Mac OS 9 and Powerbooks

[MacRumors]

While there was some indication that Mac OS 9 booting would be spared until mid-2003, with Apple's release of the 12" and 17" Powerbooks, Steve Jobs made it pretty clear that these new machines would not boot OS 9 during his keynote speech.

PowerPage provided some further details from a user who had spoken with some of the Apple staff:

After talking to four different Apple staff / officials, they all said that the new powerbooks will NOT be able to boot into OS 9 whether it be from internal drive, external drive (firewire/usb), or CD-ROM. This has got to do with the boot firmware being "slimmed down" and optimized for OSX performance (e.g. booting?). Unable to perform the tests myself without getting into trouble.

 

[insidedanshead]

It is going to need to happen sometime though.. but I know as a design professional there are some things we still need to boot into 9 for... (i.e. printing)

 

[springscansing]

Hey.. Apple had to do it sometime. Now.. I use OS 9 daily for audio work, Classic doesn't cut it. So does this mean I can't get a new powerbook? Yep. Am I disappointed? No way.

 

[Choppaface]

why exactly does apple need to do this? to get more money out of people? so much for optimum photoshop performance, using any functional yet not modern scanner, printing with proper color controls, etc etc.... at least you can still get a 1ghz model that will do it... hopefully there will be some sort of hack. why not just wait until the next hardware update? :\

 

[arn]

Originally posted by Choppaface
why exactly does apple need to do this? to get more money out of people?

It's to push developers to port to OS X.
It costs money for apple to support OS 9.

This will force developers to move. It's a strategic reason....

arn

 

[locovaca]

Originally posted by Choppaface
why exactly does apple need to do this? to get more money out of people? so much for optimum photoshop performance, using any functional yet not modern scanner, printing with proper color controls, etc etc.... at least you can still get a 1ghz model that will do it... hopefully there will be some sort of hack. why not just wait until the next hardware update? :\

FW2, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth, GF4 Go... what more hardware do you need updated before you can call it such? Just because YOU don't have a laptop or an interest in one doesn't mean this isn't a major hardware update, 'cause it is.

 

[dethl]

You know....

The education part of the Apple store offers the ability to boot into OS 9 and X until the end of June. Only eMac, iBook, and CRT iMacs are involved with this promotion.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Dual 1.25GHz PowerMacs will continue to boot OS 9 till June 2003 too.

However, no new 2003 model wil boot OS 9. Apple only said that they were going to continue to offer select 2002 models with OS 9 booting till June 2003.

 

[Computer_Phreak]

Originally posted by arn


It's to push developers to port to OS X.
It costs money for apple to support OS 9.

This will force developers to move. It's a strategic reason....

arn

also due to the fact that the os 9 boot roms take up space and are too complex to continue supporting.

 

[voicegy]

Re: You know....

Originally posted by dethl
The education part of the Apple store offers the ability to boot into OS 9 and X until the end of June. Only eMac, iBook, and CRT iMacs are involved with this promotion.

Yes, thank goodness for that. Our Apple rep contacted me in November to gather data regarding problems that schools may encounter if forced to boot in X only, and I gave him a lot of reasons to extend this. Heck, there's machines out there runnin' 7.6.1, 8.6 and 9.0.3 and lots of little software that some schools count on to run on those older platforms. Apple realized that.

I don't know how much buyin' will be going on here in California schools for the foreseeable future, though. Y'all may have heard that the state is 30 odd billion in debt...trickled down, that means my district alone has been hit with 60 million less this year and next year. The cuts of personnel have already begun...

 

[alset]

Originally posted by Choppaface
why exactly does apple need to do this? to get more money out of people? so much for optimum photoshop performance, using any functional yet not modern scanner, printing with proper color controls, etc etc.... at least you can still get a 1ghz model that will do it... hopefully there will be some sort of hack. why not just wait until the next hardware update? :\

Try looking at it as Apple saving development costs. I still use 9 for some apps, myself. It's a shame that I have to put up with the hassle, but maybe this will encourage the stragglers to push their apps a little further.

