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matticus008 said:
The OS X licensing disaster is still pretty fresh in Apple's memory, and it was a spectacular failure

I think you mean licensing the old mac OS? OSX has never been licensed.

JFreak said:
I wouldn't be so sure. Apple has always been proud of its products, and offering full true 64bit operation for current (PPC) hardware is just what we have grown to expect from the company.

But 64 bit hardware has been shipping for years. If they were going to optimize for it, wouldn't they have done it by now? You think it's going to happen right before they discontinue the hardware?
 
another factor to consider

milo said:
But 64 bit hardware has been shipping for years. If they were going to optimize for it, wouldn't they have done it by now?

You think it's going to happen right before they discontinue the hardware?
And even if Apple did make a true 64-bit OSX for PPC, how many application vendors will go to the expense of porting to 64-bit PPC?

It's a chicken and egg problem - without the chicken and without the egg.
 
AidenShaw said:
And even if Apple did make a true 64-bit OSX for PPC, how many application vendors will go to the expense of porting to 64-bit PPC?

I don't know. Frankly, I don't care if they update the OS to 64 on PPC. If they'd just get Logic to use more than 4 gigs of ram, that would be plenty.

Well, that and getting Logic to use more than two of the four processors on a quad.
 
...is Darwin going to be "portable to the Cell BE"?

...Apple's Darwin..not sure.

OpenDarwin...ahem...take a look at what they are already doing:

http://www.opendarwin.org/en/projects/DarwinCoda/

Some Darwin/Linux/BSD "multiple mixed" and patched* versions (similar
to what is being done with Win XP and the new Intel Dual chips..) could
be ported...but how many errors ...system holes..and outright kernal
panics will be allowed before anything "walks out of the lab"?

Ask Steve.

I am sure there will be developers who get all kinds of answers before August.

Avie is going to get "some type of cell software" ready..too much money
involved otherwise..ask IBM.

WW

*( The Cell BE already uses a Linux version see:

http://www.mc.com/products/view/index.cfm?id=32&type=software
http://www.mc.com/products/view/index.cfm?id=96&type=boards

)
 
matticus008 said:
Yeah, that's what I meant. I've gotten too used to typing the "X" after OS after all these years :p

The funny thing is that OS X has been licensed before (in the sense of "made available for white box PCs without licensing restrictions on which machines it can be installed upon") with limited success. All versions of NextStep from 3.x to Rhapsody (albiet the latter only available to licensed Apple developers) could legally be installed on third party PCs.

NeXT used this to save themselves from oblivion when hardware sales failed to take off as they'd hoped. It had limited success.

The thing that everyone has to remember is that the industry is constantly changing. In the mid-eighties, Apple or Commodore could have taken over the market with a more open attitude towards licensing as they had superior systems that were hampered by the limitations of only being available from one vendor, with one image. Apple's Macs were over-priced and under-powered. Commodore's Amiga suffered from lousy management and branding issues.

In the early-nineties, everyone saw Microsoft as the future and all third party platforms as dead in the water, never able to recover. Most non-Microsoft computer makers had gone bust or stopped selling hardware altogether. Apple was flailing. Apple's licencees sold Mac compatables to the existing Mac user base precisely because there was nobody else they could sell the things to. People otherwise generally bought Windows 95, or if they wanted a "technically superior solution" they chose NT or OS/2, both of which were better than Mac OS 7 on pretty much every level except the GUI (and that's a subjective point.)

Now we're in 200x. Windows is popular, but a significant number of people want out. GNU/Linux is about the only option unless you want to invest significantly in hardware that's rarely going to be cost effective. (Insert usual claims about Mac and Dell equivalents generally having the Mac being cheaper. That's not how it works though. Most people want X, if Apple sells X+Y for $1,999 and Dell sells X+Z for $999, then Dell's machine is, sans operating system, more cost effective. If I want a 17" widescreen on my laptop with DVD playing ability, enough power to run moderately good games, and otherwise just the ability to browse the net, I'm better off buying the sub-$999 laptop (w/ 17" WS, ATI graphics, and a Pentium M) I saw in Staples yesterday afternoon than waiting for the 17" MacBook.)

And generally, GNU/Linux isn't that popular. It might be. GNOME is heading (finally!) in the right direction, but if I say it's not there yet on a Mac forum, I'm preaching to the choir. So people dabble with GNU, go back to Windows, and wait.

I don't think this is the same situation as the mid-nineties when everyone wanted Windows 95. When Windows 95 was truly revolutionary, with a UI that was almost there, and with an underpinning that was far more powerful (pre-emptive multitasking, automatic memory management, built-in TCP/IP networking, and past and future compatability with content that simply wouldn't be available for other platforms) than what Apple had to offer at that time.

