Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
It's not regardless; it could run it. But they don't have to develop a PPC version, they already have it. This is a common code base; essentially all they have to do is recompile. It requires some testing resources, true, but they're already set up for that. To support an existing customer base, some with systems less than three years old, it's not that much of a stretch.

I don't see why people who do not have PPC systems should really care about this. Do you really think it harms Intel system development? Because I don't see that it does at all.

So all they have to do is press a button, to recompile the code for PPC? If it's that simple then there's no reason they shouldn't do it. For some reason I just can't imagine it being that simple to have it working flawlessly on a different architecture but I'm no software engineer. Could MS do the same with windows were they to switch to PPC?
 
I think the idea of having Snow Leopard as a sort-of maintenance release is pretty great. It's time to concentrate on optimisations for the x86 architecture, and to clean up how things like iTunes, Safari and especially QuickTime hook into the OS... a reboot shouldn't be necessary for installing updates to any of those three.

With Vista being a bit of a snail (running on like-for-like hardware with XP) I think Apple have seen an opportunity to promote themselves as the fastest, most stable mainstream OS. I don't think Leopard's numbers versus Vista would be that amazing, which is why a tuned up Snow Leopard release might be necessary.
 
So all they have to do is press a button, to recompile the code for PPC? If it's that simple then there's no reason they shouldn't do it. For some reason I just can't imagine it being that simple to have it working flawlessly on a different architecture but I'm no software engineer. Could MS do the same with windows were they to switch to PPC?

You can compile for multiple platforms, but it isn't going to be as fast as a piece of software optimized for a specific platform unless you put in a lot of extra time, money, and effort.
 
So all they have to do is press a button, to recompile the code for PPC?

Essentially, yes. But really they don't even have to do that. I'm sure their build process already automatically creates both versions.

If it's that simple then there's no reason they shouldn't do it. For some reason I just can't imagine it being that simple to have it working flawlessly on a different architecture but I'm no software engineer. Could MS do the same with windows were they to switch to PPC?

Apple isn't switching to PPC; they already have both versions, and they've had PPC longer than Intel so it is even more stable. I am a software engineer, I have worked on Unix OS development for 28 years, and I currently work for a company that produces a version of Unix for two different architectures (not Apple, but you might be able to guess which). It works this way: there is a small amount of code that is architecture-dependent (PPC vs. x86, in Apple's case) and a much, much larger code base that is common, a little of which is platform-dependent (like MacBook vs. iMac vs. Mac Pro). The code that is specific to PPC has been around for ages, longer than the x86 code, and by now it is thoroughly debugged. All of the new features are implemented in common code. There will be some differences based on platform, but those will probably affect the Intel platforms more than PPC.

Testing is the major resource that has to be committed to continuing the PPC line. But it's not like they have to ramp that up from scratch; it just means continuing their current process. I would guess that Apple's main manufacturing and burn-in and systems testing is done overseas, and those assembly lines are already in place.

There are no technical reasons, as far as I see, for Apple to drop PPC at the present time. If they do, it is driven by marketing - simply the desire to force customers to purchase new hardware in order to get the latest OS features. (I know the rumor says that the next OS will not introduce new features, but we'll have to wait and see about that.)
 
You can compile for multiple platforms, but it isn't going to be as fast as a piece of software optimized for a specific platform unless you put in a lot of extra time, money, and effort.

But that's a separate issue. Optimizing performance on Intel platforms can be done whether or not support for PPC is maintained, it's the same amount of work in either case. Architecture-specific optimizations are going to be done either in the architecture-specific code, which separate anyway, or in the compiler itself, which has different versions for PPC and Intel. Most of the code is architecture-independent, and by its very nature any changes there should apply equally to both.
 
The problem is that you're looking at this from your perspective, not Apple's. You're saying that Apple should do what's best for you, but Apple will do what's best for Apple. It may not be worth Apple's time spending time and resources developing a PPC version of 10.6, regardless of whether your machine could run it or not. They're under no obligation to support an obsolete architecture, your Mac will function just as well the day you bought it.

Apple don't care for you (or any of their customers), they only care for themselves unfortunately. They will do what will bring in the most cash, and force users to upgrade. They will only keep customers happy enough to keep them upgrading (which is why I suspect we saw a PPC version of Leopard at all).

It 'aint pretty but it's business. Same for everything else electronic...
Yes, you are correct, Apple is in the business world, and their goal is to make money. But, perhaps it's just me, It seems Apple has always been the one to take the extra step. They've nearly always done something unexpected for the benefit of the consumer. More so in the eary 00's, but now as well.

