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From the people I know, they all transitioned to Linux
What types of work do they do, and what software do they use?

As you know, a lot of the MP market consists of A/V/design pros and, as I understand it (I'm not one myself), they use things like Avid Pro Tools, DaVinci Resolve, Topaz Photo and Video AI, Autocad, and various Adobe, KOMPLETE, and iZOTOPE products, none of which are available for Linux. Not to mention those that use Mac-specific products.

So I'd be surprised that much of that group transitioned to Linux; they would instead go to Windows.

[While Maxon's Cinema 4D is available for Linux, there's no GUI--it's command-line rendering only. PreSonus Studio One is available for Linux, but only as a public beta.]
 
An all-new Apple Silicon Mac Pro would necessitate a price point that is out of reach even for most creative professionals.

*Professional-grade PCIe 4.0 expansion boxes aren't cheap. Two of these would hold just as many PCIe cards as the MP (not including the MP's I/O card) (two full-length plus four half-length), and they're $1,200 each, for a total of $2,400:
Interesting. There's so much interest/debate/disparagement regarding the Mac Pro in a thread on the rumor of an allegedly upcoming Mac Studio generation that clearly there's a lot of interest, despite fatalism about the prospects of new Mac Pros as good options for many of us.

From that I infer a lot of people would like a Mac Studio-based mini-power extra drive bay expansion slots, such as, oh, could be used to do something like this:

1.) Put in a big 3rd party SSD to escape Apple's obscene mark up (or so I deem it) while getting those 6 - 7,000 Mbps speeds, rather than the slower speeds, external enclosures and Thunderbolt cables (and desk clutter) required now.
2.) Put in a pair of HDDs to use as a RAID backup (mirroring) internally.
3.) One more bay in case somebody needs an optical drive or something?

After all, cheap RAM expansion was knocked out by the SOC approach and from this thread add-on GPUs aren't supported.

Thunderbolt 5 is about to come out. Will it level the playing field between internal and external SSD storage?

If an accessory maker wanted to make a 4-bay Thunderbolt 5 attached mini-tower add-on with 4 drive bays for the Mac Studio, and let's say maybe even the option for 2 Thunderbolt 5 connections, at what price point could a non-price gouging accessory maker offer this, how close would it come to Mac internal storage speeds, and to what extent would it satisfy the desires of many users interested in the Mac Pro?

Maybe OWC or Satechi or similar are listening. How many of you would buy this?
 
If they introduce the M4 this year why bother with an M3 mini? Go with an all-M4 mini lineup.
 
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Hopefully it means they the Mac Pro will actually get a valid update.

The whole apple silicon timescale is a bit weird I think. Because the chips are staggered the Max then performs similarly to the Ultra and then you get a portable laptop thats as quick as a desktop like the Mac Pro.

The thought process just doesn't make sense to me and the 6 month gaps. It's hard to rely on too like this year they have swapped it round - pro machines first. Although they were only 9 months old and annoying owners of m2 buyers. Then the MacBook Air is going to be 18 months old by the time its updated, probably dragging it out because of the 15".

They should lean on an 18 month time scale and get all out at once to stop these games of uptake on the m3 being better than the m2 pro, m3 max silmiar to the m2 ultra so they get the uptake sales.

It makes the higher end purchases even more pointless because the Max to ultra gains are silly. I would be really p*ssed if id bought an M2 Mac Pro regardless that its still quick.

The as soon as M3 ultra/max desktops come out the m4 will be replacing it and the new tech will annoy those desktop owners when they spend £3+K on a work desktop.

I know they had issues getting the M2 out which is the reason but the whole strategy seems off to me.
I think I'm picking up what you're saying. If Apple releases an M3 Ultra Desktop at the same time as an M4 Max Laptop, customers will have equally fast computers to choose from despite one being a desktop and having the "Ultra" name. For the "Ultra" Desktop to be faster than the "Max" Laptop as the naming hierarchy implies, chips of the same generation need to be available to customers at the same time.

But as Apple's release schedule has been going, the Desktop chips are coming out so late that the Laptops have had time enough to catch up and therefore the Desktops have no advantage over the Laptops.
 
