It doesn't work that way unfortunately, as the ultra chip always comes later. Apple never releases the ultra chip along with the base chip. The other way would be to first release an M5 Max version only of the Mac Studio, but that would never happen.
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M4 Mac Studio and Mac Pro Launching in Mid to Late 2025
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I think you’re right, since the M1 was released I’ve updated my Mac more frequently than at any other time. I used to wait at least 4 years to upgrade. I think it might be the power improvements matter more year over year now, or I’m just falling for the marketing ‘better.’
I suspect the reason for this delay is more insidious than low yields.
Apple currently has a competitive advantage when it comes to VRAM due to unified memory.
A comparable nvidia card with 80gb of vram is 3x the price of a M2 Ultra even if performance is faster.
You could strap together 3 or 4 3090s or 4090s but that adds additional layers of complexity.
When running large LLMs the M2 Ultra with 192gb memory is by far the most affordable option even if inference is slow.
When the m3 max came out, one naturally assumed that a 256gb m3 ultra was around the corner. But nope. Now we have another year delay before we see any new high vram models with m4 ultra.
Apple I think knows it’s competitive advantage here, and either they’re using these chips for their own AI cloud or holding out for maximum bang for buck. My M1 Max with 64gb ram can run models that would require 2 24gb nvidia cards (yes it’s slow but still). I was personally holding out for an m3 or m4 ultra for higher VRAM but I might now be forced to buy an M2 Ultra if I need to wait another year before it gets released.
I don’t think Apple realised that an AI revolution was around the corner when they released the m1s. The rush to market shows this. Now they plan to milk it.
Apple currently has a competitive advantage when it comes to VRAM due to unified memory.
A comparable nvidia card with 80gb of vram is 3x the price of a M2 Ultra even if performance is faster.
You could strap together 3 or 4 3090s or 4090s but that adds additional layers of complexity.
When running large LLMs the M2 Ultra with 192gb memory is by far the most affordable option even if inference is slow.
When the m3 max came out, one naturally assumed that a 256gb m3 ultra was around the corner. But nope. Now we have another year delay before we see any new high vram models with m4 ultra.
Apple I think knows it’s competitive advantage here, and either they’re using these chips for their own AI cloud or holding out for maximum bang for buck. My M1 Max with 64gb ram can run models that would require 2 24gb nvidia cards (yes it’s slow but still). I was personally holding out for an m3 or m4 ultra for higher VRAM but I might now be forced to buy an M2 Ultra if I need to wait another year before it gets released.
I don’t think Apple realised that an AI revolution was around the corner when they released the m1s. The rush to market shows this. Now they plan to milk it.
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This... a thousand times.
The timeline just makes absolutely no sense. Have top of the line computers already two CPU generations behind iPads and soon entry level computers.
Either a Mac Studio with M4 Max and Ultra's are coming out a lot earlier than Gurman thinks, or they're coming out with M5 Max and Ultra in June.
No, I think Gurman is spot-on. He may not have the specific month right, but the higher-end SoCs will generally come later than the lower-end ones.
Why do you think the M2 Pro has the same peformance as the M2 Max Studio?
The Mac Studio has almost twice the GPU performance of the M2 Pro machines, even with the unbinned 19-core GPU.
The M1/M2 Pro & Max had the same CPU cores so were naturally almost identical for single-thread and multi-threaded performance. The purpose of the Max SoC for M1 & M2 was to provide more GPU power, the option for more RAM, more memory bandwidth, and additional hardware encoders.
The M3 Pro introduced a weaker combination of performance and efficiency cores which created a separation between Base, Pro and Max SoCs- ~12000 vs ~15000 vs ~21000 in GB6 multi-core. This is highly likely to continue to the M4 line.
So the M4 Max Studio and M4 Pro Mini will have very clear performance differences that put them into different categories - and prices of course!
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My assumption was that the expected downsized Mac Mini would have versions for base M4 and M4 Pro and be released next month. I doubt it will be as small as the Apple TV, but probably about 2/3 the size of the current Mini and a bit thicker - essentially a scaled-down Mac Studio. This should have plenty of capacity for a serious heat-sink and fan, considering the Pro SoCs run quite happily in the cramped confines of a 14" MBP.
I don't see why Apple would complicate matters by keeping the old chassis for the M4 Pro. Most of the Mini these days is empty space.
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The M4 Pro is likely to be quite close to the M3 Max in multicore if the recent 10-core M4 benchmark on Geekbench is correct (~15,000 multi-core, with 4p+6e). If the M4 has 6p+6e then it might be 25-30% more powerful, getting close to 20,000 - almost matching the M3 Max in multi-core, and easily surpassing it in single-core.
GPU will of course be a lot lower, but the M4 Pro in unbinned form (say 18-20 GPU cores) could be close to the 32-core M1 Max GPU.
It's quite impressive that we are seeing annual performance improvements that make this year's Pro SoC catch up to last year's Max SoC in some metrics.
I'm at the point that I think I probably don't need a Max SoC for significant audio and video production work. I'm really looking forward to seeing the in-depth reviews of the M4 Pro.
I had that same thought. Out of curiosity which platform would you sell your mac mini on? and at what price from what you paid for?
I suspect the simple truth is that the majority of users who purchased an M1 or M2 Mac Studio simply isn't going to upgrade anytime soon. So projected sales just isn't enough to justify an annual refresh of their Mac desktop line.
