Mac OS 9 Support until June?

[.a]

i was wondering why quark still exists - adobe has the better software and is doing very aggressive marketing - quark MUST have a lot of loyal customers and Jobs' job will be to confince them to move over to osX and not buying xp-boxes. so delay to june03 is not really a big deal. if apple can provide new fast machines by june03 a lot of people will do the switch, switching from mac to mac ...

.a

 

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
Another point i'd like to add.


wasn't apple giving away a free copy of indesign with a power mac purchase....

Now that doesnt sound to me like a company that is waiting for quark......😉 😀

Not waiting- pressuring.

Or at least trying to.....

 

[JupiterZen]

Re: Mac OS 9 Support until June?

I don't understand the problem really.

I've seen Quark 5 work very nicely in the Classic Environment.

😕

 

[jayscheuerle]

Re: Re: Mac OS 9 Support until June?

Originally posted by JupiterZen
I don't understand the problem really.

I've seen Quark 5 work very nicely in the Classic Environment.

😕

The redraw problem (even with ClassicDrawXT and no rulers) is terribly annoying. I miss my "step and repeat" key command AND I like my measurements palette at the bottom but the DOCK keeps popping up. I use it every day and wish I didn't have to. At least it works.

The best thing about leaving Classic behind is getting all that RAM back...

 

[gopher]

Re: Re: Mac OS 9 Support until June?

Originally posted by JupiterZen
I don't understand the problem really.

I've seen Quark 5 work very nicely in the Classic Environment.

😕

A lot of people still don't have the right
printer drivers for Classic to work well with Quark 5.
Until they do, they are stuck either booting into 9, or
waiting till Quark is updated. Same with importing Quark
projects to InDesign. It doesn't always work the way it is
expected to work. It should be smooth as glass.

 

[gbojim]

Originally posted by pgwalsh
It would be sad if Apple had to delay the OS X only launch for one software manufacturer. Does Quark have the user base to say we'll stop supporting Mac if you don't postpone the OS X move? That would be funny and sad if they had that kind of power. They've had long enough to develop for OS X. Adobe and Macromedia have moved their main products over, why can't Quark.

Unfortunately, Quark does have that kind of power. You will find very few designers who prefer Quark over ID from a creative perspective. However, it is the workflow management infrastructure established at the large volume users (who outnumber the little guys by a ton) that keeps Quark in the game.

The high volume folks spent a ton of money on a Quark infrastructure over the years and they are not about to spend a ton of money to replace it with an inferior workflow management product from Adobe.

Then of course there are the high volume printing houses, many of which refuse to accept ID files because they do not RIP cleanly.

 

[peterjhill]

Re: Re: Re: Mac OS 9 Support until June?

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
I like my measurements palette at the bottom but the DOCK keeps popping up. I use it every day and wish I didn't have to. At least it works.

Did you realize that you can move the dock to other parts of your screen, like the right or left side? Try it, it works, it is very nice.

 

[alset]

Originally posted by ddtlm


I am very amused that now-adays a good Mac-lover must hate OS9 and insult it at every turn, and likewise for the G4. My my, how quickly rabid defense of these cornerstones of Mac-ness evaporates once a real alternative starts to show. People don't seem to remember the day when every good Mac lover was expected to argue that the G4 was a supercomputer and that OS9 has no drawbacks whatsoever.

I could not have said it better if I tried. It's funny to me that so many Mac users now treat their former OS as archaic and nonfunctioning. Though OS X is the future of our platform (and a great one, at that) there are many institutions still using OS 9.

Until recently, most audio professionals have been left high and dry, regarding OS X. Still, much of the market waits for Pro Tools and DP3. Are sound engineers less valuable as customers for not demanding more of their companies, or switching platforms to tools that have already been ported? With this in mind I absolutely support the idea of doing favors for installed customer groups. That includes making changes to the OS 9 termination plan for Quark's users.

What is Apple's greatest asset? Customers that love them. This is a potentially great way to maintain the affections of an important group.

Dan

 

[gopher]

I admit, I booted into Mac OS 9 yesterday to play some Simcity 3000. I still use Mac OS X for most everything else.

 

[Monomni]

We care about this, why?

How many people REALLY still need to boot up in OS 9?

I admit, I occasionally had to boot in OS 9 when I was still using Quark - my computer had "issues" when running Classic... That still brought it's own share of Quark agonies.
But those days are long gone... I've dropped Quark, and even when they DO make an OS X version, I'm going to be one of probably many people who STILL avoid it like the plague.

Quark got such a stranglehold on publishing by being the only comparable layout program, and we were taken advantage of and ignored. But now there are others, and Quark is so deluded that they are ignoring the industry trends and changes... AND expecting us to go along with it! Uh, uh... stick a fork in Quark, it's done.

For those of you who haven't switched to InDesign, it is definitely worth it. It's really NOT hard to learn (especially if you've used Quirky Quark), and I have found significantly less agravation and missing features than in Quark...

