Mac Mini Refresh Soon?

[AidenShaw]

What do you think about the rumours that a single socket Conroe thanks to it´s superior memory handling effiency (~70%?) compared to Xeons DB-Dimm´s lousy (~25?) might crush a dual socket Xeon in memory intesive tasks, like photoshop.

Have you heard seen any data on that one,exept the specuatlion on Anandtech?

It's nonsense, frankly.

It is speculation (or FUD) based on a single facet of the system design, without considering all of the factors that affect real application performance. (Remember when Apple was whining about the horrible "pipeline bubble" problem with the Pentium - meanwhile Pentiums and Xeons were benchmarking just fine against the Apples?)

Dell has submitted SPEC results for Woodcrest and Conroe systems, and they're virtually the same - with a very slight advantage to Conroe.

    System         CPU                  GHz     Cores   Sockets CINT    CFP    CINTRate CFPRate
PowerEdge 1950  Xeon  5110              1.60    4       2       1772    1719     72.0   60.9
PowerEdge 1950  Xeon  5120              1.86    4       2       1974    1979     82.1   65.0
PowerEdge 1950  Xeon  5130              2.00    4       2       2154    2130     88.6   71.2
PowerEdge 1950  Xeon  5140              2.33    4       2       2394    2451    101.0   75.9
PowerEdge 1950  Xeon  5150              2.66    4       2       2615    2761    111.0   79.8
PowerEdge 1950  Xeon  5160              3.00    4       2       2818    3061    120.0*  83.4

PrecWrkstn 390  Core 2 Duo  E6300       1.86    2       1       1978    1939     39.5   35.0
PrecWrkstn 390  Core 2 Duo  E6400       2.13    2       1       2168    2187     44.0   37.1
PrecWrkstn 390  Core 2 Duo  E6600       2.40    2       1       2497    2588     53.7   43.9
PrecWrkstn 390  Core 2 Duo  E6700       2.66    2       1       2673    2844     58.7   45.6
PrecWrkstn 390  Core 2 Extreme  X6800   2.93    2       1       2872    3108     63.5   47.9

                                                                                 * PE1955
        INT = "CINT2000"   CFP = "CFP2000"

http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/res2006q3/
PE 1950 specs (5000X chipset, like the ProMacIntel)
PW 390 specs (975X chipset)​

The Xeon 5160 is faster than any Core 2 Duo.

Note that CINT/CFP are single thread tests, and the two "Rate" tests are multi-threaded (so you see the quad core Woody at about double the dual core Conroe).

Also note that CFP is a *very* heavy memory test - you can't get a good FP score with a lousy memory system.

Clearly the faster bus speed that FB-DIMMs can use compensates for the "lousy efficiency".

Any idea if the upcoming products (CS3 for example) might find a way to utilize the FB-Dims more efficiently, or is the problems so prevalent,that it cant be overcome with anything?

One point with FB-DIMMs is to reduce the number of FB-DIMMs that you use. 8 GiB with four 2 GiB FB-DIMMs will be slightly faster than 8 GiB with eight 1 GiB FB-DIMMs. Very slightly faster.

Apple definately wouldn want a cheaper/weaker product to equal or crush it´s workstations in any area. Let alone on one that is considered it is pride,DTP.

There were a number of areas where the late G3 systems were faster than the new G4 systems - only on AltiVec apps was the G4 clearly better. The speed advantage of the Conroe is much less than the G3 had.

In addition, the Woody will crush the Conroe on any app that can use more than two cores.

Because that might be the deathblow to the Pizza-Mac.

Don't worry, the New Form-Factor Conroe Mini-Tower/Home-Theatre Mac® will be here soon.

 

[50548]

Hehehe...we have some true believers here...

Mini Tower Mac = PowerBook G5 anyone?

 

[Evangelion]

Folks need to be careful when making G5 to Conroe/etc. comparisons....

The PPC 970FX (single core G5 which was in the iMac G5) has a TDP below that of a Conroe.

FX was used in the xServe, and they couldn't get dual-core CPU in there. As soon as they moved to woodcrest, they could replace that 2x G5 with 2x dual-core Woodcrests. Says quite a bit about how hot they run....

 

[AidenShaw]

Or they didn't care to upgrade...

FX was used in the xServe, and they couldn't get dual-core CPU in there. As soon as they moved to woodcrest, they could replace that 2x G5 with 2x dual-core Woodcrests.