Mathematica, MatLab with Simulink
For comparably-powerful chips, Mathematica probably does perform better on Intel than AS.

But those who bought an an MP for MMA (and are, as you say, now moving away from it for Linux) have to represent only an insignificant fraction of MP users. First, the number who buy MP's for scientific use is surely far fewer than those who buy it for A/V use, since most of Apple's marketing for the MP is directed at the latter rather than the former.

And, even among scientific users of the MP, those who bought it to run MMA have to be a smaller fraction still.

As an extensive user of MMA myself, I can't see most MMA users buying an MP for MMA in the first place, unless they need a lot of RAM. The overwhelming majority of operations in MMA are single-threaded, and MMA makes only limited use of GPU acceleration, so unless you need >128 GB RAM, buying an MP for MMA makes no sense.

In fact, the Intel MP is a less performant machine for most MMA operations than the 2019 & 2020 i9 iMacs, as the latter have higher SC performance. [GB SC for the 2020 i9 is 22% higher than that for the fastest Intel MP, according to Primate's website.]

Thus those who bought an Intel MP for MMA, and are now, with AS, moving away from the MP to use Linux, are surely a small fraction of a small fraction.

I don't have any experience with MatLab.
 
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Historically, dedicated GPUs have always crushed integrated GPUs.

What I find exciting and hopeful is that Apple is the first company who is making integrated GPUs that are not crushed by dedicated GPUs. Yes, the dGPUs still hold an advantage (and in some areas and configurations, a substantial one), but for so many purposes, Apple's iGPUs are now not just "good enough", but "more than good enough" and in portable applications provide this power paired with exceptional battery life.
Apple has done a great job using software to augment smaller hardware. One example of using software to augment smaller hardware is computational photography enabling high-quality photos with small smartphone camera systems. And as far as gaming is concerned, software augments small hardware once again when MetalFX upscaling increases frame rates despite relying on smaller integrated graphics. Apple's do more with less strategy is perfect for them since the majority of their computers are small, portable, and battery-powered.

Apple's highest-end chips devote very large portions of the die to the integrated GPU, which should help the customers who buy the most expensive chips. But the strategy that lifts up the entire silicon portfolio is more sophisticated software, like Nvidia's DLSS 3.5.

While the software future will lift up the graphical capabilities of all of Apple’s chips, Apple still has the right to upsell their fastest chips to their customers. To date, Apple has advertised how much faster their chips have performed compared to last year’s when it comes to professional applications like DaVinci Resolve or Maya 3D. Imagine a future where Apple also advertises how many frames per second certain AAA video games run at when taking advantage of Apple Silicon’s specialized hardware accelerators and the latest version of Metal. For example:
Legend of the Tomb Raider - on M4 : 40 fps
Legend of the Tomb Raider - on M4 Pro : 70 fps
Legend of the Tomb Raider - on M4 Max : 100 fps
Legend of the Tomb Raider - on M4 Ultra : 200 fps
 
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I'd like to see Apple enable higher max clock speeds in their next-gen desktop models than what's in their laptops. But they've not done that yet.

They've done a brilliant job optimizing power vs. performance for their mobile devices (including their laptops). But desktops are different, and thus have a different optimum tradeoff point:

1) They're always plugged in, so battery life isn't an issue.
2) Because they are larger, and can also acommodate heavier heat sinks, they can dissipate more thermal energy than laptops, while maintaining quiet operation.
3) There's an expectation of higher performance with desktops than laptops.

For all these reasons, I'd like to see Apple push the performance of their desktops a bit more.
 
Apple could shift to yearly updates to the Mac. Macs with M4 could launch in November 2024
 
There is no way Apple will leave the Mac Pro on sale with a M2 Ultra while the Mac Studio gets the M3 Ultra and sells for less money. Either the Mac Pro will also get the newer chip or it will be discontinued. My money is on discontinuation, as the AS Mac Pro had little reason to exist beyond Apple saying early on in the transition that they would be making one.
they cannot discontinue the mac pro, they need at least 1 machine that has expandable card slots for the pro users, it's a mandatory requirement for that small but lucrative user base. And it goes beyond just selling them hardware, they use mac softwares as well.

mac pro will be released along with mac studio, i mean it's minimum effort for apple to flip m2 to m3 ultra in it. To majority of the users it's a pointless machine with mac studio being cheaper and having the same spec. But apple need to continue to sell it.
 
