M5 Chip Rumored to Debut in These Five Apple Products Later This Year

[rbbloom99]

"Kuo expects the Vision Pro with the M5 chip to enter mass production in the third quarter of 2025"

Mass Production? Who's buying them anymore?

 

[chucker23n1]

I see no one is talking about the iMac, and that's because the only update people are waiting for to make that product attractive is a larger screen size.

No, it’s because an AIO desktop is a niche product. ~90% of Macs sold are laptops.

 

[chucker23n1]

You can always buy other brands. Huawei has tablets with 24GB of RAM.

Only to find out that there is very little interesting tablet software on Android, so what good is all that RAM going to do?

 

[maflynn]

Absolutely going to buy the Mac mini with M5 Pro this year. I love my base Mac mini M4 but i do need more ram and storage space.

I was in your boat and after a few gyrations, I settled in on the Mac Studio - may I suggest you consider that. Once you upgrade ram and storage - it's a short jump top the Pro version of the mini, and for about 600 more you get more ram, and 2x GPU cores in the studio - plus superior cooling (compared to the Pro Mini model)

 

[chucker23n1]

Had they waited, at this price point, they could have released an M7 AVP

You think “ego” is why Tim Cook didn’t want to wait five more generations to release?

with 144hz refresh,

I really don’t think this is a spec that’s important for a first-generation product, unless you focus on gaming, which they did not. And a big gaming VR headset already exists anyway. Which doesn’t do 144 either.

140+ degrees of FOV,

Maybe, but I never hear actual AVP owners even mention the FOV.

pass-through AR

The AVP’s pass-through is already second-to-none.

at under 400 grams (somewhere around 300 grams is what is needed for "all day" comfort, the AVP is more than double that).

This I’ll agree with. It’s too heavy. And its battery life to limited.

But price, and limited software, are much bigger factors.

 

[UltimaKilo]

You think “ego” is why Tim Cook didn’t want to wait five more generations to release?



I really don’t think this is a spec that’s important for a first-generation product, unless you focus on gaming, which they did not. And a big gaming VR headset already exists anyway. Which doesn’t do 144 either.



Maybe, but I never hear actual AVP owners even mention the FOV.



The AVP’s pass-through is already second-to-none.



This I’ll agree with. It’s too heavy. And its battery life to limited.

But price, and limited software, are much bigger factors.

I don’t know what you mean by wait “five generations” only release the product when it’s ready. Moreover, he indeed release the product for vanity’s sake, as reported by the WSJ and Bloomberg.

Secondly, refresh rate is incredibly important to keep people from feeling sick and FOV is important for immersion.

Lastly, no the AVP does not have pass-through AR, what are you talking about? Pass through lenses don’t even exist commercially yet and are years away. Waveguide lenses probably won’t be ready until 2029, at the earliest. Until then, you’ll only see this gimmicky AR system.

 

[chucker23n1]

I don’t know what you mean by wait “five generations” only release the product when it’s ready.

And between 2023 and 2028, do what exactly? Have the engineers work on a car instead? Fire them?

Secondly, refresh rate is incredibly important to keep people from feeling sick and FOV is important for immersion.

And yet most VR headsets are doing fine with lower specs.

Lastly, no the AVP does not have pass-through AR, what are you talking about?

You turn the dial. You got pass-through.

Pass through lenses don’t even exist commercially yet

Who’s the gimmick person now? You’re chasing a pipe dream; camera-based AR works quite well on AVP today.

 

[UltimaKilo]

And between 2023 and 2028, do what exactly? Have the engineers work on a car instead? Fire them?



And yet most VR headsets are doing fine with lower specs.



You turn the dial. You got pass-through.



Who’s the gimmick person now? You’re chasing a pipe dream; camera-based AR works quite well on AVP today.

Work on the product, just as the engineers wanted to, until it was more commercially viable rather than poison a space.

Apple shouldn’t be chasing what other companies are doing. Researchers figured out years ago that the refresh rate should be around 360hz to be imperceivable to the human eye, so while that is not viable (nor will be this decade), Apple should be pushing the boundaries and 144hz should be the baseline. Moreover, nobody is doing “fine” as this has not yet become a widely adopted platform.

