontracted to provide Apple's memory? What is stopping Apple from selling upgrades themselves?

But thank you for helping refine my original post/statement that lack of expandability was my biggest disappointment of the Mac Studio. Again, it sucks that Apple deliberately “soldered in” both the hard drive and memory.

Summing up: I humbly present this lesson as a consolation prize, and hope it serves you as a learning experience regarding blind faith in brands and literal interpretations of marketing speak.

Wait. What did you expect SOC ram and SSDs to look like and how they would be attached? They have to make chip modules and attach them together… and this is how you do it to have the ram be fast and closely attached to the processor for latency.

What in the world? Are you saying apple should sell you those chips? And you should be able to solder them on yourself after opening up the SOC?

Or are you saying apple should use normal slow ram with a socketed board… and entirely move away from SOC. In short. Become Intel.

Just give up. You are wrong here and there isn’t a way you could spin it that makes sense.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

To be clear, the memory is soldered inside the SOC. It can’t be removed without taking the processor package apart. And it’s not soldered the same way you would solder to a PCB.

The SOC terminology is a bit disingenuous.

M1s have the memory and drive modules soldered on the top of the main CPU board, then sandwiched under a thermal cover. These are distinct electrical components fabricated separately, then "permanently" attached with solder later.

Apple clearly did this so they can offer different configurations without having to fabricate distinct, more complicated and costly SOC for each M1 Max and Ultra memory and drive configuration.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

Not sure what you mean. There’s definitely a performance benefit, though the amount of the benefit may not be worth it if you need upgradeable memory.

Depending on the exact substrate, each millimeter farther away that you put the memory takes 6 or 7 picoseconds of flight time - that adds to the memory access latency. Additionally, memory slots, themselves, have much higher load impedence than the memory soldered in the CPU package. This would add quite a bit to the rise/fall times for the memory signals, which has two effects. First, it again increases latency. Second, it means you need to overcome the load by increasing the power supplied to the memory I/O drivers. That costs efficiency.

The memory and CPU board both have connections, all they need to do is maintain contact to function.

The solder is only serving two purposes, to keep the components in place from movement and to improve thermal transfer a bit for cooling.

Clearly they wouldn't want components coming loose inside the case, but there aren't mechanical solutions that could maintain electrical component connections? Apple has no aversion to glue, so clearly they've thought of at least one for keeping components in place (albeit quick and dirty).

However it is a lot cheaper to manufacture the way they've done it here (penny pinching) and adds a not inconsequential degree of planned obsolescence (penny pinching).

 

[supercoolmanchu]

Wait. What did you expect SOC ram and SSDs to look like and how they would be attached? They have to make chip modules and attach them together… and this is how you do it to have the ram be fast and closely attached to the processor for latency.

What in the world? Are you saying apple should sell you those chips? And you should be able to solder them on yourself after opening up the SOC?

Or are you saying apple should use normal slow ram with a socketed board… and entirely move away from SOC. In short. Become Intel.

Just give up. You are wrong here and there isn’t a way you could spin it that makes sense.

Says the “there is no solder connecting the M1 memory” guy.

People have been upgrading iPhone / iPad memory with off the shelf NAND for several years now. Apple makes it difficult only because of superfluous business and manufacturing cost reasons, not performance. Apple has also made and sold various after market upgrades before.

The M1 is an ARM CPU, many people make these and the associated memory component types. Even if Apple makes a brand new memory layout, the basic architecture of this tech is already in wide manufacture. Retailers like OWC would sell M1 memory and drive upgrades in a hot minute, if they weren’t soldered in, even if they had engineer (or subcontract) their own physical modules with off the shelf internal memory components to do so. It's happened before for previously new and unique hardware.

But I can see you are very excited about the Mac Studio and its capabilities. As a shareholder, I would advise you since availability is very limited, to go and place your order ASAP. I don’t agree with your blind faith to all "marketing" logic, even to AAPL’s impressively styled presentations, but if you insist… it just helps my bottom line. So pretty please, with sugar on top, go ahead and fully max that sucker out too, since like you said, you can’t buy any upgrades for it later. Enjoy!

 

[elmateo487]

Says the “there is no solder connecting the M1 memory” guy.

People have been upgrading iPhone / iPad memory with off the shelf NAND for several years now. Apple makes it difficult only because of superfluous business and manufacturing cost reasons, not performance. Apple has also made and sold various after market upgrades before.

