If apple were to drop carbon from the system, theres nothing stopping them from creating a plugin to help those apps that still use carbon. kind of how they had rosetta.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Mac OS X 10.6 Called 'Snow Leopard', All Cocoa?
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
That sounds pretty cool, but what happens to the "Mac market"? Why buy a Mac when you can get a cheap PC and put Snow Leopard on it?
I honestly don't want it to happen, but it sounds so crazy that it's almost believable. I want OS X to stay on beautiful machines! lol
I think the Mac Market will still thrive. There are enough people (such as you and I) who love beautiful machines, can afford them, and will buy them, that there's still quite a large market for the Apple machines.
Impossible...
I couldnt do any research, as I had to...
...get my free Leopard t-shirt on the day of release!
(sorry, yes, my brain was contaminated with Jobbos RDF)
Hmm, crazy thought - maybe like with any purchase, the consumer should research before buying, read reviews, blogs etc., read other users' experiences, get compatibility issue information, and never ever buy the first version of any product.
Nah, who am I kidding?
I couldnt do any research, as I had to...
...get my free Leopard t-shirt on the day of release!
(sorry, yes, my brain was contaminated with Jobbos RDF)
And as such, they should be able to store, say, a document without the need to run it through iTunes. It's not even close to forgiveable.
We're talking about a semi-capable music player based on flash memory. THey deliberately crippled it, so one couldn't do it without going through iTunes. Hell, even the crappiest taiwanese usbstickplayer can do it. It doesn't matter if Macs have target disk mode: It's not likely I will pocket my MBP, now is it?
Ah, yes. That would explain why our Macs have Target disk mode
Seriously, even a cheap ass phone can be used as a mass storage device. PDA's, many times more capable than the iPhone - ALL of them can be used in disk mode. It's not about security and what have you. It's about getting people tied into iTunes.
Yes amongst other things.
However, even such a basic feature, they purposely removed it, all in order to tie people into a _business scheme_, nothing more, nothing less.
But the real point is, that unlike someone (can't remember who) said, they have indeed crippled their devices over time, removing features, even if they did add other "features".
I haven't read the previous 17 pages so I don't know if someone already mentioned this but:
Do you think that rumors of 10.6 being 64-bit Intel only could be because the kernel is going to be 64-bit? If they were moving the current 32-bit kernel to 64-bit, it would make sense to focus only on the Intel implementation and devote more time to optimization. Still a 64-bit kernel would require new device drivers, and it seems kind of cruel to spring this on device manufactures at WWDC giving them only 6 months if 10.6 is launching in January.
Do you think that rumors of 10.6 being 64-bit Intel only could be because the kernel is going to be 64-bit? If they were moving the current 32-bit kernel to 64-bit, it would make sense to focus only on the Intel implementation and devote more time to optimization. Still a 64-bit kernel would require new device drivers, and it seems kind of cruel to spring this on device manufactures at WWDC giving them only 6 months if 10.6 is launching in January.
The whole 64-bit only thing is probably the weakest part of the rumor. It just doesn't make sense to expend so much effort when only the heavier applications need more RAM addressing.
The PPC thing is more plausible given that Apple said this wouldn't be a feature laden release so many on PPC would probably just stay on Leopard and skip 10.6.
I guess it really is time to start thinking about retiring the ol' G5
nooooo
my G5 quad just work fine right now...
but i will retire my powermac G4, Mac Mini G4 and ibook G4...sad...very sad indeed.
Cocoa wrappers for everything? One thing I like about OS X is that they use a given technology where it works best, instead of trying to it everywhere like some kind of "golden hammer."
For example OO is exceptionally good for GUI, collection and device driver libraries, due to the natural inheritence hierarchy in these. But for other things, such an simple opening and reading of files, procedural style APIs are just fine. OO wrappers just for the sake of OO wrappers is being purist instead of practical. Reminds me of Java where even your main() function has to be a method of an object!
For example OO is exceptionally good for GUI, collection and device driver libraries, due to the natural inheritence hierarchy in these. But for other things, such an simple opening and reading of files, procedural style APIs are just fine. OO wrappers just for the sake of OO wrappers is being purist instead of practical. Reminds me of Java where even your main() function has to be a method of an object!