I don't think Apple is just going to drop PPC, just like that. It just seems so un-Appleish. At the very least, I think they'll announce that 10.6 will not be PPC, instead of just springing it on us when they launch it.
 
At the very least, I think they'll announce that 10.6 will not be PPC, instead of just springing it on us when they launch it.

That's why it's speculated that it would be announced on Monday at WWDC, with the fact that it doesn't support PPC very clearly stated. It's still quite a ways away regardless, January at the earliest, so they wouldn't exactly be springing it on you at launch.

jW
 

Yes, you are correct, Apple is in the business world, and their goal is to make money. But, perhaps it's just me, It seems Apple has always been the one to take the extra step. They've nearly always done something unexpected for the benefit of the consumer. More so in the eary 00's, but now as well.

I don't Apple is just going to drop PPC, just like that. It just seems so un-Appleish. At the very least, I think they'll announce that 10.6 will not be PPC, instead of just springing it on us when they launch it.

We shall see on Monday. I'm so excited!!! :D
 
If you look more closely, the "16-bit subsystem" of 32-bit Windows NT has been changed to the "half native bit-width" subsystem in x64 NT.

In Windows 64-bit, the environment for 32-bit applications is in many ways the same as the virtual environment for 16-bit applications on 32-bit Windows NT.

After 13 years, the need for emulating a 16-bit environment was basically non-existent - so Microsoft redefined the emulator to be the 32-bit on 64-bit environment.

It is not the same, except in the name "Windows on Windows". Win16 applications on Windows NT all ran in one process, ntvdm.exe.

Win32 i386 processes still run on the x86-64 Windows kernels, with no virtualization. There is only some translation necessary: registry calls are translated and requests to load DLLs are redirected to a 32-bit only folder. This is hardly different than any other OS's support for running 32-bit programs on a 64-bit kernel.

So all they have to do is press a button, to recompile the code for PPC? If it's that simple then there's no reason they shouldn't do it. For some reason I just can't imagine it being that simple to have it working flawlessly on a different architecture but I'm no software engineer. Could MS do the same with windows were they to switch to PPC?

For well-written software, it really is that simple. Just rewrite the architecture-dependent parts of the kernel and add drivers. Windows NT was once supported on MIPS, Alpha, and PowerPC, although it was rarely used on those platforms. It was also ported to other platforms. Today, it runs on i386, x86-64, and ia64 platforms.
 

Yes, you are correct, Apple is in the business world, and their goal is to make money. But, perhaps it's just me, It seems Apple has always been the one to take the extra step. They've nearly always done something unexpected for the benefit of the consumer. More so in the eary 00's, but now as well.

I don't think Apple is just going to drop PPC, just like that. It just seems so un-Appleish. At the very least, I think they'll announce that 10.6 will not be PPC, instead of just springing it on us when they launch it.

As Apple gets bigger, this kind of thing will happen more and more often... Next thing you know your V1 iPod nano won't work with iTunes.

If you get a company to try to always make everything backwards compatible, it never works out that well, and you end up with a company like Microsoft, where neither the old nor the new stuff works very well.
 
It works this way: there is a small amount of code that is architecture-dependent (PPC vs. x86, in Apple's case) and a much, much larger code base that is common, a little of which is platform-dependent (like MacBook vs. iMac vs. Mac Pro). The code that is specific to PPC has been around for ages, longer than the x86 code, and by now it is thoroughly debugged. All of the new features are implemented in common code. There will be some differences based on platform, but those will probably affect the Intel platforms more than PPC.
Right. But my understanding (and I'm not an OS developer, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the details of the CPU can affect the optimal way to write code that isn't inherently platform-specific. For example, PPC has more registers than x86, but (I believe) x86 is more efficient at accessing memory. So a C function that uses lots of temporary variables may be better for PPC, while a revised version that uses fewer temporary variables and more memory reads may be better for x86. What if a significant number of 10.6 optimizations involve changes like that? In that case what is a performance increase for Intel Macs would actually be slower for PPC Macs. Keeping both versions around substantially increases maintenance and testing costs, and Apple may quite reasonably decide that it's not worth it.
 
Right. But my understanding (and I'm not an OS developer, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the details of the CPU can affect the optimal way to write code that isn't inherently platform-specific. For example, PPC has more registers than x86, but (I believe) x86 is more efficient at accessing memory. So a C function that uses lots of temporary variables may be better for PPC, while a revised version that uses fewer temporary variables and more memory reads may be better for x86. What if a significant number of 10.6 optimizations involve changes like that? In that case what is a performance increase for Intel Macs would actually be slower for PPC Macs. Keeping both versions around substantially increases maintenance and testing costs, and Apple may quite reasonably decide that it's not worth it.