Remember how pissed everyone was when Apple released G3s that didn't support Serial and SCSI? Now you have external devices that support USB and FireWire. Apple wasn't first to market with USB, but they were the first company to make it the only option. I say we should thank them.

Dan

 

[rainman::|:|]

lets face it, 9 is dead in apple's eyes and moving on can only make sense. i realize a lot of people have older peripherals, but they probably have done a peripheral life-cycle study to determine the best time for most users to be able to support X exclusively. And as for programs, complaining that a lot of 9 apps haven't been ported to X, and then complaining when Apple moves to push developers *to* port to X, doesn't make a lot of sense. whenever you make a big change like this, there's going to be a period of hardship, but in the end everything works out much better than before.


pnw

 

[skotmiller]

You couldn't pay me to use OS 9. I just hope MOTU updates real soon. I feel bad for my friends. As for Quark, already replaced

.SKOT

 

[macomposer]

Education, OS9, and the economy

Originally posted by voicegy


I don't know how much buyin' will be going on here in California schools for the foreseeable future, though. Y'all may have heard that the state is 30 odd billion in debt...trickled down, that means my district alone has been hit with 60 million less this year and next year. The cuts of personnel have already begun...

Yeah, such budget problems are everywhere. I administrate a music technology lab in a large public university (one of the 10 largest in the country, in fact), and what are we using? A dozen 333MHz old-school CRT iMacs, maxed out at 288MB RAM and mired in OS9.

With the current economic situation, there's no chance of getting the $15K needed to load the lab with fresh new machines capable of functioning efficiently in OS X. Nonetheless, we are totally committed to the Mac platform because of the software we use (Pro Tools, Max/MSP, Finale, etc.) Of course, beyond the expense of new machines, is the cost of new software to make the switch to X. We're screwed.

It's not our fault, and it's not Apple's fault, and least of all the developers' fault, that our loyalty to Macs keeps us working in OS9. It's the fault of the state legislature and our hellish economy. I've gladly made the jump to X on my personal machines, as have the rest of our music technology faculty.

Continuing support of OS9 in the education sector is a wise move by Apple, as long as the economy is s***.

 

[Arcady]

Re: Education, OS9, and the economy

Originally posted by macomposer


A dozen 333MHz old-school CRT iMacs, maxed out at 288MB RAM and mired in OS9.

How can your iMacs be "maxed out" when they don't have the 512MB RAM required to do so? You know the lower 32MB SO-DIMM is removeable, right?

 

[Kheraha]

Upgrade path....

I too admire the stance taken by Apple as far as booting only into X goes, however, there is a little problem with that for some of us. I, along with many others upgraded to X from 9 and with that ugrade, I also upgraded many of my apps. Sadly, many of these X upgrades (apps) need the original 9 version to be on the drive before they will load etc - now I realise that some can be loaded through Classic and that Office X has a workaround for this, but what about those apps that need the full 9 version and cant be loaded through Classic - I'm thinking of FCP for a start and DVD SP. FCP3 upgrade needs you to have FCP2 installed fully in order to load - however, this cant be done through Classic - so where does that leave the likes of me? I've actually just ordered the 17 inch PowerBook, does it mean I now need to buy a full verson of FCP (or Express) as well as have my upgrades? Are there any workarounds for this? I also have a full suite of Adobe apps that are the upgrades (PS7, ID2, Ill10 etc). Anybody have any views on this?

Kheraha

 

[Telomar]

Re: Upgrade path....