Lastly, no. Pass-through AR is what everyone is chasing and will be for the next 10 years.

 

[iHorseHead]

Only to find out that there is very little interesting tablet software on Android, so what good is all that RAM going to do?

Huawei has their own OS that they use on their tablets and computers and phones? It runs on Harmony kernel. And that's what Windows users usually say about Macs, but imagine if you could take a screen off of your MacBook and use it as a tablet.
Also, look at Huawei's phones:

Yeah, you say you don't need it but if Apple did it you'd be very excited.

 

[chucker23n1]

Work on the product, just as the engineers wanted to,

Why would Tim Cook greenlight that? It had been worked on for many years already. There's no evidence that giving it slightly higher specs moves the needle.

until it was more commercially viable rather than poison a space.

What "poisoned the space" is mostly inflated expectations from the "metaverse". That happened before AVP was announced.

Apple shouldn’t be chasing what other companies are doing.

They didn't. AVP made some design choices that are very unlike the Meta Quest or HTC Vive. Focusing on eye tracking, for example.

Researchers figured out years ago that the refresh rate should be around 360hz to be imperceivable to the human eye, so while that is not viable (nor will be this decade), Apple should be pushing the boundaries and 144hz should be the baseline.

Right, so they should start selling it in 2032, for $4,999. That's your great idea?

Huawei has their own OS that they use on their tablets and computers and phones?

There are reasons to believe that "HarmonyOS" is really just a rebadged Android that tries to circumvent copyright.

But let's say it isn't. That really just strengthens my point, which is that it doesn't have an app ecosystem. For every Pixelmator, Procreate, Logic, what is there on Android? What is there on Huawei tablets? Which artists do you know who use a Huawei tablet as their main device? Plenty do with an iPad or Windows tablet.

imagine if you could take a screen off of your MacBook and use it as a tablet.

Yeah?

Convertibles have existed since the early 2000s.

So, I don't have to imagine it; I held such a thing in my hands. Now what?

Yeah, you say you don't need it but if Apple did it you'd be very excited.

To me, "I wish I could remove the keyboard" is one of those sci-fi things that look great with a big production budget, and are very awkward and not that useful in practice.

I'm not everyone, though. I'm sure some people like that.

If Apple made a convertible, I probably wouldn't buy it. As far as form factor goes, the 14-inch MacBook Pro is already quite perfect for me.

 

[G5isAlive]

Except the headset has poisoned the market be releasing a half-baked product using gimmicky solutions like camera-based AR because pass-through is still years away

You make it clear with all your rants you have never tried an AVP for more than 15 minutes because you resort to artificial lines that by your own admission don't exist yet and reliance on artificial metrics to criticize. In the meantime every one else accepts 'pass-through' to mean you can see what is around you inside the googles via cameras, a solution that every single vendor who even attempts 'pass-through' utilizes. Ever. Single. One.

btw, given the number of new products being released in this space, the market is hardly poisoned, and Apple's is still actively developing products there.

So while you have found a use for it, you are in an incredibly small minority, which is reflected in the piss poor sales.

Yeah, sales. Your friend Cook has been reported in the WSJ and Bloomberg, since you seem to value those publications, as saying ""At $3,500, it's not a mass-market product," said Cook. "Right now, it's an early-adopter product. People who want to have tomorrow's technology today—that's who it's for. Fortunately, there's enough people who are in that camp that it's exciting."

Not piss poor sales. They never intended to sell a lot. This has been stated so many times its hard to believe you missed it.

And as for being part of a small minority, so? what is your point? the majority is always right, or the only way to go? Almost all organizations or clubs people aspire to are the minority. Admittedly sometimes the elite minority is mocked by those who can't join.

All the reports are that Apple Engineers argued against releasing this product because they felt it was half-baked, but Tim Cook wanted to push it through because of his ego: he wanted to ensure such a device would release under his tenure.

um. one disgruntled employee leaked a rumor that the world's largest company did something he or she didnt like. And then news organizations that profit off of negative clicks reported it. WOW. Shocking. Water is wet.