Apple Silicon itself is a failure for Mac Pro especially for SoC design. Clearly, Apple doesn't know how to make a workstation just like Mac Pro 2013.

There just isn’t the will or manufacturing capacity to cram that big beautiful case full of power. They can’t make enough giant SoCs, their GPU story is not great, etc.

That case could live for fifty years, they just need to cram it with goodness.
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here—and that really could distinguish the MP from the Studio, and help justify the extra cost—would be if the MP were fully upgradeable to new generations of AS.

Suppose someone purchases an AS MP. The non-computational internals (framework, ducts, fans, power supply, etc) should be good for at least a decade or so. Further suppose three or four years have passed, and the owner wants to upgrade. Apple should offer MP owners the ability to swap out the complete AS motherboard for a new one (I think the whole thing easily slides out), thus significantly cutting their upgrade costs, rather than requiring them to buy a whole new machine.

But Apple has given no indication they will do that, even though it seems it would be the right thing to do for customers that have paid the premium to buy that box, and also be the "green" thing to do.
 
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Does it even make any sense to continue producing a M2 Ultra chip when a M3 Ultra is out?

This article's clickbait.
 
The 2019 Mac Pro is perhaps the best product Apple has ever made.

Shame the new models don’t have the same modularity. I hope Apple goes back to modularity.
 
Apple Silicon itself is a failure for Mac Pro especially for SoC design. Clearly, Apple doesn't know how to make a workstation just like Mac Pro 2013.
In a way, I feel like the spiritual successor to MacPro 2013 is Mac Studio. That thing came around 10 years before its time.
 
How do you know they’re blaming anyone? The reality is they understand the market is too small.
The market is too small for how Apple wants to do it with a totally closed non-upgradable Mac Pro. There is certainly a market for an upgradable Mac Pro, where users can upgrade RAM, SSD and maybe even add their way-too-power-hungry Nvidia RTX 4090. Apple is now pushing users away, but an upgradable Mac Pro could pull users in. And yes, some video editors can afford it to buy a new Mac Pro every 2 years, but if they only need an additional 128 GB RAM, they want to be able to add a few sticks and continue. Apple made a mistake with the trash can Mac ‘Pro’, they reversed their course to only fall back to their behavior of pushing people away a few years later. That isn’t giving anyone any confidence that Apple is caring about them.
 
Yes. They still make the S5 even though the S9 is out. They still make the A15 even though the A17 Pro is out.
Only two product lines uses the Ultra chips

- Mac Studio
- Mac Pro

So, again. Does it make sense two Ultra chips?

When the M2 Pro & M2 Max chips come out the the M1 Pro & M1 Max chips are discontinued.
 
Since AAA gaming on Mac is not moving forward, i just abandoned to buy a Mac Studio.
I registered for GeforceNow for around 50 bucks for 6 months (10 bucks a month) and i can play my whole Steam library on my Macbook Pro M1. My fans stay disabled, even if i play at highest quality settings.
For this money i save to buy a high graphics performance system and even save on energy costs.

The future is cloud services, these energy hungry and bulky desktop systems are dead imho.
 
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Are there many industries out there that still need the Mac Pro? It doesn’t have user upgradable stats and the thunderbolt has largely replaced PCI inputs.
Not many, but a few. The big thing the Pro hallows is internal network cards for some exotic networks types used for storing media. You would thinks they could use a Tunderbird dongle but the marget is too small so there are no dongles.

I think the current Pro is a place holder untilApple can find a way to link MANY chips, not just two of them.

Internal RAM expension is a thing of the past. Physically long busses and sockets make the connection too slow.

Now that 10 GB Ethernet is affordable we can use that for centralized media storage. In 5 or 6 years Apple will not need the Pro, they can build a Studio with 10 GBE and to 8 links Max chips.

