Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther) 7B85 Seeded to Select Developers

[iHack]

Originally posted by Krevnik
Hmm, slight problem with that... which I hope Apple fixed before sending the CD for duplication. The 7B85 leak from awhile back doesn't boot in a stable manner on Lombard machines... the Install CD kernel panics about 99% of the time with a 'cannot find driver for platform' error.

Hey, what's to say... Lombards are not on the Apple website, so apparently, your Lombard is unsupported, even though it has USB support.

Isn't that a bummer...

Charles Moore (macopinion.com) had a nice column last week on the Wallstreet being not supported anymore, where the lack of support for lombards was mentioned as well (find it here).

M.

 

[patseguin]

I ordered my Up-To-Date Panther via fax last week. How do I know what the shipping status is? I received no kind of acknowledgement from Apple.

 

[achmafooma]

Re: Re: Beige G3/Panther

Originally posted by 3.1416
Panther will run only on "New World" G3s, i.e. the ones that have USB built in. This includes all iMacs and blue & white towers, but not beige G3s.

Has anybody actually tried it on a beige G3? I had a used Wallstreet (sold it to a friend at-cost... I'm a conduit for cheap switchers) and even though it didn't have the required ram, OS X installed and ran on it.

A little slow, but no real problems.

So I'm wondering if this means that it wont work, or if it just means Apple doesn't support or condone it.

I've got a beige G3 I keep around as a fun machine to nerd around with... it has OS X, OS 9, and Yellow Dog Linux on even partitions but I don't do hardly any real work on it... the exception being when I'm doing something full-screen on my Quicksilver and need to bring up a website (when I'm in X-Plane, for example).

I'll try Panther on it, just to see what happens ;-) when I get my CDs.

But the Quicksilver and iBook are the only ones I really care about being up to date.

 

[WM.]

Originally posted by iHack
Hey, what's to say... Lombards are not on the Apple website,

Yes they are. "PowerBook (Bronze Keyboard)" = Lombard.

so apparently, your Lombard is unsupported, even though it has USB support.

Isn't that a bummer...

Charles Moore (macopinion.com) had a nice column last week on the Wallstreet being not supported anymore, where the lack of support for lombards was mentioned as well

He doesn't say that they aren't supported, he says that it's not clear.

Let's not spread FUD, OK? The Lombard is supported, period. Whether it works or not is another matter, apparently. This is the first time I've seen anyone say that Panther doesn't work on the Lombard, so I'm not necessarily inclined to believe Krevnik, but if it really doesn't work Apple will fix it promptly. Even if they do, it would be a fiasco, so somehow I doubt that it doesn't work "99% of the time" as he says.

WM

 

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by LimeiBook86
Too bad my G3 MiniTower can't run Panther. I meen it's 333mhz, 512mb RAM, and I think it could handle it. Too bad Apple pulled the plug on it. I still have my PowerBook, iBook, and my Dad's PowerMac G4. Looks like we need a family pack

Just use XPostFacto when it comes out. It will be worth it.

 

[gopher]

Originally posted by WM.
Yes they are. "PowerBook (Bronze Keyboard)" = Lombard.

He doesn't say that they aren't supported, he says that it's not clear.

Let's not spread FUD, OK? The Lombard is supported, period. Whether it works or not is another matter, apparently. This is the first time I've seen anyone say that Panther doesn't work on the Lombard, so I'm not necessarily inclined to believe Krevnik, but if it really doesn't work Apple will fix it promptly. Even if they do, it would be a fiasco, so somehow I doubt that it doesn't work "99% of the time" as he says.

WM

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The Lombard is not supported. Look at

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

The picture shows the Pismo there. It does not show the Lombard. The Lombard never had an image of a videocamera by its side. The Pismo did. Part of the reason this is the case, is that the Pismo has Firewire, and the Lombard does not. And the other part of the reason, if you followed the Macfixit and Apple Forums, you'd find out the Lombard have a particular chip issue with Mac OS X in general that it is the luck of the draw if yours supports X. Many you couldn't install X at all.

 

[JBracy]

Originally posted by gopher
Sorry, but you are mistaken. The Lombard is not supported. Look at

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

The picture shows the Pismo there. It does not show the Lombard. The Lombard never had an image of a videocamera by its side. The Pismo did. Part of the reason this is the case, is that the Pismo has Firewire, and the Lombard does not. And the other part of the reason, if you followed the Macfixit and Apple Forums, you'd find out the Lombard have a particular chip issue with Mac OS X in general that it is the luck of the draw if yours supports X. Many you couldn't install X at all.