And it was clearly not a lot of reports, if any serious, because googling it now, you are hard pressed to find reference to it. Unless Cook personally purged the internet with Batman's 'clean slate'

Had they waited, at this price point, they could have released an M7 AVP with 144hz refresh, 140+ degrees of FOV, pass-through AR at under 400 grams (somewhere around 300 grams is what is needed for "all day" comfort, the AVP is more than double that).

How long would they have to wait? 5 years? 10 years? Why isn't everyone else waiting because no one hits your specs. Maybe they think it's time to get their feet wet.

Moreover, he indeed release the product for vanity’s sake, as reported by the WSJ and Bloomberg.

So you say. Shrugs. He is the CEO he is entitled to make decisions.

Secondly, refresh rate is incredibly important to keep people from feeling sick and FOV is important for immersion.

because people all over are reporting their AVPs are making them ill? Nope. Just isn't happening like you imply it has to if they dont follow your secret formula. And while the AVP is perhaps justifiably criticized for its weight and fit, no one ever reports it lack immersion.

Lastly, no the AVP does not have pass-through AR, what are you talking about? Pass through lenses don’t even exist commercially yet and are years away. Waveguide lenses probably won’t be ready until 2029, at the earliest. Until then, you’ll only see this gimmicky AR system.

Yeah you keep repeating this. Doesn't mean what everyone is doing is wrong or gimmicky. But hey. someone should tell people with security cameras those are gimmicky too and what they really need is waveguide lenses that havent been perfected yet.

In the end, it's just a headset. Not the end of the world. Not even the end of Apple. or the AVP.

 

[doelcm82]

All the reports are that Apple Engineers argued against releasing this product because they felt it was half-baked, but Tim Cook wanted to push it through because of his ego: he wanted to ensure such a device would release under his tenure.

I have read reports that don't say that, so clearly all of them don't say that. It's a narrative you like for some reason.

Apple can still release a vision device with the specs you mentioned. Releasing the first one doesn't prevent that from happening. And after that improved device they can release one that's better still.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I have read reports that don't say that, so clearly all of them don't say that. It's a narrative you like for some reason.

What do those reports say instead?

Have any links you could share with us?

 

[Ethrem]

I think I'll stick with my M4 Max Studio for a few years. I wish it had more gaming oomph but it's not worth dropping another $2K+ next year unless we end up in Nvidia 4080+ territory.

Might look at upgrading the iPad 10th Gen though.

 

[frownface]

I don't expect to see any significant changes to the Vision Pro, besides processor refreshes and new software features (like the many missing apps) that come with each OS update. One year is simply too short for Apple to course-correct, and that is even assuming they think that these are design flaws to begin with.

By the time the AVP2 makes it to market; it'll be nearly 2 years newer than the AVP1; and 3 generations of CPU newer. While the new features that get released this year may filter back to the AVP1, that may not be true for new (potentially killer) features that get released next year or the year after.

Apple aren't shy about gating new features behind new hardware, and maybe visionOS28 finally has the features that people have been clamouring for; but requires M5 to run.

 

[Abazigal]

By the time the AVP2 makes it to market; it'll be nearly 2 years newer than the AVP1; and 3 generations of CPU newer. While the new features that get released this year may filter back to the AVP1, that may not be true for new (potentially killer) features that get released next year or the year after.

Apple aren't shy about gating new features behind new hardware, and maybe visionOS28 finally has the features that people have been clamouring for; but requires M5 to run.

I guess the main question behind the Vision Pro is - what exactly is it for?

It can't possibly just be an expensive portable monitor that I can keep in my backpack and bring overseas with me, right? Or a pricey way of viewing spatial videos of loved ones who are no longer around (which while useful, also sounds pretty sad).

It could be great for viewing content, in which case there should be an easier way of loading media onto it (even the iPad has a usb-c port for flash drives). Right now, it feels like only Apple is bankrolling the creation of spatial video for the AVP, and there's a noticeable lack of it.

Giving a presentation in keynote, while visually amazing, looks pretty niche simply because most people just don't use keynote (they will default to either Zoom or Teams). Maybe it will be cool to attend a zoom meeting that way, but I am not sure I want to wear it for 2-3 hours at a stretch either. Heck, I think I played with zoom on my Apple TV once and then forgot about it.

The lack of cellular connectivity is surprising as well, since the point of a headset is that you can go anywhere with it.

