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M3 to M4 vs M4 to M5
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edubfromktown
macrumors 65816
I have M1 Max Studio (32GB/512GB) and Pro M3 14" MBP (18 GB/1TB). Both do far more than I'll need for the next 3+ years (based on what Activity Monitor reports in terms of CPU utilization and memory pressure).
No need, desire or motivation to upgrade at this point for my use cases.
No need, desire or motivation to upgrade at this point for my use cases.
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
If rumors are true, we'll be seeing the M6 processor later this year and while we've been under this annual cadence regarding apple silicon, it feels like the M5 is more of a place holder then anything else - maybe that's unfair but in about 6 months we may very well be getting M6 MBPs. Rumors are fairly vocal about the M6 being produced with a new tsmc process node, the MBPs will be using OLED and seeing other significant updates.
I'm not down on the M5, I would love to buy a M5 Max (or ultra if I hit powerball), but the truth is, my M4 Max is more then enough for me.
I'm not down on the M5, I would love to buy a M5 Max (or ultra if I hit powerball), but the truth is, my M4 Max is more then enough for me.
To expand on @DrWojtek's answer: it depends on if your focus is CPU or GPU. The M3 and M5 GPUs were massive uplifts in capabilities and design changes relative to their predecessors. The M3 CPU was a big upgrade over the M2, but skipped an iPhone CPU core design. The M4 GPU was a spec bump on the M3, but the CPU was quite a nice improvement YoY. The M5's CPU was an okay improvement over the M4's, but less than the M4's over the M3's. Thus, it appears that Apple has been alternating the "big jumps" for CPU and GPU every year, but whether that's actually true and a deliberate strategy or will remain true, who knows? I would say the GPU jumps have been more significant in terms of features and "future proofing", but that depends on what you want both now and in the future.
In terms of the future, both near and slightly further out: it's possible the M5 Pro and Max will have new packaging techniques, but it is unclear what, if anything, that will bring to the user in capabilities. The M6 will likely be on a TSMC new node, N2, that is supposed to be a much bigger jump from N3 than N3 was to N5. We'll just have to wait and see what Apple does with that for the CPU/GPU/both.
In terms of the future, both near and slightly further out: it's possible the M5 Pro and Max will have new packaging techniques, but it is unclear what, if anything, that will bring to the user in capabilities. The M6 will likely be on a TSMC new node, N2, that is supposed to be a much bigger jump from N3 than N3 was to N5. We'll just have to wait and see what Apple does with that for the CPU/GPU/both.
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chars1ub0w
macrumors 6502a
It all depends on what functions you use.
For example, I can use CPU cores on my own code (multi-threaded with some communication).
For example, I have a graph algorithm that naturally divides into 6 and 24 threads.
But 24 threads is too many for the M1 Max.
Have a M1 Max (8P+2E). 6 threads is good. I observe a 5x speedup (over single-threaded).
(I have a M3 too, probably slower than the M1 Max.)
Since then we've had the following releases:
M5 (4+6) cores
M2 Max (8+4) cores
M3 Max (12+4) cores
M4 Max (12+4) cores
M1 Ultra (16+4) cores
M2 Ultra (16+4) cores
M3 Ultra (24+8) cores <-- 24 threads
So for me the next significant bump would be a M3 Ultra.
Maybe I'd get a 20x speedup. A big game-changer.
For example, I can use CPU cores on my own code (multi-threaded with some communication).
For example, I have a graph algorithm that naturally divides into 6 and 24 threads.
But 24 threads is too many for the M1 Max.
Have a M1 Max (8P+2E). 6 threads is good. I observe a 5x speedup (over single-threaded).
(I have a M3 too, probably slower than the M1 Max.)
Since then we've had the following releases:
M5 (4+6) cores
M2 Max (8+4) cores
M3 Max (12+4) cores
M4 Max (12+4) cores
M1 Ultra (16+4) cores
M2 Ultra (16+4) cores
M3 Ultra (24+8) cores <-- 24 threads
So for me the next significant bump would be a M3 Ultra.
