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Mac Classic HDD problem

B

BigLynx

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Feb 26, 2012
26
0
Poland
Hi,

My Classic works quite well excluding one problem: It's not possible to boot it from internal HDD. I am able to boot from FDD without problems. HDD seems to work. I tested the drive on PC based SCSI controller. No errors. Also low-level format was completed without any problems. But on MAC I am not able to force installation on HDD. "Installation 1" disk boots from FDD, then hangs for the while, reports "error 41" or "wrong address", and terminates installation.

Is there any special procedure to initiate HDD for installation or I should assume that SCSI on-board controller is damaged ?

Cheers
 
Capacitor failure

Between the ones on the motherboard to the analog board I would bet (as I have about 15 compact macs) that if it's not a software issue that the capacitors on the analog board, which is also the power supply are bad (the motherboard caps are bad also most likely due to age and use) and the hard drive is not getting consistent power to drive it.
 
tdiaz said:
It's usually pretty straight forward, and pretty forgiving.

Un-blessed system folder?

These steps are pretty much good for any system version:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21672
Click to expand...
In my case problem is more serious - HDD is not detected by the system

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havokalien said:
Between the ones on the motherboard to the analog board I would bet (as I have about 15 compact macs) that if it's not a software issue that the capacitors on the analog board, which is also the power supply are bad (the motherboard caps are bad also most likely due to age and use) and the hard drive is not getting consistent power to drive it.
Click to expand...
Hmm? HDD - phisicaly - seems to work as you may hear it. Also system boots from FDD without problems. Do you think that I should try to connect to HDD power from separate/external power supply (e.g. from a PC)?
 
Probably dead drive.

If it's not seen, even tho you hear the platters spin doesn't mean that scsi drive is working. It's probably dead. It is over twenty years old. You can try external power source to ease that of the power supply , but also remember caps on logic board and analog board will be on there way out and can cause many issues.
 
If the drive is spinning, and otherwise appears to be working.

(Spins up, reaches operating speed, makes a bit of head calibration noise and remains spinning)

Check the Pico Fuse. It's usually near the connector, and labeled "F1".

Since it's the only device, and the end of the bus internally, if the fuse is blown, it won't get terminator power.

Another way to check this if you've got no meter, but other SCSI stuff, is to put this drive somewhere else so that it's in the middle of a working, properly terminated bus. If it shows there, then it's very likely the terminator fuse, if the motherboard is otherwise working with other devices.
 
Sorry to state what might be obvious, but from reading your original post, I take it that you low-level formatted the drive on a windows PC.

After you fitted the drive to the Mac Classic, did you boot from "Disk Utilities" floppy and run "HD SC Setup" and click on the "Initialize" button ? If NOT, this would explain why it won't see the drive to run a system install.

Bear in mind that Low-Level format and/or "Initialize" will completely erase all data from the drive.
 
havokalien said:
If it's not seen, even tho you hear the platters spin doesn't mean that scsi drive is working. It's probably dead. It is over twenty years old. You can try external power source to ease that of the power supply , but also remember caps on logic board and analog board will be on there way out and can cause many issues.
Click to expand...
With external power supply problem is almost the same. The only difference is that installation procedure doesn't hangs up but disk is not visible and FDD is reported as the only one place to install system

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tdiaz said:
If the drive is spinning, and otherwise appears to be working.

(Spins up, reaches operating speed, makes a bit of head calibration noise and remains spinning)

Check the Pico Fuse. It's usually near the connector, and labeled "F1".

Since it's the only device, and the end of the bus internally, if the fuse is blown, it won't get terminator power.

Another way to check this if you've got no meter, but other SCSI stuff, is to put this drive somewhere else so that it's in the middle of a working, properly terminated bus. If it shows there, then it's very likely the terminator fuse, if the motherboard is otherwise working with other devices.
Click to expand...
Exactly like that: Spins up, reaches operating speed, makes a bit of head calibration noise and remains spinning. What Pico Fuse you have in mind? On main board or on disk? As I wrote - this disk is recognized and sucessfuly initiated by low-level format by PC based SCSI controller. BTW - I have this one - CP3040A http://www.alyon.org/InfosTechniques/informatique/drives/conner/misc/cp3040.html

----------
MacTech68 said:
Sorry to state what might be obvious, but from reading your original post, I take it that you low-level formatted the drive on a windows PC.

After you fitted the drive to the Mac Classic, did you boot from "Disk Utilities" floppy and run "HD SC Setup" and click on the "Initialize" button ? If NOT, this would explain why it won't see the drive to run a system install.

Bear in mind that Low-Level format and/or "Initialize" will completely erase all data from the drive.
Click to expand...
The behaviour of the disk before I made test with PC SCSI controller and after remains the same. The test I did only to check if disk is recognized by other system then my Mac in question. Of course that low-level format destroys whole logical disk contents but to run HD SC Setup HDD must be visible by the "Disk Utility" - it is not. As I wrote - error "41" or "address" error is generated when trying to run it.
 