In time, think we will see the Pro disappear.
 
There's no technical limitations stopping Apple from putting any never-seen-before-beyond-Ultra chip in a Mac Studio. And, conversely, there's no benefit to putting said "Extreme" chip in the big tower form-factor that we get with the Mac Pro.

Look at the specs and configurations Apple will let you put in the current M2 Mac Pro and Mac Studio. It's all the same apart from the extra ports and slots you get on the Mac Pro.

-How much more clearly do they need to spell out that the big PC tower form-factor of the Mac Pro is redundant in the Apple Silicon era?
The three possible technical limits are power supply, cooling and board space...

The most commonly cited number I can find for the Mac Studio's power supply is 370 watts. This is listed for the M1 Max version as a replacement part, but Apple's specs on all Mac Studios state 370W, so I suspect it's the same PSU on all versions?

We know what a "quad-Max" M3 Extreme could draw, because we know that the maximum power draw of an M3 Max is between 100 and 120 watts (CPU and GPU combined) from the MacBook Pro. That suggests that a "quad-Max" processor alone could require between 400 and 480 watts, already above what the present Studio power supply can handle - before power consumption for RAM, storage and I/O, and before any safety margin. A 600 watt power supply might be (barely) adequate, and 800 watts should be quite safe.

While that is a LOT of power, it is enormously lower than any comparable PC-based system. Big Xeons and Threadrippers that might compete with 48 Apple P-cores have TDPs around 350 watts (and that's TDP, not actual maximum power, which is at least somewhat higher). Power draw from the CPU alone is comparable to a theoretical M3 Extreme, if not higher. 160 of Apple's GPU cores will require at least a desktop RTX 4090 to compete, and almost certainly dual high-end GPUs for many tasks. A single 4090 draws 450 watts, and a pair of high end GPUs will be at least 700 watts or so (depending on exactly what they are). Somewhere between 900 and 1300 watts total for CPU plus GPU is a reasonable estimate. At the lower end of that, the highest end 1200 watt plus PC power supplies can handle the whole system (including RAM, storage and I/O) with a decent safety margin. At the upper end, it gets really tricky - a 1600 watt power supply is right on the line, and a 1600 watt power supply is REALLY touch and go on an all too common 15 amp 110V outlet (a 20 amp outlet is fine, as long as it's on its own circuit).

Cooling is another issue. Can the copper heat sink in the Ultra Studio handle twice the potential power dissipation? Is there anything that fits in the Mac Studio case that CAN?

Finally, the die for an Extreme would be huge, and it would accept 16 memory packages, which also have to find a home - even though they're closely integrated and soldered, they still have to go SOMEWHERE! Will the die and the memory fit on a Studio motherboard? If they do, it will be very tight, and they could very well just not fit.

None of this is even vaguely an issue in the Mac Pro case. The Mac Pro power supply is usually cited as 1400 watts. A 480 watt CPU/GPU leaves over 900 watts for RAM, SSDs, expansion, I/O and safety margin. It's very hard to imagine a combination of (non-GPU) PCIe cards that can come close...

The existing cooler may or may not be sufficient, but it wouldn't be hard to get something that is to fit in that voluminous case! Similarly, there is plenty of room for the CPU and 16 memory packages, almost certainly without even moving anything around - there's acres of space around the M2 Ultra on the current machine!
 
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I saw that argument which another audio producer countered "the thing is a lot of people are moving to external boxes, and we have easy to work with enclosures now for our studios that the need for internal BlackMagic is not as big as it used to be"

OK, don't get me wrong here. I understand that the AS MP was a disappointing product, in a few different ways.

And like you, I also didn't really see the point of it myself—until I read a post from an audio producer who said he was very happy that Apple offered it. He explained that he was using a 2019 Intel MP, and had about $30,000 worth of PCIe audio cards that would need to be transferred to the new machine. With the Mac Studio, he would have had to buy separate external boxes for them.* With the the MP, however, he was able to just slot them inside.

That's who the AS MP is for.

To determine how much sense it makes to offer an AS MP just for that market, you'd need to know what portion of Intel MP buyers use PCIe cards. I don't have that data, but Apple certainly does (or at least has a good estimate).