Apple Slowly Moves Away From Its Annual Product Release Strategy
Apple is inching away from its annual product upgrade cycle, a move that could lead to more frequent releases and fewer jarring delays. Also: A look at when the company’s next products are coming out, including Apple Intelligence.
www.bloomberg.com
Not to mention the insane power requirements on nVidia 5000 series hardware. As I waffle back and forth on what to upgrade my personal machine to, that potential 500 watt+ nvidia cards just seems insane. Yeah, M4 Max/Ultra won't be that powerful. But it probably won't have fire hazard power connecters in it, either.
Edit: just did the math on what a Max chip in a Macbook Pro costs versus what the same money gets you in a Mac Studio.
It sure would be nice for save well over $1000 in a Mac Studio M4 config.
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Apple Silicon developments are non disputable (period) but considering, as you put it, work — I got to add my ¢3: 1. system bandwidth and 2. hardware encoder/decoders amount (which are boosted in Max/Ultra SoC) plus (depending on the software use) 3. sometimes GPU — all those three are playing significant role in any Mac video production abilities.
Not to mention machine thermals, because serious work in a field means also serious hours. So as far as today – lower end tends to choke, if you work consistently so.
Thus I’ll be paying attention to future M4 Pro reviews (with special attention to ArtIsRight) — maniacally — before I’ll draw similar conclusions to yours.
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Yes, I don't think owners of M2 Mac Studios, and probably most M1 Studios are the target audience though. There are still a ton of 27" Intel iMac owners- like me! - who are waiting to upgrade.
The ironic thing is I really thought we'd would've seen them already or maybe this fall. About the only thing good I was able to get a Studio Display before I stopped working for Apple with my employee discount (25%). By the time the next Mac Studio comes out, the display will be a year old. Currently, I use it with my M3 Max MacBook.
As much as I hate Gurman's iterative approach to predictions that means he is rarely wrong. There must be something in the gap he is suggesting between the Mac Studio and Mac Pro releases next year
I wonder if that means the Mac Pro will actually be something different this time. Not a repackaged Mac Studio Ultra but something that stands alone with its own processor(s) that has some extra special sauce to justify the "Pro" label. Plus a price tag to reflect that!!
I wonder if that means the Mac Pro will actually be something different this time. Not a repackaged Mac Studio Ultra but something that stands alone with its own processor(s) that has some extra special sauce to justify the "Pro" label. Plus a price tag to reflect that!!
If anything, I would expect the opposite. Mac mini will likely continue to serve M vanilla and M Pro, and the Mac Pro could simply be slid down to the Max and Ultra. The Studio could be retired at some point.
Why? Because with the M-chips becoming more powerful and efficient each year, the uses for the highest end chips will become even more niche than what they are currently. It's easy to forget just how ridiculously powerful the M4 chip is and what that enables a user to do compared to even M1, or the last Intel chips in Macs.
Mac Studio exists only because the Max and Ultra chips couldn't be cooled within the Mini enclosure, simple as. But if we are to believe the rumour that the Mini is getting a new smaller design and that it will still be able to cool the Pro chip adequately, then it's only natural that the Studio's cooling system will be overkill and that the product is either redesigned or retired in favour of a more compact Mac Pro.
I am out of the game but when it comes to Mac Pros , isn't it better to be on the PC side? I imagine one of these PC towers can loaded with Nvidia RTX 6000 cards with and 100s GB RAM chips and it would be more powerful and price efficient than Mac Pro, unless you REALLY REALL REALLY like MacOS...
I am considered the "Techy" among my social circle and I have no idea the difference between m1, m2 , nor the ipad releases. I know as the number gets higher its better, but what does that really mean for the average user?
I think they're saying they'd be dissatisfied if the Mac Pro with M4 Ultra has the same performance as the Mac Studio with M4 Ultra, or to put that another way: if there isn't a higher-end BTO option on the Mac Pro than on the Mac Studio, and you essentially pay $3,000 mostly for the ability to insert PCIe cards.
Which, we'll see. I wouldn't be surprised if that's once again the case.
And how do you install PCI Express cards in the Mac Studio? Just because you don't need them doesn't mean others don't either. It's like saying someone is stupid for buying a combine harvester because, for that amount of money, you could buy a Ferrari with similar horsepower. Good luck plowing the fields with a Ferrari!
(And yes, I do know about external TB PCI Express chassis. Some people like to keep everything internally.)
We can try to extrapolate from @steve09090's chart.
The M3 Pro is ~20% faster than the M3 at multi-core. The M4 is ~21.2% faster than the M3 at multi-core.
Therefore, the M4 Pro will likely reach a multi-core score of (14,375/11,975)*14512 = 17,420.
Based on other data, I was originally closer to 18,000. But 20,000 I don't really see based on current data.
I'll be curious to see what the RAM max will be for the Mini and the test scores as compared to the M1 Studio. I feel much the same but need a fair amount of RAM as I used memory-intensive programs. The M1 Mini with 512/16 didn't cut it for me which led me to get the Studio with 64 gigs of RAM.
Hate having to keep posting the same comment but here goes. Do you actually read these Bloomberg/Gurman pieces? They are not citing SOURCES, Gurman says he EXPECTS something to take place. They have no more knowledge of Apple’s plans than you or I do. Honestly don’t understand why you are not understanding this.
Although, Apple is very much in the business of upselling. Buy a Max, add several RAM/SSD upgrades, might as well just get an Ultra version instead.
I addition Apple is concerned that some M1/M2 Ultra Studio user will just settle for a M4 Max Studio if that was all only one that was available
And if a consumer really wants an M4 Max. Apple would prefer to sell them a more expensive MacBook Pro than a Mac Studio
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