Says quite a bit about how hot they run....

Perhaps, but you can find the much hotter Xeon Netburst chips (much hotter than the 970 dual core) in 1U systems (and even blades) from other companies.

It wasn't that "the dual core 970 was too hot for a 1U", but that Apple decided against coming out with a dual-core Xserve. (Since they knew that Intel was coming, it might not have been worth the engineering changes needed for the dual core...)

 

[Eidorian]

Watch the WWDC keynote and note that the xserves now use Woodcrest which has a higher TDP than Conroe (95W compared to 65W). Also note what they say about Woodcrest having a better thermal environment that the G5's they were using before which were the same G5's (non-dual core) that the iMac used I believe. Conroe has better thermal characteristics than G5's, the Mac Pro and xserve prove that.

iMac will get Conroe. 2.4Ghz and 2.66Ghz. Conroe is the best value for performance processor that Intel are offering, so they need to use it SOMEWHERE in their lineup.

Err...I was defending that Conroe could fit in the iMac. Especially having the G5 in there. (Woodcrest's TDP is 85W by the way...)

And look here

 

[AidenShaw]

How about noise?

Err...I was defending that Conroe could fit in the iMac. Especially having the G5 in there.

Could the deciding factor be the noise?

Not arguing about whether a Conroe would fit in the iMacIntel case - but wondering whether the extra heat would result in extra noise from the cooling fans.

The iMacIntel doesn't have to as fast as it possibly can, especially since the New Form-Factor Conroe Mini-Tower/Home-Theatre Mac® will be there for people who want a bit more power without the size and cost of the maxi-tower ProMacIntel.

 

[WildPalms]

Don't worry, the New Form-Factor Conroe Mini-Tower/Home-Theatre Mac® will be here soon.

Gee, you'd want to be damn sure of that announcement next Tuesday or risk looking like a complete idiot. We shall soon see..

 

[Eidorian]

Could the deciding factor be the noise?

Not arguing about whether a Conroe would fit in the iMacIntel case - but wondering whether the extra heat would result in extra noise from the cooling fans.

The iMacIntel doesn't have to as fast as it possibly can, especially since the New Form-Factor Conroe Mini-Tower/Home-Theatre Mac® will be there for people who want a bit more power without the size and cost of the maxi-tower ProMacIntel.

Noise could be an issue in the iMac. Still, even the Rev. C iMac G5 was much quieter then the Rev. B.

The only noise my iMac Core Duo makes is when it wakes from sleep and reading the SuperDrive.

 

[50548]

Gee, you'd want to be damn sure of that announcement next Tuesday or risk looking like a complete idiot. We shall soon see..

Mr. Shaw is pronouncing this since late 2005...so no surprises here...

 

[skeep5]

Like this?

gawd i hope i don't get banned for that!

uhm.... ok.

 

[MacinDoc]

IDon't worry, the New Form-Factor Conroe Mini-Tower/Home-Theatre Mac® will be here soon.

Wow, Aiden, you sound pretty confident about that. Do you know something that the rest of us don't? (It would make sense, however, to have a mid-range single Conroe-based desktop.)

 

[Multimedia]

USA HD Penetratoin is 20% • Projected To Be 59% By 2010

A Little OT but mini TV related: Someone here made a post I can't find that said the EyeTV hybrid HDTV tuner was only relevant to less than 5% of the market. So I did a little Google and found out we are already at 20% HD penetration in USA. So I thought I'd just let you all know the Mac mini as an HDTV + Tivo with a 24" display can be set up for about $1300. With the cheapest Dual Link DVI 15" MBP you can find would drive a 30" display for a total of about $2900 soon.

I have a 2GHz Dual Core G5 that can support a 30" Display only paid $900 for. When Dell puts the 30" up on the 20% off block it will only cost $1900 - $380 = $1520. So we are looking at Mac TVs in the 24" - 30" size for as little as $1450 - $2500. That seems pretty amazing to me.

$599 Mac mini Core 2 Duo + EyeTV hybrid $150 + 24" Dell $700 (20% off Sale Price) = $1450 new.

Used any solo or dual G5 PM with a Dual Link Video Card + 30" Dell $1520 (20% off Sale Price) = $2500 or less.

 

[AidenShaw]

Is Apple going to blow off the HTPC market?

Wow, Aiden, you sound pretty confident about that. Do you know something that the rest of us don't? (It would make sense, however, to have a mid-range single Conroe-based desktop.)