The fact of the matter is that Apple says "PowerBook (Bronze Keyboard)" Which is what they always called the the Lombard. The "PowerBook (FireWire)" is what they called the Pismo. Check the Apple Info Page at http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58359 it clearly says:

"PowerBook G3 Series (Bronze Keyboard): Technical Specifications ………

Connectivity
Two 12 Mbps Universal Serial Bus (USB) ports
SCSI port for connecting as many as seven external devices
Power adapter port"

Sounds like a lombard to me.

 

[WM.]

Originally posted by gopher
Sorry, but you are mistaken. The Lombard is not supported. Look at

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

The picture shows the Pismo there. It does not show the Lombard. The Lombard never had an image of a videocamera by its side. The Pismo did. Part of the reason this is the case, is that the Pismo has Firewire, and the Lombard does not.

That's true, but I doubt even the person who chose that picture on that page knew or noticed whether that was a Lombard or a Pismo.

Look, it doesn't matter what the pictures look like. What matters is that Apple says all over the place (including on the retail box, presumably) that Panther supports G3/G4/G5 Macs with built-in USB, at least 128 MB of RAM, and an Apple-supplied video card of some sort. That includes the Lombard. Period.

And JBracy is right.

And the other part of the reason, if you followed the Macfixit and Apple Forums, you'd find out the Lombard have a particular chip issue with Mac OS X in general that it is the luck of the draw if yours supports X. Many you couldn't install X at all.

It doesn't matter. Like I said, the Lombard is officially supported. Whether it actually works or not, in practice, is a different issue. And if it doesn't work, Apple is obligated to fix it.

Also, are you talking about installation issues with Panther, or with previous versions of OS X?

WM

edit: Hey, it's the six-month anniversary of my joining these forums.

 

[lewdvig]

I got 10.1 working on a 120MHz PowerMac 7600. So I think that Lombard owners will be fine.

 

[Krevnik]

Okay, let me clear a couple of things up:

1) The Lombard IS supported.

2) Builds before the 7B85 leak INSTALLED and WORKED just fine.

3) The 7B85 leak refuses to boot off the CD for me, and when it does in some freak occurance, the installer claims the CD is corrupt. I have checked and the checksum, MD5 hash, verified burn, etc are fine.

This leads me to the conclusion that an error was made in the CD image that became the leaked 7B85. Now, if this error still exists in the official 7B85 seed, and the GM still remains to be seen. I hope it doesn't exist, because if it is, people will be angry, including me, when we spend 130$ on a mistake in CD mastering.

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Apple & specs

Originally posted by lewdvig
I got 10.1 working on a 120MHz PowerMac 7600. So I think that Lombard owners will be fine.

OSX works even on 6500 powermacs : check <http://www.zone6400.com/files/installing_OSX.html>

On my old B&W G3/300, Panther beta (7b85) has speeded up everything, especially quartz and graphic interface...!
So it's worth buying it as a major update

 

[JBracy]

Originally posted by Krevnik
3) The 7B85 leak refuses to boot off the CD for me, and when it does in some freak occurance, the installer claims the CD is corrupt. I have checked and the checksum, MD5 hash, verified burn, etc are fine.

This leads me to the conclusion that an error was made in the CD image that became the leaked 7B85. Now, if this error still exists in the official 7B85 seed, and the GM still remains to be seen. I hope it doesn't exist, because if it is, people will be angry, including me, when we spend 130$ on a mistake in CD mastering.

Actually this is something that Apple did. In order to burn the CD correctly you need to use 'Disc Copy" in 10.2 or "Disc Utility" in previous 10.3 builds. If you use Toast it will not boot or will appear corrupt.

 

[WM.]

Originally posted by Krevnik
Okay, let me clear a couple of things up:

1) The Lombard IS supported.

2) Builds before the 7B85 leak INSTALLED and WORKED just fine.

3) The 7B85 leak refuses to boot off the CD for me, and when it does in some freak occurance, the installer claims the CD is corrupt. I have checked and the checksum, MD5 hash, verified burn, etc are fine.

This leads me to the conclusion that an error was made in the CD image that became the leaked 7B85. Now, if this error still exists in the official 7B85 seed, and the GM still remains to be seen. I hope it doesn't exist, because if it is, people will be angry, including me, when we spend 130$ on a mistake in CD mastering.