At the moment, it feels like an accessory to the Mac (just like the Apple Watch is an accessory to the iPhone). Were I to get one, I am pretty clear what I would do with it, and it still feels quite limited. The hardware is there, now is for the software side to catch up, IMO.

 

[G5isAlive]

I guess the main question behind the Vision Pro is - what exactly is it for?

First of all, thanks for the thoughtful response. It is surprising (or maybe not) that in an article about 5 apple devices getting an M5, the AVP dominates the conversation. If nothing else, that's free advertising. As for your question, I think like the Apple Watch, that varies a lot by the person. For better or worse, it does not have one niche it occupies.

It can't possibly just be an expensive portable monitor that I can keep in my backpack and bring overseas with me, right?

You're right, it's not just a monitor. It's a standalone computer that can be used for a wide variety of things like reading email, browsing the internet, editing pictures and movies.... the list goes on and on. Sure, you can do those other things on other devices but so? Why do we need iPads then, because what can it do that an iPhone can't? Or a Mac? Sure the iPad has a bigger screen that makes it more convenient at some tasks than and iPad, well, so does the AVP. And the AVP is better at some things.

Or a pricey way of viewing spatial videos of loved ones who are no longer around (which while useful, also sounds pretty sad).

Oh agreed, it's pricey all right and a lot of people just cant get past that. But once you accept it's pricey then you can explore what it can do. You are gilding the lily here by only mentioning the sadness of lost loved ones, it can be used for creating and viewing spatial videos of happy events and places. At some point technology and affordable will catch up, and at that point I will have this archive to share with future generations. In the same way that I took panorama pictures with my iPhone for years even though I didnt quite like how they appeared on conventional screens. I am happy I have them now and can relive those moments so much better with the AVP.

It could be great for viewing content, in which case there should be an easier way of loading media onto it (even the iPad has a usb-c port for flash drives). Right now, it feels like only Apple is bankrolling the creation of spatial video for the AVP, and there's a noticeable lack of it.

Yes, it is phenomenal for viewing 3d immersive content, and you are right it's mostly Apple these days bankrolling that, but it's also great for viewing existing 3D movies and there are plenty of those. But it's also a great way of viewing 2D images and movies no matter where you are on a 'wide screen.' So yeah its a great way to view any content.

Oh, and I agree with you 100%, it should have wired connection capability (USB-C or TB) for content loading, and I have told Apple that several times.

The lack of cellular connectivity is surprising as well, since the point of a headset is that you can go anywhere with it.

Agreed. Maybe that will be on AVP2. or maybe not. It's likely tied to cost on an already expensive product, and battery consumption as well. Cellular connectivity in remote areas can really eat up a battery as it constantly tries to reconnect. And then there is the question of bandwidth... sure cellular would be great for the internet and email, but any 3D content takes a LOT of bandwidth and data. But even without, most places have wifi these days, and then there is always remote storage for content when there isn't wifi. On the devices I do own and have a choice, I do NOT have cellular connectivity on any of my iPads, but I do on my Apple Watch. Shrugs. But hey, why isn't it in ANY of their computers?!

At the moment, it feels like an accessory to the Mac (just like the Apple Watch is an accessory to the iPhone). Were I to get one, I am pretty clear what I would do with it, and it still feels quite limited.

It can be an accessory to a Mac, and it's quite good at that with large screen viewing options, but really as a standalone computer it does so much more. I would say I only spend about 20% of the time tethered to a Mac, and that's a bonus. On release day it didn't support screen sharing like that and I found plenty to do with it. I hear you, before spending that kind of money most people would need a specific use to justify it. I was just eager to explore what this new technology can do because it is clear this is one way the future is headed. For me it is fun and convenient. I get some need more than that

The hardware is there, now is for the software side to catch up, IMO.

Certainly software will only improve, and faster than the hardware, but for me its already useful and its like the days of the 1984 Mac, it gets better at an amazing rate.

Anyway, I get that it's an expensive hobby, but a lot of great hobbies are. You should see my camera budget. Ouch. I get that for some it needs to be more about productivity, though it great for that for me, and there are cheaper ways to be productive, but eh. Like I said, it's an exciting glimpse to the future at a time many people are whining Apple has no vision. Apple has it all right, even Steve Jobs used to quote Wayne Gretzky, ""I skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it has been." These are still the early days, and many people just can't see it (not saying you). All those bad puns intended.