OK, firstly, are you able to provide a pic of the drive or definitely say it has a sticker with an Apple symbol and "Hard Disk 40SC" on it?

Secondly, when you had it in the PC, after low-level formatting it, did you partition it with fdisk or some other utility on the PC? If yes, put it back into the PC and low-level format it again and stop there. Disconnect it and put it back into the Mac.

Thirdly, is the SCSI connector on the drive a boxed, keyed header. Some Conner hard drives just had a bare 50 pin header with no keying, and it was possible to put the SCSI cable on up-side down.

Fourth, what "Disk Tools" floppy are you using? System 6.?.? System 7.0, 7.1 ?
Are you able to get a new/different Disk Tools floppy?

And lastly, to confirm, the error 41 occurs when booting the floppy. Meaning that you are never able to double click on Apple HD SC Setup ?

Some pics of the drive fitted to the classic might help to identify any problems. Also a pic of the jumpers on the front end of the drive too.
 
MacTech68 said:
OK, firstly, are you able to provide a pic of the drive or definitely say it has a sticker with an Apple symbol and "Hard Disk 40SC" on it?
Click to expand...
Yes - this seems to be original Apple HDD:

macintosh_classic_hdd.jpg


MacTech68 said:
Secondly, when you had it in the PC, after low-level formatting it, did you partition it with fdisk or some other utility on the PC? If yes, put it back into the PC and low-level format it again and stop there. Disconnect it and put it back into the Mac.
Click to expand...

No - only SCSI controller firmware was used for low-level formatting

MacTech68 said:
Thirdly, is the SCSI connector on the drive a boxed, keyed header. Some Conner hard drives just had a bare 50 pin header with no keying, and it was possible to put the SCSI cable on up-side down.
Click to expand...
no - in case of this HDD it is not possible to plug wire from not correct side. Only one option is possible

MacTech68 said:
Fourth, what "Disk Tools" floppy are you using? System 6.?.? System 7.0, 7.1 ?
Are you able to get a new/different Disk Tools floppy?
Click to expand...

System 7. I am not sure about exact version number. But the real problem is that I am not able to boot Disk Tools with HDD connected to internal power supply and on board controller. It ends with "wrong address error". If HDD is not connected or connected to external power supply - FDD boots till very end but HD SC Setup doesn't detect HDD

I also own CDs with System 8 and System 9 but for PCC

MacTech68 said:
And lastly, to confirm, the error 41 occurs when booting the floppy. Meaning that you are never able to double click on Apple HD SC Setup ?
Click to expand...
if hard drive is connected to internal power supply and internal controller - yes
Boot procedure stops for the while - probably trying to find HD - and then stops with error.

MacTech68 said:
Some pics of the drive fitted to the classic might help to identify any problems. Also a pic of the jumpers on the front end of the drive too.
Click to expand...

Here it is:

hdd_board.jpg


screen.jpg
 
That "blue" thing that says .1A on it, right near the center terminator resistor pack, is the term fuse. Those drives are also.. failure prone. But you say it spins up and stays spinning after coming "ready". As the only drive on the bus, that needs to be working and those terminator resistors installed.

As shown, that's set to SCSI ID 0. Jumpers E1, E2, E3.

E1 = 1
E2 = 2
E3 = 4

Add the appropriate value to select the desired SCSI ID, with no jumpers is 6, all jumpers is 7. The computer is 7, so don't use that. The default is 6 for internal drives as shipped by Apple. Jumper installed on E2 and E3.
 
One final thought, I assume you've tried booting with extensions disabled by holding the shift key on bootup?

Otherwise, with the HD and keyboard & mouse connected and whilst booting from a floppy, check the +5V rail and +12v rail - you can check these at the HD power connector.

If the +5V rail falls to less than 4.95V then that could be your problem.

In the middle of the Classic Analog board (about where the CRT PCB cables are soldered) is a small black trimpot (See pic below). Usually, Apple doesn't note adjusting this but you may be able to tweak it if necessary.


:eek: --- USUAL DISCLAIMER --- :eek:
BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL - there are lethal voltages on that board! Especially the heatsink to the right.

Double check the +12v rail and +5v rail - make sure the +12v rail doesn't exceed 12.2 volts. If you can't achieve this within the range of the trimpot, you may need to repair the analog board. :(

If making the adjustment is difficult (ie the voltage jumps wildly) you may need to replace the trimpot. It's value should be marked in the usual fashion. I've had many of these voltage adjust trimpots fail over the years causing very strange issues with the voltage going very high and then very low when they fail.

If the screen looks strange after making the adjustment, you may need to perform the video and geometry adjustments from the rear of the analog board. Take care with these trimpots as they are vertical mounted and can be bent to the point of breaking. To do these adjustments, do a google search for:

classic_ii.performa_200

and follow the methods outlined therein.
 

Attachments

  • Classic Volt Adj.jpg
    Classic Volt Adj.jpg
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tdiaz said:
That "blue" thing that says .1A on it, right near the center terminator resistor pack, is the term fuse. Those drives are also.. failure prone. But you say it spins up and stays spinning after coming "ready". As the only drive on the bus, that needs to be working and those terminator resistors installed.