OK, makes perfect sense. Thanks for sorting that out. See what happens when you don't provide enough detail in a post? Even more so when you're reporting a problem--people will just jump on it...

WM

 

[gopher]

Originally posted by Krevnik
Okay, let me clear a couple of things up:

1) The Lombard IS supported.

2) Builds before the 7B85 leak INSTALLED and WORKED just fine.

3) The 7B85 leak refuses to boot off the CD for me, and when it does in some freak occurance, the installer claims the CD is corrupt. I have checked and the checksum, MD5 hash, verified burn, etc are fine.

This leads me to the conclusion that an error was made in the CD image that became the leaked 7B85. Now, if this error still exists in the official 7B85 seed, and the GM still remains to be seen. I hope it doesn't exist, because if it is, people will be angry, including me, when we spend 130$ on a mistake in CD mastering.

Krevnik, any non-official copy you have of Panther may actually be an earlier build even though the build number is the same. If your most modern Mac is the Lombard, either buy a newer Mac, or cancel your Panther order. I tell you, unless Apple's link here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

Shows the Lombard in the picture, I do not believe it is supported. Both Lombard and Pismo had Bronze keyboards, but what's pictured there is definitely the Pismo, since it was the first Powerbook that supported DV cameras, which that Powerbook is shown with.

Looking here it is clearer that picture shown is definitely the Firewire Powerbook G3:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020903234252/http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

 

[JBracy]

Originally posted by gopher
I tell you, unless Apple's link here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

Shows the Lombard in the picture, I do not believe it is supported. Both Lombard and Pismo had Bronze keyboards, but what's pictured there is definitely the Pismo, since it was the first Powerbook that supported DV cameras, which that Powerbook is shown with.

Looking here it is clearer that picture shown is definitely the Firewire Powerbook G3:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020903234252/http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE PICTURE IS!!! Apple never referred to these PowerBooks publicly by their code name. Neither could anyone ever be expected to analyze a 1" square picture to determine if they have a supported product. The FACT of the matter is that Apple have Always publicly referred to the Lombard as "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)" and to Pismo as "PowerBook G3 (FireWire)" Look at the Apple Info articles!
http://kbase.info.apple.com/viewdoc.jsp?locale=en_US&searchMode=Expert&type=id&docID=KC.58359_E

http://kbase.info.apple.com/viewdoc.jsp?locale=en_US&searchMode=Expert&type=id&docID=KC.58336_E

http://kbase.info.apple.com/viewdoc.jsp?locale=en_US&searchMode=Expert&type=id&docID=KC.58330_E

Basically Apple named it's PowerBook G3 computers by what was new on them.

 

[gopher]

JBracy,
I agree with you to a point, but my point is the picture clearly shows a Pismo, not a Lombard. The picture itself could be a typo, or the text Bronze could be a typo. That's what's not clear from Apple's website. And until official word shows up that it is supported clearing the confusion, I would err on the side of caution.

 

[ryan]

Originally posted by gopher
JBracy,
I agree with you to a point, but my point is the picture clearly shows a Pismo, not a Lombard. The picture itself could be a typo, or the text Bronze could be a typo. That's what's not clear from Apple's website. And until official word shows up that it is supported clearing the confusion, I would err on the side of caution.

My, god! Put the picture out of your head!!! The official word is that Lombard, or as Apple has always called them "PowerBook (Bronze Keyboard)" is supported. Period. End of story.

 

[JBracy]

Originally posted by gopher
JBracy,
I agree with you to a point, but my point is the picture clearly shows a Pismo, not a Lombard. The picture itself could be a typo, or the text Bronze could be a typo. That's what's not clear from Apple's website. And until official word shows up that it is supported clearing the confusion, I would err on the side of caution.

My point is that the picture is irrelevant. How much more official can you get than Apple saying that we support "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)" when that is what Apple have ALWAYS called that product?

If they were referring to the Pismo then they would have said "PowerBook G3 (FireWire)"

Now the assumption is that the Pismo is also included, as they both have bronze keyboards, but if you want to be picky you could actually read this to say that the Lombard is supported and the Pismo is not. I doubt this is the case.

Actually I am slightly wrong. The Lombard is refered to as "PowerBook G3 Series (Bronze Keyboard)", so the fact that it just says "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)" should indicate that all PowerBook G3's with Bronze keyboards are supported.