To sum up: the market is different:

- Most content available today is platform neutral. It wasn't in 1995.
- Mac OS X is an equal to Windows, and clearly superior on the front-end. Mac OS 7 was a poor cousin of Windows 95, and its UI was only marginally better.
- People are willing to consider non-Microsoft platforms again. In 1995, Microsoft was the land to swim to from the sinking ships of Commodore, Atari, and Apple.

And it's worth noting that Apple/NeXT have tried two different models - licensing to manufacturers (Apple) without restrictions on marketing (ouch!) and licensing to users without restrictions on hardware (NeXT), the former failed, the latter did as well as it could given the circumstances - the one thing it did do was ensure that the OpenStep platform never died.

So can we, for once, hit this "Apple tried it before and it failed" thing about licensing Mac OS on the head? There are many good arguments on both sides about whether Apple should license Mac OS X, but comparing Apple licensing a different operating system in a different market using a lousy licensing model or irrelevent licensing model isn't really providing anything useful.
 
Unfortunately your post, although well informed, didn't really add anything either. It all comes back to the fact that "Apple is a Hardware Company" I'm afraid, just like NeXT was. NeXT only started selling the OS (as you say) when hardware sales plummeted.

Apple right now are sitting pretty with hardware sales. Sales are up during a period when they should be lowest (mid transistion) and 50% of new Mac sales are going to people who previous weren't Mac users. I.e. growth.

The business model is working, why change it?
 
dr_lha said:
Unfortunately your post, although well informed, didn't really add anything either.
My post was dealing with the myth that because Apple has "done it in the past", that this is relevent to whether they "do it in the future". For a variety of reasons, this isn't the case: the market is different, and the way they did it isn't the only way to do it.

The fact this isn't relevent to an entirely different argument "Apple is a hardware company" (actually, I have difficulty with this. People buy Apple for the software: the hardware has served a purpose in the past and is often elegant, but if they were a hardware company, they would have switched to Windows a long time ago. The hardware's role is to run the software Apple produces, the software that everyone lusts for) doesn't make the comment "not add anything".
 
peharri said:
My post was dealing with the myth that because Apple has "done it in the past", that this is relevent to whether they "do it in the future". For a variety of reasons, this isn't the case: the market is different, and the way they did it isn't the only way to do it.
Absolutely the market is different--it's much thinner. There are few viable operating systems and even fewer hardware architectures. But history does matter tremendously, not only to stockholders, but to Jobs himself--he has inherited TWO failed attempts at software licensing. Apple's clone debacle, and NeXT's complete failure. To date, no mixed hardware-software company has successfully licensed their products--most no longer exist at all, others are manufacturers of Intel clones. The market share difference today is so tremendous that the atmosphere makes it far riskier than the early 90s. Even giants like HP and IBM were unsuccessful when their closed loops were opened, and there were many more competitors then, not one giant to topple.

The fact this isn't relevent to an entirely different argument "Apple is a hardware company" (actually, I have difficulty with this. People buy Apple for the software:
But Apple pays for the software through its hardware. The company generates money by means of selling hardware, and that money alone fuels software development. So from a market perspective, Apple is a hardware company that basically gives its software away. Obviously, the reason its hardware sells is because of the software, but with their current business model, they are first and foremost a hardware company. Software sales account for a negligible amount of revenue.

Consumer software sales alone won't support Apple, and Microsoft could easily undercut Apple for pricing. Apple also lacks the resources to create broad compatibility for generic PC hardware, and OS X has very limited support for PCI peripherals and older hardware, with companies disinclined to write the drivers themselves. Windows is better at all of these things. After the first wave of "wow, OS X on my PC at last!" customers dries out, along with the accompanying massive drop in Mac sales, they'll be stuck. If Apple drops the ball just once and Microsoft claims its customers back, that's the end of Apple. Apple computers need OS X to sell at profitable rates, and OS X can't survive on broad PC hardware and needs Macs to keep its appeal. Upsetting this balance is extraordinarily dangerous.
 
matticus008 said:
Absolutely the market is different--it's much thinner. There are few viable operating systems and even fewer hardware architectures.
I'm not sure what you mean here. In 1995, there was one viable operating system and one viable hardware platform, Windows 95 and ix86 respectively. Today there's still one viable hardware platform, but three viable operating systems - ix86, and Windows XP, GNU/Linux, and Mac OS X, respectively.