Maybe I'd get a 20x speedup. A big game-changer.
In such general terms, M3 > M4 > M5 were just steady jumps in performance with minimal changes to computer design. M6 is likely to be a more significant upgrade (new TSMC design/generation) and rumoured to have significant changes to Mac design (for at least the MacBook Pro).
Future proofing: As usual Apple has nothing about when any Apple silicon Macs will become unsupported by macOS. Past history with Intel Macs may not be a good guide because Apple has much more control over the chip design and, if it wants, could more easily continue software support Mx Macs for longer.
tenthousandthings
Contributor
I’m not sure the M3 skipped anything—the A16 and the M3 families share the same CPU and GPU platforms (H15P/G/S/M/C/D and G15P/G/S). The A17 and the M4 families share the next generation of that (H16~ and G16~), and A18 and M5 share the one after that (H17~ and G17~), and so on (it is confirmed/published that A19 Pro = H18P and G18P). [The easiest-access source is Ilikeiphone123 but since they don't explain anything and they just assume you know what they're doing, if you're looking for more information about what these are and how to find them, I'd start with Asahi Linux, even better, the work on CPU architectures by Chen Jiajie at Tsinghua University: main (see CPU Microarchitecture Diagrams) and apple-pmu (see the README).]
So the A18 Pro macOS edu/home product that will launch tomorrow (?) alongside the M5 MacBook Air makes perfect sense. They are the same generation/family of CPU and GPU. Mac17,1 sits naturally beside Mac17,2 (the M5 MacBook Pro) -- I'm preparing a WikiPost about the product-identifier generations, but waiting for the M5 Pro/Max to launch -- I see no point in contorting everything around those unknowns, best to wait until we know what's up. I won't wait for the M5 Ultra, though.
Maybe today in a few minutes (or tomorrow) we will know a bit more about M5 Pro/Max?! Otherwise June, and my expectations for some kind of major change will skyrocket...
M4 Max Up to 16-core CPU with 12 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores
M5 Max 18 SUPER CORE
wtf is that , beyond marketing? maybe they did some core/architecture changes ?!
M5 Max 18 SUPER CORE
wtf is that , beyond marketing? maybe they did some core/architecture changes ?!
tenthousandthings
Contributor
It is SoIC -- they call it "SoC" in the press release because that is deemed too technical, for the same reason they didn't call UltraFusion "Integrated Fan-Out with Local Silicon Interconnect (InFO-LSI)" ... But, make no mistake, the new "Fusion Architecture" is IC (integrated chips). This is exactly what was rumored.
so same core as the M4 max just more? thats your take? or maybe i didnt understood
i mean why they called until now 16-core performance and now with just m5 max they called them super cores ?
the term super is just for marketing or is something down to its core different and improved regarding the cpu core?
i mean why they called until now 16-core performance and now with just m5 max they called them super cores ?
the term super is just for marketing or is something down to its core different and improved regarding the cpu core?
From apple statement: "It includes six of the highest-performing core design, now called super cores, that are the world’s fastest CPU core"
So these super cores performing are better than the performing cores from the M5 ?! Maybe higher clock speed?
What do you think it is @leman
So these super cores performing are better than the performing cores from the M5 ?! Maybe higher clock speed?
What do you think it is @leman
The Fusion Architecture is a first for Apple silicon, since previous chips used a single-die design. The two bonded dies house the CPU, GPU, Media Engine, Neural Engine, unified memory controller, and Thunderbolt 5 capabilities together.
tenthousandthings
Contributor
No, it's the next-generation core design, after the M4 family -- but the CPU and GPU are on separate dies. I think the usage of "Super" here means integrated chips (IC). Reading the press release literally ["integrating the world’s fastest CPU cores, a next-generation GPU with Neural Accelerators, a faster Neural Engine, and high-bandwidth, high-capacity memory"], it looks like the ANE might also be on a separate die?