Mac OS X is never going to be available on non-Apple hardware. Any sane person would never pay more for an iMac when they could get a cheap PC for a thousand dollars cheaper that also runs a fully supported version of Mac OS X.
Apple killed the clone market 11 years ago for a reason.
Steve Jobs & promises
Just remember that Steve Jobs is more like a used car salesman that anything else I can think of. He may be a good used car salesman, but a used ar salesman by any count. That means that he can do anything he wants to to make the sale. Keeping his word is just one of those things that he doesn't need to do in his opinion.
Bill the TaxMan
Mac User since the first Mac 128 in 1984
Pretty sure Apple promised they wouldn't be dropping support for PPC in 10.6.
Then again, they also promised they'd never use integrated GPUs... Or drop features from the iPod.
Just remember that Steve Jobs is more like a used car salesman that anything else I can think of. He may be a good used car salesman, but a used ar salesman by any count. That means that he can do anything he wants to to make the sale. Keeping his word is just one of those things that he doesn't need to do in his opinion.
Bill the TaxMan
Mac User since the first Mac 128 in 1984
overpriced?
Apple machines aren't "extremely overpriced", by any means. A hand-built equivalent to the current Mac Pro would have cost about the same in parts, at the time of the Mac Pro's release. When I bought my Mac Pro I priced out the alternative of building a PC, since I was already running a hackintosh while waiting for the release of the Penryns. The only machines that are probably overpriced are the Macbook Pro and Macbook Air. The Macbook, and iMac (for which there isn't really a vanilla PC alternative) are very reasonably priced, and as I pointed out above, the Mac Pro is about on par. Now, obviously, the PC equivalents will drop in price quickly, as the parts become more widely available. But still...
This whole *super exclusive, super expensive* thing with Macs has long passed. Maybe 5 years ago, but not today.
--------------------
As for the all Cocoa thing, I'd LOVE to see Cocoa wrappers around the Core Audio stuff. I'd finally get into writing fully native Mac software if that happened!
w.
Apple machines aren't "extremely overpriced", by any means. A hand-built equivalent to the current Mac Pro would have cost about the same in parts, at the time of the Mac Pro's release. When I bought my Mac Pro I priced out the alternative of building a PC, since I was already running a hackintosh while waiting for the release of the Penryns. The only machines that are probably overpriced are the Macbook Pro and Macbook Air. The Macbook, and iMac (for which there isn't really a vanilla PC alternative) are very reasonably priced, and as I pointed out above, the Mac Pro is about on par. Now, obviously, the PC equivalents will drop in price quickly, as the parts become more widely available. But still...
This whole *super exclusive, super expensive* thing with Macs has long passed. Maybe 5 years ago, but not today.
--------------------
As for the all Cocoa thing, I'd LOVE to see Cocoa wrappers around the Core Audio stuff. I'd finally get into writing fully native Mac software if that happened!
w.
Why di they?
Steve Jobs killed the Clones because the Clone makers produced a better computer at a lower price at a faster schedule. One excuse was because the Clones took away the high end Mac market. But remember what Steve Jobs did. He introduced the iMac (the low end) & killed the PowerMac 9500/9600 high end replacement. So for some of us he is still operating things with only giving out what he wants you to know at that time. When things change he rewrites history as he sees fit.
Bill the TaxMan
Steve Jobs killed the Clones because the Clone makers produced a better computer at a lower price at a faster schedule. One excuse was because the Clones took away the high end Mac market. But remember what Steve Jobs did. He introduced the iMac (the low end) & killed the PowerMac 9500/9600 high end replacement. So for some of us he is still operating things with only giving out what he wants you to know at that time. When things change he rewrites history as he sees fit.
Bill the TaxMan
Sorry to hijack the thread but
Linux is a Unix - Like System it uses similar commands to Mac OS X
butLinux is a Unix - Like System it uses similar commands to Mac OS X
Mac OS X is an officially certified Unix operating system, similar to Solaris. Linux is Unix-like, yes. They are similar but not the same.Sorry to hijack the thread
Linux is a Unix - Like System it uses similar commands to Mac OS X
Macs can continue being "over-priced" as long as they continue being as stable as a rock with incredible performance years after purchase
I couldnt get either out of my "cheap" PC's for years
I couldnt get either out of my "cheap" PC's for years
I really hope they don't drop PPC support just yet. I have too many programs that need the support. Eventually i will be upgrading those programs but money doesn't grow on trees. So if they do, I will stick to Leopard. Or else I will need to find at least $2,000 to buy new software. Bummer. It may be for the better in the long run. But this is all too soon.