Anyone comfortable with "how the operating system is used" can easily switch from one to the other without major problems. For the most part, you can access the same content on all three without issues. Right now, XP has the marketshare because Apple only provides OS X for its own PCs, and most distributions of GNU/Linux aren't as friendly as either XP or OS X.
But history does matter tremendously, not only to stockholders, but to Jobs himself--he has inherited TWO failed attempts at software licensing. Apple's clone debacle, and NeXT's complete failure.
No, he's inherited one, the Apple clones debacle. The NeXT licensing was a success on its own terms. The aim wasn't to make NextStep the next Windows (if it was, it wouldn't have been priced 5-20x as much), the aim was to use it to keep revenue coming in while NeXT repositioned itself as a software development platform company.

In any case, this is irrelevent. The MARKET is different. It is as ridiculous to say "Apple's failure in 1995 means they shouldn't do it now" as it is to say "Microsoft's success in 1981 means they should do it now."
To date, no mixed hardware-software company has successfully licensed their products--most no longer exist at all, others are manufacturers of Intel clones.
That's kind of an odd statement to make. Apple is the only company that has ever done this, with the possible exception of IBM with OS/2, but OS/2 is an entire story in itself, and it was doing pretty well until Microsoft told IBM to drop OS/2. But then OS/2 was Windows compatable, so it's still different. And, of course, it was in a different market.

Apple certainly still exists, so "most no longer exist at all" is false, 1/1 still exists. But Apple is a manufacturer of Intel clones, so I guess the second part works.

NeXT stopped selling hardware when they started selling NeXTStep. Be did too. Commodore never sold AmigaOS seperately, and Amiga Technologies ultimately did the same thing as NeXT and Be, but only when it was too late. Palm also split up, but suffered problems due to the aging PalmOS platform not really being competitive with Windows CE. Atari went bust. So they don't really count as examples.
The market share difference today is...
...irrelevent, and largely affected by the fact Apple's software sales are tied to their hardware sales.
But Apple pays for the software through its hardware. The company generates money by means of selling hardware, and that money alone fuels software development. So from a market perspective, Apple is a hardware company that basically gives its software away.
*sigh* No. Apple sells packages of software and hardware, and it uses the software to sell the packages. I'm not aware of many people who just buy the hardware. If BootCamp results in most Mac owners installing Windows, I'm 99% certain Apple will try to improve Mac OS X if it can to compete, rather than giving up and selling Windows PCs.

Apple also lacks the resources to create broad compatibility for generic PC hardware, and OS X has very limited support for PCI peripherals and older hardware, with companies disinclined to write the drivers themselves. Windows is better at all of these things. After the first wave of "wow, OS X on my PC at last!" customers dries out, along with the accompanying massive drop in Mac sales, they'll be stuck. If Apple drops the ball just once and Microsoft claims its customers back, that's the end of Apple. Apple computers need OS X to sell at profitable rates, and OS X can't survive on broad PC hardware and needs Macs to keep its appeal. Upsetting this balance is extraordinarily dangerous.
There are many good and bad arguments for Apple to sell OS X for "whitebox" PCs. My point is that the "They've done it before" one is bogus. It's not relevent. It's actually moronic. They screwed it up, at a time when even if they hadn't, they'd have had problems anyway. The market conditions are right today, the question is would Apple be better off if it became an operating systems vendor instead of selling the whole widget? Not can they make it successful. In my view, they can, but that doesn't mean it's the best option for them.
 
peharri said:
I'm not sure what you mean here. In 1995, there was one viable operating system and one viable hardware platform, Windows 95 and ix86 respectively. Today there's still one viable hardware platform, but three viable operating systems - ix86, and Windows XP, GNU/Linux, and Mac OS X, respectively.
Why 1995? I'm talking about the whole early 90s--there were several operating systems that commanded a sizeable market and Windows was still far from the 90% mark. In terms of hardware approaches, there were several which showed promise but never really took off. Today, there is almost no independent development, the point being that all have reached out for compatibility have effectively dissolved.

No, he's inherited one, the Apple clones debacle. The NeXT licensing was a success on its own terms. The aim wasn't to make NextStep the next Windows (if it was, it wouldn't have been priced 5-20x as much), the aim was to use it to keep revenue coming in while NeXT repositioned itself as a software development platform company.
Which also failed to gain traction. NeXT was widely respected, but never popular. NeXT licensing happened because they couldn't sell their own hardware, so they switched to a more mainstream platform. When that didn't work, they transitioned into their "software development" phase and created OpenStep.

In any case, this is irrelevent. The MARKET is different.
Exactly right, but the current market makes Apple more reliant on its hardware sales, not less.