We need these asap
I wonder if this way the 14'" Mbp can handle more from the Max variant
Also...this mean we can see an Ultra or that is for the M6 family
I think these will work nice also into the Mac mini M5/M5 Pro and Mac studio M5 Max but also M5 ultra...since i guess ultra is from 2 to 2 generations..so we didnt had M4 ultra...now its time
I wonder if this way the 14'" Mbp can handle more from the Max variant
Also...this mean we can see an Ultra or that is for the M6 family
I think these will work nice also into the Mac mini M5/M5 Pro and Mac studio M5 Max but also M5 ultra...since i guess ultra is from 2 to 2 generations..so we didnt had M4 ultra...now its time
tenthousandthings
Contributor
Unfortunately, it looks like we will have to wait until June for the M5 Mac mini and Mac Studio. This was expected, but still I was hoping that they'd launch it all today. No way they step on the new A18 Pro edu/home product launch tomorrow.
Perhaps I'll be wrong!
Explains a lot about the new cores etc:
It seems the greatest increase this gen is actually ray tracing (+35% vs M4 gen). The other stuff is around 20% better (GPU and multi-core CPU performance).
Seems like groundwork laid for M6 gen.
Apple debuts M5 Pro and M5 Max to supercharge the most demanding pro workflows
Apple today announced M5 Pro and M5 Max, the world’s most advanced chips for pro laptops, powering the new MacBook Pro.
www.apple.com
It seems the greatest increase this gen is actually ray tracing (+35% vs M4 gen). The other stuff is around 20% better (GPU and multi-core CPU performance).
Seems like groundwork laid for M6 gen.
supports MIE on all new macs with M5 family but the upcoming Macbook Neo that it seems it will run A18 and not A19
In these days , for me is significant and i dont expect the M6 to be more than 20% better than m5Explains a lot about the new cores etc:
Apple debuts M5 Pro and M5 Max to supercharge the most demanding pro workflows
Apple today announced M5 Pro and M5 Max, the world’s most advanced chips for pro laptops, powering the new MacBook Pro.www.apple.com
It seems the greatest increase this gen is actually ray tracing (+35% vs M4 gen). The other stuff is around 20% better (GPU and multi-core CPU performance).
Seems like groundwork laid for M6 gen.
20% on the same nr of gpu cores is well received
tenthousandthings
Contributor
See my post #9 in response to @crazy dave -- A18 is same family as M5. A19 is next-generation, beyond M5. Is "Neo" what they are calling it!?
“Memory Integrity Enforcement (MIE), is a comprehensive memory safety defense for Apple platforms available on A19 and M5 processors or later.”
From their apple support page
But we will see tomorrow on the macbook neo if it does come with a18
I would say that as of the information dropped today the M5 generation is officially the bigger change no matter how you cut, CPU or GPU 😉
From what I can gather, the "super cores" are the same as performance cores from the M5 but the new "performance" cores are something new, probably similar in design philosophy to Intel's E-cores and I think the direction Qualcomm is taking with L and M cores if memory serves - i.e. they're a middle core.
I know the chip names, however it's not clear that platforms and the cores are the same - for instance the M5 GPU cores are definitely the same as the A19's and not the A18s - the latter did not have neural cores or the new Dynamic cache 2.0. Same with the M3 GPU cores which had ray tracing and Dynamic Cache same as the A17, but not the A16. That said, it is less clear if the CPU has the same pattern, but the average SPEC IPC increase appears to be similar M4 to M5 as A18 to A19 according to Geekerwan and I believe they did architectural comparisons between A-series and M-series previously and found the core designs match for the same release year but I'd have to double check. Chen Jiajie stopped doing A-series architectures at A16 and he has separate entries for everything after the M2.
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