 

[gopher]

I will only put the picture out of my head, once I hear that the Lombard actually works with a retail purchased copy of Panther. Until such time, we can only speculate unless Apple clarifies the website.

 

[JBracy]

Originally posted by gopher
I will only put the picture out of my head, once I hear that the Lombard actually works with a retail purchased copy of Panther. Until such time, we can only speculate unless Apple clarifies the website.

Apple will NEVER say that "Lombard" is supported, because they never refer to products by their code name (well except Jaguar and Panther) but the official name of the PowerBook that we refer to as Lombard is "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard).

Just take a look in "MacTracker" the Official name of Lombard is "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)"!!!

 

[gopher]

Originally posted by JBracy
Apple will NEVER say that "Lombard" is supported, because they never refer to products by their code name (well except Jaguar and Panther) but the official name of the PowerBook that we refer to as Lombard is "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard).

Just take a look in "MacTracker" the Official name of Lombard is "PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)"!!!

Oh I know that, but by the same token, it can clarify which Bronze keyboard model they meant. The Firewire model or the SCSI model? The SCSI model is the only Mac with both SCSI built-in and USB. Blue and White G3 had a PCI SCSI card, and not a built-in SCSI port, and that's what may be limiting the Lombard.

 

[JBracy]

Originally posted by gopher
Oh I know that, but by the same token, it can clarify which Bronze keyboard model they meant. The Firewire model or the SCSI model? The SCSI model is the only Mac with both SCSI built-in and USB. Blue and White G3 had a PCI SCSI card, and not a built-in SCSI port, and that's what may be limiting the Lombard.

SCSI does not limit OSX the LACK of USB does. OSX does not require FireWire ports, but it does require USB and does not support built in serial ports. That is why the beige G3's are not supported not because they have SCSI.

I had everything upto 10.1 running on a Lombard, but I don't have one anymore, otherwise I'd test it and give you a definitive answer.

 

[Krevnik]

Okay, let me clarify further... the Lombard series *is* supported. In fact, it is now the new lowest-end laptop that is supported by the newest OS X version, much like the iMac now.

Additionally, the problem seemed to be due to my burner, not my laptop. I was using a Yamaha SCSI burner (didn't need any additional drivers, DiscBurning recognized it 'automagically'), and just tried a newer LaCie drive and that booted just fine without any errors.

So, all this fuss over an error in the making of the CD image and DiscBurning's not-quite-there SCSI support. Whee.

If Apple had not intended to support the Lombard, then they would have said so. However, the Bronze Keyboard models are supported, which is why I purchased a used one 2 months ago (can't exactly afford a 'new' machine until I stop spending 15 grand a year on college). Apple also would have pulled the plug well before the WWDC build, which works just fine.

 

[gopher]

Originally posted by Krevnik
Okay, let me clarify further... the Lombard series *is* supported. In fact, it is now the new lowest-end laptop that is supported by the newest OS X version, much like the iMac now.

Additionally, the problem seemed to be due to my burner, not my laptop. I was using a Yamaha SCSI burner (didn't need any additional drivers, DiscBurning recognized it 'automagically'), and just tried a newer LaCie drive and that booted just fine without any errors.

So, all this fuss over an error in the making of the CD image and DiscBurning's not-quite-there SCSI support. Whee.

If Apple had not intended to support the Lombard, then they would have said so. However, the Bronze Keyboard models are supported, which is why I purchased a used one 2 months ago (can't exactly afford a 'new' machine until I stop spending 15 grand a year on college). Apple also would have pulled the plug well before the WWDC build, which works just fine.

You can get a dual USB iBook for $800 which is supported. That's Apple's student price on many of their refurbished iBooks. The Lombard is no guarantee to be supported by Panther. That image being there on their website leads me to believe it isn't supported. I would send in for a refund on Panther until official word is clearer. The toilet seat iBook is actually the lowest end laptop supported by Panther, and that can be had for as little as $600 if you shop around. But I would put it on at least a dual USB iBook which has Firewire and two USB ports. The problem with getting a machine with no Firewire is also that you can't make a mirror backup that is reliable with it, in case you wanted to upgrade and suddenly the upgrade didn't work. Having a built-in Firewire port lets you make a backup before upgrading, and not have to reinstall everything.

 

[catman2u]

pm the 24th

--I made the order on curiousity, just to see if it arrived pm the 24th. I assume they mean pm/afternoon, but either way my company is open until 10-11 pm so that should be enuff.