It's probably not much of an issue to Apple whether they extend OS 9 bootability... they probably think it's a minor concession and a safer bet to keep Quark (and other OS 9-only apps) users from extending their app frustrations to their Macs. But I think it's a matter of principle. Apple shouldn't change it's plans for Quark - they don't deserve it anymore. And even if they did deserve any favor, it still shouldn't matter - it is the software companies' responsibility to keep up with technology at a reasonable pace. And that ALSO applies to Apple upgrading its products to meet tecnological advances.

🙂

 

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


Never count the beta..

You're right but the beta was still there for quark to start tinkering with as far as a new environment for there next release. Don't ya think. 😀

10.0 was barely useable

It was useable, not the best experience but still useable, i switched over to OS X at 10.0.4. PLus whether it was 'useable' doesnt' excuse quark from using 10.0 to at least begin there development of a native version for future release. 🙂

10.1 had lots of problems (the Apple discussion boards were rolling during those days)

I used 10.1 daily with quark, photoshop, dreamweaver, flash, etc... all running in classic, i had very few problems and thought 10.1 was the first everyday useable and reliable version of OS X.

But again whether it was useable doesn't excuse quark of using 10.1(which came out over a year ago) to begin developing for OS X. 🙂

10.2 is a good, solid starting point for an OS.

Jaguar is great, feature filled and enjoyable to use.

At this point i feel quark should have been ready and only delayed there product to tweak it for jaguar, which would have been understandable and only taken a few months at the most.

I'm waiting to buy my next mac until the hardware can handle the OS's overhead. The top end dualies still aren't cutting it. If you say they are, then you're more tolerant than I am (and have lower expectations)..

Wow your standards must be high. 🙂 😀.....
I do graphic design, web design and development, i'm a power user and a big time multitasker and i have no problems running 4 or 5 programs all at the same time while working on multiple projects (and two of those programs are always photoshop and dreamweaver) on my 500mhz tibook with 512mb.

So for me i could only dream of how fast a dual 1ghz must be if my powerbook runs jag great. 🙂 and i'm heavily debating buying a new system for work(that ghz tibook sounds great, L3 cache, 64mb vram and 1gb ram upgrade......drooling), I wonder if my job will pay the extra 200 bucks for the superdrive. 😉

From the time i have spent on a dual 867 it seems to be every bit as fast as my girlfriends Pentium 4 running XP. Multitasking on that computer sucks. THere is a noticeable lag no matter what programs you use.

Quark should have had something out by now, but their programmer works nights as a waiter at TGI Fridays & is struggling for time.

LMFAO..... now thats funny😀

 

[JupiterZen]

Re: Re: Re: Mac OS 9 Support until June?

Originally posted by gopher


A lot of people still don't have the right
printer drivers for Classic to work well with Quark 5.
Until they do, they are stuck either booting into 9, or
waiting till Quark is updated. Same with importing Quark
projects to InDesign. It doesn't always work the way it is
expected to work. It should be smooth as glass.

It's a computer ... never smooth as glass 😉

But seriously, if you use Quark from Classic you are using the same printer drivers and printing system as you would booting into OS 9, aren't you?

But I can imagine that Not All Printer Drivers Are Created Equal

 

[JupiterZen]

Re: Re: Re: Mac OS 9 Support until June?

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


The redraw problem (even with ClassicDrawXT and no rulers) is terribly annoying. I miss my "step and repeat" key command AND I like my measurements palette at the bottom but the DOCK keeps popping up. I use it every day and wish I didn't have to. At least it works.

The best thing about leaving Classic behind is getting all that RAM back...

Okay, those redraw problems I understand, but the dock could be placed on the side to prevent it from popping up.

But besides these probems, does it technically do what you want? Can you print correctly and stuff like that?

 

[JupiterZen]

Re: We care about this, why?

Originally posted by Monomni
How many people REALLY still need to boot up in OS 9?

All serious audio professionals.

I know that Logic and Cubase have finally arrived, but I can't make the switch until Sounddiver or Unisyn comes to OS X as well.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Mac OS 9 Support until June?

Originally posted by peterjhill


Did you realize that you can move the dock to other parts of your screen, like the right or left side? Try it, it works, it is very nice.

I used to love it on the right hand side, but I have a dual monitor set-up at work and it tosses the dock on the rightmost monitor, which does not work for me. My mouse NEVER goes over there. Like most people (I think), I use the left hand side for tool palettes....

 

[jayscheuerle]

Thirteenva

I've been using OSX as well since 10.1 as a guinea pig for the print side of our agency (pub. beta @ home before that). I hate going back to 9 as much as the next OSX lover, BUT I also hate the fact that 9 is so much more responsive. OS9's Finder is so much snappier on a 300mHz G3 than OSX's is on a dual 1.25gHz machine. Those annoying little half-second pauses when renaming, changing views, just moving around..... you either notice them or you don't, and if you do, they interrupt your creative flow. But hey, this isn't another OSX disection discussion. This is a "God I hate Quark for hundreds of reasons" discussion. I digress..😀

What troubles me is that I haven't even heard of Quark seeding any beta releases yet. I've tried ID2, but my low-end G4 isn't fast enough to run it smoothly. Feature set is good, but it makes OSX's Finder seem like a speed demon.