*Professional-grade PCIe 4.0 expansion boxes aren't cheap. Two of these would hold just as many PCIe cards as the MP (not including the MP's I/O card) (two full-length plus four half-length), and they're $1,200 each, for a total of $2,400:
Could the Mac Pro be at the request of a few (big) customers? What if it's never meant to sell to most people? Let's say something between one and a hundred customers requested it specifically - but those customers were Pixar, Universal Studios (or others in the same line of work)and a bunch of major recording studios? Plus Apple's internal production shop for Apple TV... Each of those places might have between tens and thousands of similarly configured Mac Pros, each containing the same PCIe cards. In the largest cases, it might even be a CUSTOM PCie card or two... Could that market alone be worth a "modified Mac Studio with PCIe slots"?
 
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That's an interesting idea, and makes quite a bit of sense, given that the M3 Pro became its own die, rather than a Max missing some GPU cores and memory controllers. Apple seems to be making enough Apple Silicon that it is worth having more distinct dies.

The M3 Pro is going to show up in at least three products. That will be substantially more volume SoCs consumed by two products than it would over one. Minimally it will be the MBP 14" , 16" , and Mini Pro . Even if want to handwave the MBP 14"/16" into 'one' product it is still more than one Mac product.

If Apple reused the old iMac chassis they could easily come up with a 4th . Ditto if they Microsoft Surface 9 Pro like 'clone'. The core issues is that there are multiple places a Mx Pro can go in the Mac line up. For whatever deep mysteries Apple never did the Mini Pro with the M1 generation. Probably because Apple underestimated how well the Mini would do once unshackled from the impoverished Intel iGPUs and thermal limits.


If Apple 'forks' the desktop Max+Ultra placement off from the MBP Pro 14/16" then that shrinks the placements of the Max . Even worse if keep the far more affordable Studio variant with the Max coupled to the MBP 14"/16" Max subset and for Ultra/Extreme off by themselves in the $6K+ range of limited volume. Apple has shown no moves toward derivative silicon that goes into FEWER products than the previous generation. Apple whole grand strategy with Apple designed SoCs has for YEARS been to stuff the SoCs into multiple products in a hand-me down fashion. iPads got iPhone SoCs. AppleTV got iPad Pro SoC for a while. The Homepod Mini is getting Apple Watch SoCs. etc. etc.

What Apple is missing a real chiplet that would all them to span "Max-like" , "Ultra-like" , "more than Ultra Like" using the same base compute die and probably some decoupled I/O die(s) ( practically nobody needs 12-16 Thunderbolt ports or more than one secure elements or four Apple SSD controllers. ). Apple would need something that covered both the Mac Studio and Mac Pro products to even remote to get to volume coverage with just two products.

The catch-22 is whether the MBP 14"/16" Max variants decoupled from the Mac Studio are really still 'two products' worth of volume. If not will get the bundling of the Studio+MP to cover 'two viable products worth' of volume.



There are a couple of design wins with that... One is that unnecessary pieces can be eliminated. The Ultra doesn't need 8 e-cores, and the Extreme certainly doesn't need 16 of them - anything that wants a ton of cores almost certainly also wants P-cores instead of e-cores. It doesn't make sense to eliminate the e-cores entirely - they're very useful for writing e-mail or the like. while waiting for a bigger job to complete, but the Ultra can go down to 4, leaving the Extreme with 8 (which is too many, but better than 16).

That isn't how Apple uses e-cores. Any foreground GUI task is going to soak up a P core ( strong 'push' to make anything feel like it has a 'snappy' response. ) . It is more so non interactive stuff that gets shuttled to the background ( and e cores). Apple really doesn't need a x4 ("Extreme"). 3x would/should work at least as well as the increment from Mx Pro to Mx Max has worked.