Originally posted by Kheraha
I too admire the stance taken by Apple as far as booting only into X goes, however, there is a little problem with that for some of us. I, along with many others upgraded to X from 9 and with that ugrade, I also upgraded many of my apps. Sadly, many of these X upgrades (apps) need the original 9 version to be on the drive before they will load etc - now I realise that some can be loaded through Classic and that Office X has a workaround for this, but what about those apps that need the full 9 version and cant be loaded through Classic - I'm thinking of FCP for a start and DVD SP. FCP3 upgrade needs you to have FCP2 installed fully in order to load - however, this cant be done through Classic - so where does that leave the likes of me? I've actually just ordered the 17 inch PowerBook, does it mean I now need to buy a full verson of FCP (or Express) as well as have my upgrades? Are there any workarounds for this? I also have a full suite of Adobe apps that are the upgrades (PS7, ID2, Ill10 etc). Anybody have any views on this?

If you have another comp you can network them and do it that way but I would suggest talking to Apple about one. They probably didn't think much about that unfortunately.

 

[Trekkie]

Sorry, But I'm happy.

I really feel for the schools that can't upgrade due to costs and the current dismal lack of funding from every state. I live in Kansas and the words CUT and EDUCATION are used every five seconds around here.

Funny how you never hear CUT and ELECTED PERSON salary, you only here the regular worker and the kids getting bent over, but that's another discussion.

I'm very happy OS X is moving forward, but then, I'm not a lifelong mac user, I've just recently switched to Mac OS X (hey, ads worked) in July of 2002.

However, I did use/service Macintosh machines from '94 - '97 so I do remember and love Mac OS 6 (back when it was just Macintosh), OS 7, 7.5, and 8. I remember when 8 came out, dragging folders over one to copy and they just opened. Very cool (heh)

I really hope this forces the vendors out there on the fence to move forward with OS X. I am a unix geek and a server admin by trade so I really am comfortable with the Unix underpinnings of OS X and I have fun getting server programs such as Apache, Tomcat, MySQL to run on my powerbook. (g4 550).

I'm trying to convince the wife the 12" is for me. I love the 15" screen but it doesn't fit well in my camera backpak, and the 5 hr battery life of the Apple machines vs. the 1.1 hr battery life I seem to get with Intel machines (Use a Thinkpad for work) makes me just love this platform.

Though the lack of the PCMCIA card is disturbing. How am I going to easily (easily = no 6 ft cord to go 1 ft) copy my Microdrives from my camera over?? Where is my bluetooth CF reader!

 

[locovaca]

Re: Sorry, But I'm happy.

Originally posted by Trekkie
Though the lack of the PCMCIA card is disturbing. How am I going to easily (easily = no 6 ft cord to go 1 ft) copy my Microdrives from my camera over?? Where is my bluetooth CF reader!

You should go with a Firewire CF reader- it actually exists, and would be infinitely faster than one that worked on bluetooth. You'll see the same speeds as with a PCMCIA reader. Take a look at this one

 

[NitroPye]

Originally posted by springscansing
Hey.. Apple had to do it sometime. Now.. I use OS 9 daily for audio work, Classic doesn't cut it. So does this mean I can't get a new powerbook? Yep. Am I disappointed? No way.

Blaim lack of osx apps ported over or rewritten on the developers... they are being a touch sluggish on the switch , hence why the lack of os9 booting, if as soon as osx came out all apps were brought over then apple would have no need to do this

 

[PsiFire]

Don't Forget the Switchers

I think part of this OS X push is aslo for the switchers.

Honestly I'm new to the Mac as of this last June. I saw OS X and fell in love with it, not to mention the stylish white case and perfect size of the small iBook.

To be Frank, OS 9 always confused me. So I tend to spend as little time in it as possible, only having Classic activte when I install a game here and there and booting into OS 9 once, when the Sims install disc was being odd. I know a good lot of other people like me, who broke their teeth onto Macs in OS X only. While I understand a sizable portion of the userbase needs 9 for profession functioning; on the other side of the coin are the millions of little guys like me who want to keep things as simple as possible. That's what X does. X is amazingly simple and provides a more intutavie interface for those of us with no Mac experience.