Why make comments about things you don't understand?

If such a hypothetical function existed, it woud be trivial to have multiple versions of it compiled conditionally.
 
Sea mammals and fishes: Orcas, sharks and things like that.

With Apple heading towards mobility and "something in the air", I'd expect raptors (predatory birds): Eagle(s), Kite(s), Hawk(s), Harrier(s), Falcon(s), Owl(s), although I think they'd shy away from the Vulture family...
 
With Apple heading towards mobility and "something in the air", I'd expect raptors (predatory birds): Eagle(s), Kite(s), Hawk(s), Harrier(s), Falcon(s), Owl(s), although I think they'd shy away from the Vulture family...

I actually perceived Apple's "something in the air" as their next OS release :apple: 10.6 Flying Llama
 
Gizmodo is now claiming that their source (tipster/insider) has chimed in with some new information that suggests the PPC architecture will not be dropped.

Again, this is not official and is subject to change given the arrival of developer builds in OS X 10.6.
 
Essentially, yes. But really they don't even have to do that. I'm sure their build process already automatically creates both versions.



Apple isn't switching to PPC; they already have both versions, and they've had PPC longer than Intel so it is even more stable. I am a software engineer, I have worked on Unix OS development for 28 years, and I currently work for a company that produces a version of Unix for two different architectures (not Apple, but you might be able to guess which). It works this way: there is a small amount of code that is architecture-dependent (PPC vs. x86, in Apple's case) and a much, much larger code base that is common, a little of which is platform-dependent (like MacBook vs. iMac vs. Mac Pro). The code that is specific to PPC has been around for ages, longer than the x86 code, and by now it is thoroughly debugged. All of the new features are implemented in common code. There will be some differences based on platform, but those will probably affect the Intel platforms more than PPC.

Testing is the major resource that has to be committed to continuing the PPC line. But it's not like they have to ramp that up from scratch; it just means continuing their current process. I would guess that Apple's main manufacturing and burn-in and systems testing is done overseas, and those assembly lines are already in place.

There are no technical reasons, as far as I see, for Apple to drop PPC at the present time. If they do, it is driven by marketing - simply the desire to force customers to purchase new hardware in order to get the latest OS features. (I know the rumor says that the next OS will not introduce new features, but we'll have to wait and see about that.)

I think the point is that if they're rewriting much of the OS in this build to be optimized for Intel and redoing it as Cocoa native, I think the general idea is that Apple is *NOT* merely maintaining a build of the OS but essentially rewriting it to be Cocoa native. For that reason, there is little benefit for Apple to write whole new parts of the OS for compliance with PowerPC and then optimize said new parts when you're talking about a platform that is deprecated. There are no *NEW* PowerPC machines coming out, there is little desire to write new hunks of code for the old machines when your focus is to move forward. They have maintained code... that is exactly what Leopard is. It's code that is PowerPC-capable and that has been maintained and optimized. With the dawn of 10.6 though, that apparently won't be the case. Rather than get bent out of shape about 10.6 and it's directions... assuming they're true (and it makes sense to me), just hope that if there are any niggling issues that they get fixed by the time the last build of 10.5.x gets released. In other words, get your bug reports in to Apple.

The whole point people are missing is that Apple is *NOT* going to just up and shelve compatibility with Carbon apps. More importantly... They're *NOT* going to render an update to 10.4+ or 10.5+ that makes their update patch *brick* the legacy machines. People are already crying foul about their PowerPC machines not getting the latest bleeding edge code when the reality is, Microsoft and every other software company deprecates hardware as they consider it valid to do so. If the amount of work to rewrite and then maintain code for a platform that is longer for sale is deemed inefficient, it's only logical to scrap it. Those machines will operate as-usual with the current OS that is on them. Apple has been doing this for quite awhile, some beige hardware couldn't run OS X without hacks... some newer PPC colored hardware couldn't run newer versions of OS X (i.e. the G3) even if they could run older versions. You may call this as Apple leaving people high 'n' dry, I consider it a matter of Apple doing what they need to do. I've gotten burned by Copland, Gershwin, and Rhapsody giving way to OS X and it's lack of support for any of my beige hardware. I was able to deal with it...