 

[frownface]

I guess the main question behind the Vision Pro is - what exactly is it for?

At this stage 🤷‍♂️
And that's the problem with apple today.
It's a technical marvel; sure. But people look at it, then move on. It has almost nil penetration and doesn't generate any sort of want or hype. They launched it here in australia over a year ago; and i've never seen one anywhere. Even the last time i was in an apple store picking up a new pencil for my daughter's ipad; i don't even remmeber them having one on display.

While a big part of that is price, the ipod/iphone were expensive compared to other mp3 players/smart phones; but they weren't 10x as expensive. They were still considered affordable to the masses. But the other part of that is a killer feature that makes people go; oh **** i need that in my life.

It probably will come one day, but as time ticks on, and newer versions come out. It's unlikely those features are going to filter back to the gen 1.

 

[frownface]

It is surprising (or maybe not) that in an article about 5 apple devices getting an M5, the AVP dominates the conversation.

I think it's largely because it's the one item on the list that benefits least from the upgrade.
People complain about price, they complain about weight, they complain about battery, and they complain about lack of features/software. They don't complain about it being lacking in performance.

With maybe exception for battery life; a new chip does nothing to address any of those things, and worse yet probably makes it pricier, while making it obvious to gen 1 holders that their purchase is now a generation old and susceptible to being hardware gated out of any new features.

 

[Abazigal]

It is surprising (or maybe not) that in an article about 5 apple devices getting an M5, the AVP dominates the conversation.

For me, the rest are known variables. Macs and iPads are pretty standard Apple products which most people here should be familiar with, and a spec bump is pretty much expected at this stage. Myself, I keep swinging between wanting to get the latest MBA (the 15" model for the larger display), and just wanting to see how far my M1 MBA can go (as it's still going strong). The back-to-school promo didn't really appeal to me, and so I just bought a switch 2 console at the end of June instead.

My 2017 5k iMac still has no clear upgrade path, plus it's working fine as a web browser and YouTube machine for my dad. I already have the M4 iPad Pro; only question is whether the M5 iPad will come with 16gb ram standard or still 8gb ram (with 16gb ram reserved for the higher storage tiers).

I don't expect any changes to the form factor of the aforementioned devices either.

Maybe I will upgrade from my 13 pro max (see how it handles liquid glass), or maybe I won't. My Apple Watch is pretty new as well (series 10), but anyone who frequents the watch forum knows of the paint chipping issue I have with it (have already gotten it replaced twice). Maybe get an Apple TV if and when it gets refreshed, but I am also no longer subscribed to Apple Arcade, and I have the switch now for gaming (when I have the time).

I like my apple products and I love the overall ecosystem, yet I don't really feel compelled to upgrade. They just work, and I don't really need that much more out of them.

That leaves the Vision Pro as the last new product category, and I am also not able to use it without wearing contacts or getting corrective eye surgery (Apple apparently doesn't have lenses that suit my degree). I kinda have an idea what I would use it for, but I also don't think I would be comfortable using it around my parents (my mom especially hates the idea of it). Contrast this with my iPad, which I can use while in the living room with her while we are both watching tv and she's totally fine with it.

I do wonder what the M5 chip can do for the vision pro? Somewhat better battery life? I have not heard of anyone complain of performance issues, but perhaps just not enough people are actually using it to have a viable sample size?

 

[EugW]

My 2017 5k iMac still has no clear upgrade path, plus it's working fine as a web browser and YouTube machine for my dad.

I gave my 2017 5K to my kid and am using a M4 Mac mini, but I’m waiting for the 32” 6K LG (218 ppi) to be released. Currently using a 28.2” 4K+ (163 ppi) Huawei.

 

[Geekett]

What about the 90 Hz display rumored on the iMac ?
Given the price and lack of novelties, it would be a much welcomed upgrade

 

[G5isAlive]

For me, the rest are known variables. Macs and iPads are pretty standard Apple products which most people here should be familiar with, and a spec bump is pretty much expected at this stage. Myself, I keep swinging between wanting to get the latest MBA (the 15" model for the larger display), and just wanting to see how far my M1 MBA can go (as it's still going strong). The back-to-school promo didn't really appeal to me, and so I just bought a switch 2 console at the end of June instead.