While developers may be slow to catch on, weary of change and what it means in this economy, applications for the Education and Professional market may be slow in coming. But this is the chance that is taken when a company ,like Apple, stands on the edge of innovation always pushing forward.

 

[gotohamish]

I think Apple is going to keep the other macs available, but try to lure them with the very cool new hardware.

The existing 1.25 machine is the last of the current connectivity of powermacs - aside from faster ethernet, the connectivity is the same at the very first G4s - this will not se so with the next wave (bluetooth, FireWire800 etc) so come May/June when people think they should play it safe and get the 9-compatible machine - they will feel even worse about it as the 'current' proper PowerMac offerings will show SO MUCH more life - it might force them to upgrade to X.

I hope so anyway!

 

[MasterX (OSiX)]

If a slimmer ROM makes the machines faster in OSX I can see an advantage to the consumer immediately.

If all macs boot into OSX, those "laggards" will be forced to recode (not actually that hard to go to Carbon, from what I hear) or give up (which would be the BAD thing).

Apple has had all the tools needed to get your apps working in OSX since 1999 with the developer previews. I know something like MOTU must be huge, but how many YEARS does it take? IMHO I think most developers seem to want to push OSX as a feature, not a patch (which was done in the early 10.0/pre-10.0 days.)

I know a lot of people use apps which used to be popular, or never were and are just less expensive, and others use apps which weren't supported for a while.

As for the upgrade thing, since you're only allowed one running installed copy of Apple's software there's no reason for them to make pirating FCP easier. Perhaps (like Adobe) you can put in the origional CD for FCP2? I don't know. Personally I was waiting for FCP4, but FCE fits my needs, so I'll be putting down the $149 for the educational version any day now.

It's too bad the OSX transition will leave some people REALLY in the dust, especially the niche markets. Will there be a MacOS X driver for an Iris or Gclay pritner? I dunno, they charge $10,000 per unit, so you would think so.....

As for the printers not having correct color control (and in my experience with my EPSON lack of edge-to-edge printing) i think it's a driver issue now. In OS9 the drivers were much harder to code, but some people (EPSON in particular) took it upon themselves to write speciailized drivers for OSX, not ideal, but they work. As for scanners, I don't know what you're talking about. Jaguar has a finalized version of TWAIN in it, so it's the same deal as with OS9 to make drivers. In my Epson 2450's case the built-in drivers would be better if they supported the TPU. Too bad, I'll have to use Epson's downloadable drivers for a while now.

Hopefully OSX-only booting will help us see those people with software/hardware which won't work in Classic working to create a real OSX-transition plan.

 

[locovaca]

It's no different than when Microsoft switched to the NT/2k codebase for XP- it forced many companies who were lazy and relied on only 98/ME drivers to update them for 2k/XP. I have a WinTV card that was just atrocious under 2k, and they ignored user's pleas for a proper driver that would make tv watching bearable. But, when Microsoft said, "No more, you will write XP drivers," they finally got their act together. Some people may kick and scream, but in the end, it's the kick in the butt most companies need.

 

[macomposer]

Re: Re: Education, OS9, and the economy

Originally posted by Arcady


How can your iMacs be "maxed out" when they don't have the 512MB RAM required to do so? You know the lower 32MB SO-DIMM is removeable, right?

Sorry, that was sloppy late-night writing on my part. We've reached our effective maximum RAM for the same reason we are stuck in OS9: lack of money. According to Crucial and other RAM sites, the 256MB chips are going for nearly $100 each, will little in the way of an education discount to help. Still, with the current economic situation, we could not get them if they were only $10 each.

In fact, one of the iMacs has a dead hard drive, and we've been going through war trying to get $75 to get it replaced. The administration does not want to spend money in upgrades or repairs on old technology that should be replaced soon, yet they also give no assurances that it actually will be replaced.

I guess I am supposed to just reach into my butt and pull out hard drives and RAM. The only guy I ever saw do that was Data on Star Trek.