Only they should not charge their users for it: we expect that from our OS and not as an optional upgrade. Come on, I'd rather wait for 10.6 and get all the way up to 10.5.20 than be charged for that. If microsoft charged for Service Packs that aim to do much of the same, we'd all be screaming about the outrage. Christ, what are we to Apple|: customers or an investment capital resource?
Board meeting:
CFO: We need more capital Steve.
Jobs: How's OSX 10.5.5 doing?
COO: Pretty much there.
Jobs: Well strip out all the really good stuff, and I'll market it next week as 10.6 and we'll release in Jan. CFO, how's that for you?
CFO: Our liquidity is good until at least then.
Jobs: Done deal then.
So here is what I think we are about to see at the Keynote: (Maybe i missed them, but... I'm surprised not to see any comments such as these yet in any other threads about Snow)
Me service to be OS X Only (with a yearly sub fee to use it)
Application Store for OS X (with apple getting a kick back on every app sold for OSX)
One More Thing . . .
We've ported a few of our major applications over to Windows.. and as it turns out, while people really enjoy having iTunes and now Safari to use while in Windows... what people really want is to use these great apps in OS X.
Folks are really not happy about Vista.. Folks are even more unhappy about Vista Certified machines that can't run the full Vista Experience, and the fractured and confusing experience of Ultimate, Business, Home, 64, etc.
Hell has frozen over yet again...
Introducing Snow Leopard: Generic X86 version of Leopard to become available that will run on ANY Intel powered Vista Compatible Intel Machine... $129.. Available on Machines THIS holiday season from Dell, HP, Asus, etc. Available Retail for everyone with Vista Compatible certified systems in January.
We've partnered with ALL major Intel partners to give full driver support in 10.6 Snow Leopard for all Vista Compatible systems ever sold with the MS Vista Logo Program. All of these users will have the same user experience, the same great pre-bundled applications that Mac users have grown to love... right out of the box.
Steve will bring out Michael Dell... and show that all of the demo's he showed during the keynote were done using a Dell desktop. Dell will talk about the opportunity users now have. Steve will thank Michael and then review the keynote notes.
People will be loving iPhone all over the world, now they can love OS X all over the world much faster than Apple alone currently has the ability to get out there.
With Me services and the OS X App Store the migration will be profitable, a revenue stream will be there for Apple even though they didn't sell the hardware. They will remind that iLife/iWork can be bought and will run on the 10.6 Snow Leopard just as wonderfully as they do today on 10.5.
Apple won't exit the hardware business. The Apple store is a great model the industrial design that core Apple customers love, and the industry as a whole admires. Mac Pro, iMac and MacBook/MacBook Pro line will stay. Mac Mini will go away, instead of bringing your own Keyboard, Monitor, and Mouse ... you can bring any vista compatible machine along for the ride
Bootcamp will be useable on these machines as well to help with the install and migration. Rosetta will be the only missing piece for the Snow Leopard build. No PPC applications will run on the Snow Mac. (Which isn't an issue for most folks with all major applications now being ported to Intel)
Checkmate!
I think with this move, Apple could more than double their worldwide market share in 1 year. 10.5 Leopard will stay up to day and have feature parity with 10.6 Snow Leopard (with the exception of features that require new hardware), although Snow will no longer support installs on PPC machines.
10.5 Leopard users can upgrade to 10.6 Snow on their existing hardware for $50. (for most users there will be no need for it).
Together the parallel development of 10.5 Leopard and 10.6 Snow Leopard will mark the end of Apples support for the PPC line of computers.
Thoughts?
I had a nightmare similar to that one time.
So here is what I think we are about to see at the Keynote: (Maybe i missed them, but... I'm surprised not to see any comments such as these yet in any other threads about Snow)
Me service to be OS X Only (with a yearly sub fee to use it)
Application Store for OS X (with apple getting a kick back on every app sold for OSX)
One More Thing . . .