The major 'problem' with the M1/M2 Max die is far more so that the I/O focus is optimized for the two sides of a thin MBP chassis. 'who needs more than 4 ports....' . It doesn't scale well in utility at all. Folks may sneer at E-cores but

a: they still scale in work done. May not be hype worthy for extra bragging rights type of scale but they do get more work done. That not having them at all. [ It is pure fantasy that dropping e-cores is going to get more P cores. The die space trade off isn't even close. Dropping e-cores extremely likely isn't going to get more P cores. ]




Another example is that the Ultra doesn't need a duplicated Neural Engine, and the Extreme doesn't need four of them. Very little makes use of the Neural Engine, and the few things that do (largely Apple's own apps) are written to run on exactly one of them - it is consistent all the way from the iPhone to the Max, and the number of Ultras out there with a second one isn't large enough to interest developers.

Apple's AI/ML libraries are not limited to Apple apps in any significant way. Lots of apps use these and as more apps adopt more AI/ML features ( which is the 'feature trend' for at least the next couple of years ). Apple's top end compute is WAY behind top end class AI/ML add-in cards can add elsewhere. Tossing AI/ML performance out window is only going to lead to less Mac sold.


If Apple removed the duplicate Neural Engine and some of the e-cores from a custom-die Ultra, they could either make the die smaller than two Maxes or throw in extra units that do scale - either extra P-cores, extra GPU cores or a mixture of the two.

That likely isn't going to work if there is any remote couple coupling of Apple's AI/ML upscaling to graphics. If have more GPU cores to render higher resolutions but the upscaler isn't also scaling then have a balance problem.
Similar with any coupling between media en/decoding and AI/ML cores.



The second win is that there is no need to design in an additional interposer placement. If the current interposer is on the North-South axis of the chip, a four-way Extreme would also require one on the East-West axis.

if just stop at 3 can keep same "north/south" reusable pattern. Prune off the I/O at the 'top/north' and can attach either the i/O chiplet or another 'compute' chiplet. Decoupling the compute cores doesn't really buy a whole lot. And can make it substantively smaller if stuff that is trying to talk to the outside/off-die world. That is the relatively oversized stuff. ( cache is next after that ). The various compute core logic is shrinking with N3B/N3E. The I/O and cache is relatively not. ( with N3E ... not at all. full regression back the N5 sizes! ). You are going through lots of gyrations to kick off the stuff that isn't getting smaller. Kick the relatively chunky stuff off and will more likely get a smaller die.

The UltraFusion is still off-die communication , but it is not long distance off die. It is incrementally smaller to go vary micro distances than to go inches/centimeters (or more ) away.
 
The M3 Ultra Mac Studio will be my next Mac, replacing a 2019 i9 MacBook Pro for daily use (with 64GB RAM and a 2TB SSD installed, the MBP is still very, very powerful and a really nice mobile machine).
 
How many people own a Mac Pro? A few thousand?

it is likely close to a run rate of 100K per year than it is 1K per year. The user base is no where near a thousand. Even if the user cycle was refresh on average every 4 years and used market 'sell into' rate of 15% you'd be pretty close to 10K range.

The Mac Pro user base is probably closer to 100K range (than to 1K order of magnitude ) , but also likely less than 1M range. (unless counting the deactivated MP folks keep in their historical collections. )

A 100K is 'a lot of users " ... to fill up a football stadium yes. To fund developer of an highly substantively different , large chip architecture at historic MP prices ... not really. Nvidia has hit the jackpot on hype for the H100

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...a-million-units-in-q3-thanks-to-meta-facebook

so they'll crack the 1M mark probably sooner than they thought. But even that ( with a much higher average selling price) wasn't going to sell in the 'several thousands" range.


The unit volumes doesn't have to be in the 'thousands' to be too small to have problems for getting to breakeven for a relatively very large die/package development. The big server chips from AMD/Intel/Nvidia tend to aggregate into 6-7 digit deployments over their service lifetimes. That's is what the Mac Pro would likely have to get to fork off an do something 'completely different'.

The Mac Studio + Mac Pro combined I suspect is a viable number. A coupled issue though would be whether the MBP 14/16" Max subset was/is also a viable number. And if the SoC 'churn' rate is 1.5-2 years that is an even smaller user base that has to pay for the die/package development. The individual year run rate has to be high enough... not the total user base size of any Mac Pro variant.
 
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