The M1 is an ARM CPU, many people make these and the associated memory component types. Even if Apple makes a brand new memory layout, the basic architecture of this tech is already in wide manufacture. Retailers like OWC would sell M1 memory and drive upgrades in a hot minute, if they weren’t soldered in, even if they had engineer (or subcontract) their own physical modules with off the shelf internal memory components to do so. It's happened before for previously new and unique hardware.

But I can see you are very excited about the Mac Studio and its capabilities. As a shareholder, I would advise you since availability is very limited, to go and place your order ASAP. I don’t agree with your blind faith to all "marketing" logic, even to AAPL’s impressively styled presentations, but if you insist… it just helps my bottom line. So pretty please, with sugar on top, go ahead and fully max that sucker out too, since like you said, you can’t buy any upgrades for it later. Enjoy!

So you are in denial about Apple’s memory performance numbers. Even though you can see the numbers right before your eyes in the real world.

And you think…. Apple could just slap some memory connectors into their SOC…. AND you think there are others who are doing this already?

lol

 

[cmaier]

The memory and CPU board both have connections, all they need to do is maintain contact to function.

The solder is only serving two purposes, to keep the components in place from movement and to improve thermal transfer a bit for cooling.

Clearly they wouldn't want components coming loose inside the case, but there aren't mechanical solutions that could maintain electrical component connections? Apple has no aversion to glue, so clearly they've thought of at least one for keeping components in place (albeit quick and dirty).

However it is a lot cheaper to manufacture the way they've done it here (penny pinching) and adds a not inconsequential degree of planned obsolescence (penny pinching).

You are proposing that they glue the memory inside the SOC package instead of soldering it? That’s insane. The solder serves the additional purpose of maintaining electrical connectivity. It’s conductive. It has a thermal expansion coefficient that matches the contacts, to handle thermal cycling. It has a Fermi work function that matches the contacts so as to form an ohmic contact and to prevent parasitic diodes. And there are a thousand tiny pins that have to align perfectly.

You cannot “glue” it.

And soldering is a hell of a lot more expensive than glue, so your premise that this is about cost saving is also nuts.

 

[chucker23n1]

The M1 is an ARM CPU, many people make these

Apple’s ARM chips since the A6 are a custom design that’s unrelated to ARM Cortex. They’re still compatible with the ARM ISA, but it’s not correct to say that “many people make these”. You can’t get an ARM part off the shelf that has a similar design to the M1.

 

[tripleburst]

So...will the Mac Studio with the M1 Max be in "High Power" mode as a default since it no longer has to save battery and with a better thermal solution?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The solder is only serving two purposes, to keep the components in place from movement and to improve thermal transfer a bit for cooling.

THREE purposes. It also lowers the rise/fall times for the memory signals which reduces latency. And, as a result, increases performance.

 

[cmaier]

THREE purposes. It also lowers the rise/fall times for the memory signals which reduces latency. And, as a result, increases performance.

It also provides an electrically conductive path (purpose 4). And by coating the two contacts it prevents oxidation of those contacts (purpose 5). For unidirectional pins, it provides a reservoir of metal to compensate for electromigration. (Purpose 6).

Etc. etc.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

You are proposing that they glue the memory inside the SOC package instead of soldering it? That’s insane. The solder serves the additional purpose of maintaining electrical connectivity. It’s conductive. It has a thermal expansion coefficient that matches the contacts, to handle thermal cycling. It has a Fermi work function that matches the contacts so as to form an ohmic contact and to prevent parasitic diodes. And there are a thousand tiny pins that have to align perfectly.

You cannot “glue” it.

And soldering is a hell of a lot more expensive than glue, so your premise that this is about cost saving is also nuts.

No. I would think a modified method for clamping it down (which is essentially what they’ve already done).

There’s already a thermal cover, instead of “glueing” that on, put a release on it. Any metal used for securing the release will also act as further thermal transfer material.

If using screws, those could be sunk into something else inside the case to further increase thermal transfer. Maybe even eliminate some of the “glue” aka thermal paste already present in the chip.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

So you are in denial about Apple’s memory performance numbers. Even though you can see the numbers right before your eyes in the real world.

And you think…. Apple could just slap some memory connectors into their SOC…. AND you think there are others who are doing this already?

lol

I never said anything about Apple’s memory numbers.

Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?

Have you ordered a Mac Studio yet?