My 2017 5k iMac still has no clear upgrade path, plus it's working fine as a web browser and YouTube machine for my dad. I already have the M4 iPad Pro; only question is whether the M5 iPad will come with 16gb ram standard or still 8gb ram (with 16gb ram reserved for the higher storage tiers).

I don't expect any changes to the form factor of the aforementioned devices either.

Maybe I will upgrade from my 13 pro max (see how it handles liquid glass), or maybe I won't. My Apple Watch is pretty new as well (series 10), but anyone who frequents the watch forum knows of the paint chipping issue I have with it (have already gotten it replaced twice). Maybe get an Apple TV if and when it gets refreshed, but I am also no longer subscribed to Apple Arcade, and I have the switch now for gaming (when I have the time).

I like my apple products and I love the overall ecosystem, yet I don't really feel compelled to upgrade. They just work, and I don't really need that much more out of them.

That leaves the Vision Pro as the last new product category, and I am also not able to use it without wearing contacts or getting corrective eye surgery (Apple apparently doesn't have lenses that suit my degree). I kinda have an idea what I would use it for, but I also don't think I would be comfortable using it around my parents (my mom especially hates the idea of it). Contrast this with my iPad, which I can use while in the living room with her while we are both watching tv and she's totally fine with it.

I do wonder what the M5 chip can do for the vision pro? Somewhat better battery life? I have not heard of anyone complain of performance issues, but perhaps just not enough people are actually using it to have a viable sample size?

Well I wasn't meaning to single you out with my comment regarding it being interesting that with five devices getting an M5, the one that everyone is talking about is the one some say is pointless. Curious, no? But I did enjoy reading about your various Apple devices. I am trying to learn what you already seem to know, dont be compelled to upgrade, but alas...I have a fairly constant stream of devices passing through.

Sorry to hear the AVP can't correct for your vision. I am pretty much blind without my glasses but I guess the prescription is more straight forward. The lenses work for me

But, back to my original comment, is anyone questioning what the M5 can do for any of the other devices, some of which have the m4? No, it's accepted they get upgraded. Sometimes upgrades are not for those that already own the device, but are thinking of buying. Buying an M2 these days seems.. well.. a tad old? What most people don't acknowledge is that the AVP is a fully functional computer in the same sense the iPad is. Not going to get dragged into the debate on what is a computer, but the point is the AVP is a tool and will benefit from the M5 the way the rest of its tools do.

 

[Bezbozny]

I was in your boat and after a few gyrations, I settled in on the Mac Studio - may I suggest you consider that. Once you upgrade ram and storage - it's a short jump top the Pro version of the mini, and for about 600 more you get more ram, and 2x GPU cores in the studio - plus superior cooling (compared to the Pro Mini model)

not sure what is the situation in the states, but in the UK the mac mini with M4 and 32BG RAM, 512GB is 1,199GBP while the mac studio with M4 max 36GB, 512GB is 2099. This is a substantial difference of 900GBP.

I am also due to upgrade my computer later this year or beginning of next, depending what new models will be available. I mostly do photo editing in lightroom and i do not think that the mac studio price difference will be justified on my usage.

 

[chucker23n1]

not sure what is the situation in the states, but in the UK the mac mini with M4 and 32BG RAM, 512GB is 1,199GBP while the mac studio with M4 max 36GB, 512GB is 2099. This is a substantial difference of 900GBP.

They said "Pro version".

An M4 Pro Mac mini with a similar config is either £1,399 for 24 GiB RAM, or £1,799 for 48. From that, the Studio offers less RAM, but more CPU cores, a much faster GPU, more ports, and 10 GigE, for £300.

And perhaps critically, the Studio has more thermal headroom.

If you find yourself needing that much RAM, odds are you want at least the M4 Pro.

I mostly do photo editing in lightroom and i do not think that the mac studio price difference will be justified on my usage.

In that case, the M4 Pro Mac mini may indeed be the sweet spot.