That's kind of an odd statement to make. Apple is the only company that has ever done this.
Patently untrue. IBM couldn't fight Microsoft (Apple can't, either). AS/400 didn't work out too well for HP, despite its high potential, because Microsoft took steps to make its products more appealing to businesses. Then there are the examples you mention below:

NeXT stopped selling hardware when they started selling NeXTStep. Be did too. Commodore never sold AmigaOS seperately, and Amiga Technologies ultimately did the same thing as NeXT and Be, but only when it was too late. Palm also split up, but suffered problems due to the aging PalmOS platform not really being competitive with Windows CE. Atari went bust. So they don't really count as examples.
How is it that they don't count? They're all companies that couldn't compete in both markets, released one of the two, and then collapsed entirely. These are spread across 15 years and multiple different situations and market conditions, and none of them ended well.

...irrelevent, and largely affected by the fact Apple's software sales are tied to their hardware sales.
No, not irrelevant. The current situation and the current market are very much stacked against Apple, and regardless of who licensed what, today's market share differential is the critical market force that needs to be overcome.

*sigh* No. Apple sells packages of software and hardware, and it uses the software to sell the packages.
The movement of Mac hardware is the sales vector. The software is an input expense, just like the keyboards. It's a purely perceptual difference. Most of the software that leaves Apple is not "sold" and cannot be accounted for as a sale. The fact that it drives the sales is financially unimportant--they don't deduct a portion from each Mac sale and move it into "software" revenue. From an accounting perspective, it's a 100% hardware sale. That's why they're considered primarily a hardware company--hardware accounts for the overwhelming majority of revenue.

I basically agree with you on your assessment of conditions, but I disagree with your interpretation that those conditions indicate that now is the "right" time for a potential licensing attempt. The high level of consumer interest is not sustainable. Vista will be out soon, and Apple can't guarantee the "Mac experience" beyond Apple hardware--OS X would fall flatly on its face and the newness of Vista will likely satisfy the thirsts of the majority of people itching for OS X, especially with news of Leopard being so scarce. If anything, the right time would have been moving the Intel announcement up a few months and releasing it on, say, Sony Vaios--let the PC manufacturers do the Intel test run (it would have helped with the compatibility problems) and still be far enough away from Vista that a significant chunk of the market could be captured.

I don't think the "what they did in the past" card should be overplayed, but it definitely plays a role.
 
I can't understand all these "Apple is a hardware company" v "Apple is a software company" arguments. Neither is completely true - you can't buy a Mac without the OS & bundled software, and you can't buy OSX, iLife, or it's pro apps and install them on any PC (legally, at least).

Apple is a solutions company, always has been. When you buy a Mac, you buy an integrated hardware, OS & applications solution. When you buy an iPod, you're using an integrated iPod hardware and iTunes software & download service solution.
 
..ok..ahem..."bye bye Avie..."

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/189675/


...hello PLAN9?

http://cm.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/9grid/



Some have said if/when Apple decides on issues like "Cell Processors", 256-bit operating systems, LCARS interfaces...HAL 9000 units at your local Apple Store (along with you personal servant Robot..ahem)..that perhaps, there shoulda coulda woulda been nice if some time "back then"..in the early 2000's..Cupertino and its brain trusts (Avie you can still participate...just reactivate your consulting career..call it "MY NeXT Programmer"..onward)..that a (wait for it) new approach might have been:

a nice new CLEAN SHEET OF PAPER operating system...

...one reason I posted the Darwin CODA page URL...there are also CELL Os's ..other experimental stuff at Stanford Steve could go back in and steal,

(hey Steve..steal us a nice 14 year old child computing prodigy....)

..anyway.

Developers want a break from the IBM breath on my neck all day long pace..
and besides..we are coming up on that "software engineering millstone"..predicted for the early part of this century right?

That soon most computers will have to program themselves..because of "complexity issues"..and that "no-one programmer or programmers" (except for the Redmond Brain Farm) could possibly complete all these "external taskings" by one methodology (read system, software, language or concept).

That is why they are looking at Cell OS, CODA's and its variants..and all kinds
of real poopy head nonsense..just in time for the next planetary information-space emergency.

Rememeber they DID have some Y2K breakdowns..just not in "info-aware"
locations..like the Swedish Air Force.

WW
 
Leopard Will Be The Key To Hyperthreading Efficiencies On PPC Quads Too

milo said:
I don't know. Frankly, I don't care if they update the OS to 64 on PPC. If they'd just get Logic to use more than 4 gigs of ram, that would be plenty.

Well, that and getting Logic to use more than two of the four processors on a quad.
I'll second that Milo. Seems like the next version of Logic needs to release that ram limit as its primary advancement. Perhaps that will be something they will put out as a free update soon. Have you asked them about this?

I don't see any point in giving up the PPC Quad for a First Gen Intel Quad anyway. We're only a year away from 8 cores inside right now and meanwhile Adobe's CS2 is not going Intel native until then either. I'm excited about how much better performance we may see on the original Quads with Leopard on-board.
 
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