It's not that I know anything - it's just that it's so bloody obvious that nothing in Apple's current lineup is even remotely suitable for a home theater PC....

However, a Conroe in a DVD-player sized case, with 2 or 3 500GB or 750GB drives, a couple of TV tuners (SD and HD), FrontRow on steroids - then you'd have something.

Take a peek at what available in Windows for the Home Theatre space - like: http://www.acedigitalhome.com/limited.htm

Conroes with quad TV tuners, RAID, touch-screen controls....

 

[Multimedia]

Wow! The ACE Digital Home System Looks Great!

It's not that I know anything - it's just that it's so bloody obvious that nothing in Apple's current lineup is even remotely suitable for a home theater PC....

However, a Conroe in a DVD-player sized case, with 2 or 3 500GB or 750GB drives, a couple of TV tuners (SD and HD), FrontRow on steroids - then you'd have something.

Take a peek at what available in Windows for the Home Theatre space - like: http://www.acedigitalhome.com/limited.htm

Conroes with quad TV tuners, RAID, touch-screen controls....

Holy Molly! That look fantastic! How much money are they?

 

[poppe]

I still think FrontRow need to be improved drastically before it goes to a Media Center like thing. Great first attempt, but I still thing there is room for improvement...

 

[tedrjr03]

I hope that this is all true because i plan on picking up a new intelimac or mini.

 

[ScubaDuc]

A better question is: when does the LCD OR the computer die, especially in the case of Macs? I would say never...

Sorry to disappoint you but even Apple screens do die....My Apple LCD did about a month before Applecare expired. They lost it and I had to wait 7 weeks for a replacement. Mind u, it did die so beautifully...a few flickers and then there was peace

 

[mterlouw]

Or, more likely, when the computer is obsolete you have a good screen that you can't use.

Apple needs something between the horribly constrained MiniMac, and the preposterously huge ProMac.

I agree. I have a 20" widescreen, and don't see a need to replace that any time soon. Over on the PC side, "they" are going to try and push you into upgrading if you want to watch hi-def content, as they will restrict playback to monitors that support HDCP. I guess Apple can try and entice you with a built-in iSight or semi-forced bundling of monitors with the iMac. But really, a good monitor can last you through at least two computers, so why waste the money?

 

[Kashchei]

finally a rumor!

after weeks of speculation on the forums, a front page rumor feels fact!

holding my thumbs for a conroe imac! (a swedish expression...i think?)

"Hold your thumbs" is a French expression as well. I had no ideas the Swedes held their thumbs as well, but I'll be doing the same thing since I can't wait to see the new minis as well.

 

[Kashchei]

the new intel integrated graphics isn't ready, is it? So these will be merom minis with a GMA 950?

This is the $64K question. Does anyone know when the X3000 is due to be released?

 

[Pressure]

Err...I was defending that Conroe could fit in the iMac. Especially having the G5 in there. (Woodcrest's TDP is 85W by the way...)

And look here

Remember that TDP is for the highest clocked chip (3.0Ghz). The rest of the family sits at 65W TDP, like the Conroe.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

This is the $64K question. Does anyone know when the X3000 is due to be released?

True, with it the mini is a solid little machine, without it it still lacks graphics. Its coming soon because Intel wants to take away $$$ from nvidia & ati.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

If they bring out a core2duo mac mini it will be faster than my 18month old power mac.

cant see it happening, they might go for a faster core duo in the mac mini and macbook then core 2 duo in iMac and Macbook pro

I would have said the same about the Mac Mini getting a Core Duo about 10 months ago.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

This is the $64K question. Does anyone know when the X3000 is due to be released?

I was under the impression when the Core 2 Duos were released, but I hope very soon because they are a measurable improvement over the GMA950 which isn't as bad as everyone make it out to be.

 

[ergle2]

I was under the impression when the Core 2 Duos were released, but I hope very soon because they are a measurable improvement over the GMA950 which isn't as bad as everyone make it out to be.

The benchmarks I've seen suggest that it's in fact slower.

Take a look at http://www.pconline.com.cn/market/sh/shoppingguide/changshang/0608/844892.html

The Inquirer - I know, that bastion of rumor-mongering and unfounded allegation - has been reporting that OEMs are saying "it sucks".

Maybe this will be sorted out in later steppings, but these were awfully recent revsions...