Moral of the story... this isn't a case of being orphaned. I know everyone would love to be able to stick with older hardware for years upon years upon years but in Apple's defense, if Motorola and IBM had been on their A-game the odds of that happening would've been diminished as well just as they have, it just would've stayed on PPC. Face it, both companies took years to make "minor" improvements. Intel, supposedly on an inferior platform, was able to eat Motorola and IBM's lunch and eventually... it got both kicked to the curb. Intel is delivering where the others failed.

Had the G4 and G5 scaled better than they did, as well as the G3 did for quite awhile, we'd probably still be on PowerPC. The fact we're not is because the industry passed them by. I had a PowerPC mini and from the moment I got it up until the end, it was a solid machine but it wasn't anything that I'd remotely call "speedy". Even with 1 Gig RAM the machines felt like they were merely adequate. By contrast, my dad's new Intel mini (Core 2 Duo) is pretty darn fast. Other than the most strenuous of tasks, it feels about on-par with my 24" iMac. Even there, for what he does... it's very solid and an above-average performer for his needs.

Moral of the story... if you don't need a new machine, don't buy one. Yet at some point Apple is going to have to draw the line, deprecate what needs deprecating, and do what they can to improve the API's and move programmers in the right direction. As even was noted at Google's I/O, one of their execs. said that programmers tend to be "Lazy" because they try to build on new features rather than do what is necessary to revamp the core foundations and weed things out themselves. John Nack of Adobe had previously stated if Adobe hadn't pushed Cocoa-64 on them as their only solution for the future, he doubted Adobe would've ever ported their apps. to a completely Cocoa framework, which would've left Apple supporting and maintaining 2 separate API's concurrently when they're better off with one streamlined API. Otherwise, you have the situation that Windows developers have where they're left with ancient API calls tied to applications that are still relevant circa 2008, or multiple ways of doing the same thing via the same API sets and having to debug how or why things work better or worse in others or how one applications use of a specific call can conflict with others. It's a freaking mess and a big part of why Microsoft has a team looking to streamline the API's.

This doesn't render your machines obsolete, it merely means that going forward there's going to be improvements to hardware and software that you might not be able to use. That is inevitable anyhow, as people with AGP Macs can't use PCI-E cards. People with machines that don't support 4+ Gig of RAM can't fully leverage a 64-bit app. People with Penryn Macs today are not going to be able to use Nehalem's DDR3 RAM. Yet... if you truly *NEED* those things you will save for and buy them as you need them. I ran on beige hardware for years using OS 9 daily long after OS X shipped. I don't miss OS 9 in the least, but... I used what I had 'til I could get something new.

Far as my opinion on what Apple is to do with 10.6... I wager that they probably will release a copy of 10.6 for developers at WWDC. I wager that the build shown at WWDC will show few new features, but mainly be a major rewrite of the non-Cocoa pieces of the OS and a considerable overhaul for speed and performance as per the rumor mill. I also wager though that by the time the system launches in January that there'll be a bunch of functionalities and features added. I could even see Snow Leopard being the codename for the developer release while the final 10.6 release could even be called something else.
 
wow! 10.6. must suck to be a pro tools user. this will set pro tools compatibility with mac operating system back another year. Pro tools still ain't officially compatible leopard yet. glad I use Logic! :D
 
Newbie here and sorry I didn't ( couldn't sit through all 24 pages :eek:) but could this change also be due to the 64 bit Creative Suite 4 coming out in cocoa?

From the NAPP conference this year it was also mentioned that "Apple informed Adobe that it was was dumping carbon".

Mind you many of the PS users/instructors at this conference are Mac users.

Of course I have concerns especially since I use Adobe for digital photography.
 
May have been mentioned, but anyone find it curious there was a big article in this months National Geographic about Snow Leopards?

snow-leopard.jpg



Gotta think it's not coincidence..:rolleyes:
 
wow! 10.6. must suck to be a pro tools user. this will set pro tools compatibility with mac operating system back another year. Pro tools still ain't officially compatible leopard yet. glad I use Logic! :D

Wow, must suck to be Apple and lose market share of pro musicians, pro studios, and semipro musicians because ProTools just happens to be the standard.

Of couse Apple could care less; they're leaving all their pro app users in the dustheap of history because they're going to be selling a gadzillion iPhones, iPods, and iGadgets.

Here's a question for ya and the geniuses (including Steve) at Apple:

Name ONE maker of the most popular transistor radios in the 60's that's still around.:apple:
 
May have been mentioned, but anyone find it curious there was a big article in this months National Geographic about Snow Leopards?

snow-leopard.jpg



Gotta think it's not coincidence..:rolleyes:

There are no coincidences; only corporate mind-***ers.:apple:

Thanks for the incredible advertising photo though! No one can deny it's stunning.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.