As shown, that's set to SCSI ID 0. Jumpers E1, E2, E3.

E1 = 1
E2 = 2
E3 = 4

Add the appropriate value to select the desired SCSI ID, with no jumpers is 6, all jumpers is 7. The computer is 7, so don't use that. The default is 6 for internal drives as shipped by Apple. Jumper installed on E2 and E3.
Click to expand...

Actually, I thought the default was SCSI ID zero?
 
Error 41 has nothing to do with the hard drive.

The error is not hard drive. I would check for capacitor leak/corrosion on the motherboard. Clean and recap as needed. The drive may be bad but it would boot off the floppy regardless. The fact it errors out makes it sound like capacitor goo bridging connections on the motherboard and maybe even the scsi chip. The classic and LC series are by far the worst for this.

Good luck
 
tdiaz said:
That "blue" thing that says .1A on it, right near the center terminator resistor pack, is the term fuse. Those drives are also.. failure prone. But you say it spins up and stays spinning after coming "ready". As the only drive on the bus, that needs to be working and those terminator resistors installed.

As shown, that's set to SCSI ID 0. Jumpers E1, E2, E3.

E1 = 1
E2 = 2
E3 = 4

Add the appropriate value to select the desired SCSI ID, with no jumpers is 6, all jumpers is 7. The computer is 7, so don't use that. The default is 6 for internal drives as shipped by Apple. Jumper installed on E2 and E3.
Click to expand...

Frankly speaking I am not sure. According to http://www.alyon.org/InfosTechniques/informatique/drives/conner/misc/cp3040.html SCSI ID on my DISK is 0. Is that OK or not?

Also I have problems to locate fuse. I see a lot of small blue resistor and one big black roller with blue description .1A - but disk is working therefore this is not rather fuse issue
 
havokalien said:
The error is not hard drive. I would check for capacitor leak/corrosion on the motherboard. Clean and recap as needed. The drive may be bad but it would boot off the floppy regardless. The fact it errors out makes it sound like capacitor goo bridging connections on the motherboard and maybe even the scsi chip. The classic and LC series are by far the worst for this.

Good luck
Click to expand...
Error 41 is not the only one. As I wrote also "address" error is generated. Once 41 other time "address".

address_error.jpg


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MacTech68 said:
One final thought, ...
Click to expand...

BTW - may main board battery (3.6V) condition have impact on this problem?
 
BigLynx said:
...BTW - may main board battery (3.6V) condition have impact on this problem?
Click to expand...

Unlikely as it may seem (unless it's leaked in which case YES) it won't hurt to remove the 3.6v battery and leave the machine off for a few hours.

The date & time will reset to default values (as well as some other settings).

Some Macs have a habit of corrupting PRAM settings when the battery goes flat, hence the suggestion to remove it.
 
MacTech68 said:
One final thought, I assume you've tried booting with extensions disabled by holding the shift key on bootup?

Otherwise, with the HD and keyboard & mouse connected and whilst booting from a floppy, check the +5V rail and +12v rail - you can check these at the HD power connector.

If the +5V rail falls to less than 4.95V then that could be your problem.
Click to expand...

OK - here as it is:

* 4.85V on external FDD slot (with HD connected), 4.89V on HD plug
* 11.86 - 11.89V on external FDD slot with HDD connected and 11.79V without HDD

but ..... when I attached HDD to external (digital from PC) power supply I had exactly the same issues. Is that really problem of voltage on Classic?
 
Heads

The hard drive is done most likely.

My only concern is the error your having booting from floppy should not happen wether the hard drive works or not.
 
Any idea then what is wrong? Voltage? Hdd? Let me say this again. With hdd disconnected I am able to boot system without errors and even install it on fresh floppy
 
I've had boot bombs like that when bad hard drives or screwed up SCSI chains were present.

That's why I suggested the term fuse. Just because the drive is spinning, coming ready, and even if it were working elsewhere, doesn't mean that fuse can't be bad.

If that drive is the only device there, it's the end of the chain, and needs to be properly terminated.

Maybe it works someplace else as an only device.

That's SCSI voodoo. :)

As for the boot bomb, bad drives, drives with parody on, conflicting IDs, crappy cables, etc. have all done that kind of thing. Something isn't right.
 
tdiaz said:
I've had boot bombs like that when bad hard drives or screwed up SCSI chains were present.

That's why I suggested the term fuse. Just because the drive is spinning, coming ready, and even if it were working elsewhere, doesn't mean that fuse can't be bad.
Click to expand...
May I try with other HD - not Apple specific but 50pin SCSI? In other words - is 40SC the only supported HD?
 
Pretty much any 50 pin drive will work. There's a slight few that don't.

However .. you may not be able to format them with Apple's utility unless you're using a patched version.

Or a third party formatting utility.

Anubis, Silverlining, FWB HD Toolkit..

If you have ResEdit on a disk, you can patch that HDSetup utility pretty easily..
 
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