Is Chimera the only OSX app that runs fast?😕

 

[alset]

Re: We care about this, why?

Originally posted by Monomni
How many people REALLY still need to boot up in OS 9?

🙂

Well, I gotta say I'm pretty offended that you would trivialize a major upgrade like this and treat it as if your experiences must be the norm. That your post subject reads "We care about this, why?" shows that you don't have any compassion for your fellow Mac-faithful.

Now, I'll tell you something: I won't change my tools for audio until something better comes along. There's no such thing as change because I have to. I'll use old technology if it let's me run better applications, which is often the case with OS 9 and audio. We will all be glad when this trend changes. Until then, you should stop pushing others to migrate to a platform that they don't want to use.

Finally, the larger account will almost always be media professionals who need lots of outboard hardware and specialized software to do their jobs. Apple isn't trying to alienate them, as your post has alienated me.

Dan

 

[Billy_ca]

f$ck Quark

That's all I have to say.

 

[Monomni]

Anybody have a fire extinguisher?

Originally posted by alset
Well, I gotta say I'm pretty offended that you would trivialize a major upgrade like this and treat it as if your experience's must be the norm. That your post subject reads "We care about this, why?" shows that you don't have any compassion for your fellow Mac-faithful.

<dropping and rolling to put out the flames>

OK, whoa, whoa... I apologize if you took offense to my post, but I'm certainly not blasting Mac users. I'm a macaholic since 1985, so I definitely have compassion for my "fellow Mac-faithful."

My "who really boots in OS 9" question, was just that - a question. I haven't seen any useful polls/data about the number of users that this really does impact.

My post's criticism was directed at Quark (presumably the primary company up for discussion about OS 9-bootability). - and I know there are also still some OS X audio app shortcomings...

Stay light-hearted and enjoyed the Mac COMMUNITY - we're all buddies, here.
*i hope*

😀

 

[springscansing]

Re: Re: We care about this, why?

Originally posted by JupiterZen


All serious audio professionals.

I know that Logic and Cubase have finally arrived, but I can't make the switch until Sounddiver or Unisyn comes to OS X as well.

EXACTLY. Don't forget Reaktor and Absynth and about a million VSTis.

 

[Thirteenva]

jayscheuerle

jayscheuerle, I hear ya, if i really pay attention i do notice the half second pauses, i haven't been in 9 for so long now that i really haven't noticed a difference. Its been over a year since i've booted into 9 so with each os upgrade to OS X i've noticed it getting faster and it just seems "normal" for it to work how it does.

What hardware are you running , you said "low end g4". I used ID2 on my tibook and its not that bad. Not gonna set any speed records but really quite useable. Maybe i'm just used to my tibook. I'm still quite happy with it for now and hopefully will be until work decides to upgrade my laptop sometime next year 😀. here's to hoping it will be a 970 ibm.....😉

 

[bpatterson]

OS 9 Booting

I was just on campus at Apple for some training with OS X Server, and while we were there, we got to ask some questions. The engineers clarified Job's statement to be the following:

Only NEW hardware after the first of the year will lose the ability to boot to 9. All existing hardware models advertised until the first of the year will retain the ability to boot into 9 as long as they are in production.

According to the Apple engineers and software reps, this had less to do with Quark than it had to do with the education sector throwing a fit about being forced to migrate systems to maintain uniformity for support. Take Stanford University for example. The campus libraries upgrade 1/3 of their machines per year, meaning that they are still running machines made 3 years ago, some of which aren't exactly the most optized for X. In order to keep things uniform, they would need to migrate all these machines to X along with completing the developement of a netboot system by the beginning of January. With the 6 month delay, they are now able to wait until Summer when most students are off campus.

The other reason the education sector began to scream loudly was that X does not have a solid and fast networked backup system out on the market yet (Retrospect still has some work to do.)

Anyways, this is what the Apple engineers and software reps were telling us. Take it for what it's worth....

 

[bpatterson]

When will I switch?

Oh yeah... I guess I should say that I run X on all my machines in my office, but at home I use ProTools and until Digidesign gets on it, I'm screwed into 9. Doh....

 

[gopher]

Re: When will I switch?

Originally posted by bpatterson
Oh yeah... I guess I should say that I run X on all my machines in my office, but at home I use ProTools and until Digidesign gets on it, I'm screwed into 9. Doh....

There are lots nice new Mac OS X audio applications:
Versiontracker
has quite a few. I've heard lots of good things about
PeakDV. Mind you, if you aren't using Mac OS X 10.2 and are trying to do audio in Mac OS X you aren't going to see anywhere near as much support since Mac OS X 10.2 has much better MIDI integration in the system than earlier versions of Mac OS X.

 

[bpatterson]

ProTools

The issue for me isn't the quality of the other audio apps coming out for X, it's that I work closely with a stack of producers in LA and they are all using ProTools, so while I am up for using new options, I've got to be able to hand files back and forth with these guys. And frankly, ProTools does kick ass, so I wish they would get their programming hineys in gear and give us a version for X! They got it out for XP, so what's the lag?