We've ported a few of our major applications over to Windows.. and as it turns out, while people really enjoy having iTunes and now Safari to use while in Windows... what people really want is to use these great apps in OS X.
Folks are really not happy about Vista.. Folks are even more unhappy about Vista Certified machines that can't run the full Vista Experience, and the fractured and confusing experience of Ultimate, Business, Home, 64, etc.
Hell has frozen over yet again...
Introducing Snow Leopard: Generic X86 version of Leopard to become available that will run on ANY Intel powered Vista Compatible Intel Machine... $129.. Available on Machines THIS holiday season from Dell, HP, Asus, etc. Available Retail for everyone with Vista Compatible certified systems in January.
We've partnered with ALL major Intel partners to give full driver support in 10.6 Snow Leopard for all Vista Compatible systems ever sold with the MS Vista Logo Program. All of these users will have the same user experience, the same great pre-bundled applications that Mac users have grown to love... right out of the box.
Steve will bring out Michael Dell... and show that all of the demo's he showed during the keynote were done using a Dell desktop. Dell will talk about the opportunity users now have. Steve will thank Michael and then review the keynote notes.
People will be loving iPhone all over the world, now they can love OS X all over the world much faster than Apple alone currently has the ability to get out there.
With Me services and the OS X App Store the migration will be profitable, a revenue stream will be there for Apple even though they didn't sell the hardware. They will remind that iLife/iWork can be bought and will run on the 10.6 Snow Leopard just as wonderfully as they do today on 10.5.
Apple won't exit the hardware business. The Apple store is a great model the industrial design that core Apple customers love, and the industry as a whole admires. Mac Pro, iMac and MacBook/MacBook Pro line will stay. Mac Mini will go away, instead of bringing your own Keyboard, Monitor, and Mouse ... you can bring any vista compatible machine along for the ride
Bootcamp will be useable on these machines as well to help with the install and migration. Rosetta will be the only missing piece for the Snow Leopard build. No PPC applications will run on the Snow Mac. (Which isn't an issue for most folks with all major applications now being ported to Intel)
Checkmate!
I think with this move, Apple could more than double their worldwide market share in 1 year. 10.5 Leopard will stay up to day and have feature parity with 10.6 Snow Leopard (with the exception of features that require new hardware), although Snow will no longer support installs on PPC machines.
10.5 Leopard users can upgrade to 10.6 Snow on their existing hardware for $50. (for most users there will be no need for it).
Together the parallel development of 10.5 Leopard and 10.6 Snow Leopard will mark the end of Apples support for the PPC line of computers.
Thoughts?
User experience suffers when running on substandard/mismatched components - this would create a path toward world domination for OS X though.
In all honesty, I want Apple to grow, but not that big. I like the idea of staying in the minority. With more people, as seen with the iPod, being a Mac user really loses its flare. Even now, I am no longer the only person in the coffee shop with a Mac. I once paraded around my PowerBook with pride. Either way, letting Mac OS X boot on every machine ruins any "mac community" Then we will start needing things like serials and activation. The whole "Only runs on a Mac" is really built in serials and activation. Apple makes their money on hardware, while I doubt it will hurt the hardware sales much. Its just something I rather not see. Hell, even owning a Mac anymore doesn't mean you are a "Mac User" I once went up to a guy who had a MacBook and asked how he liked OS X, he had never used OS X in his life, the machine came pre-installed with only Windows. *Sigh*
Well, the biggest difference is not the certification but the fact that Linux is derived from System V with a lot of GNU (GNU's not Unix, i.e. not officially) whereas Mac OS X is derived from BSD (mostly NetBSD).
The other big difference is that Mac OS X's UI is completly proprietary (i.e. NOT Unix) whereas Linux has different UI choices (GNOME, KDE, ), which are built on the standard X-Window protocol.
But now back to something completly different
"Snow Leopard" would make sense for a free or cheap update that adds a lot of small improvements but no completly new features, i.e. just a "polished" Leopard. However, it might include features originally planned for Leopard - such as running a bootcamp installation while MacOS sleeps.