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CalBoy said:
Do you have solid evidence to support this, or is it just your gut feeling?

A strong gut feeling.

If OS X survives beyond 10.5...it will have been around for 10 years.

i highly doubt apple will have an OS base last that long.



p.s. fine...i guess non iPhone news is better than only iPhone news..regardless how crumby
 
When did you get your G5? If it was early last year, I'm sure it will make it through six years. I remember that Jobs had issued a statement saying that new OSs were going to be spaced out more now. I don't think we can expect 10.6 until about 2010 (giving it a three year update cycle).

I bought the very last rev G5, six months before the Mac Pros came out. I bought it at the end of March. The reason? I got 12 months same as cash from Best Buy online. I couldn't pass it up.
 
Obviously

Why is anyone surprised or angered by this? By the time 10.6 would be out, the PPC computers would be almost five years old and completely obsolete. Moreover, do you want Apple to waste thousands of hours to allow 10.6 to run on PPC and to test everything or do you want a better OS with more features, fewer bugs and better performance? It's a question of priorities and Apple sees that they must focus on what will grow their business and make the most users happy. I fully support this if is true. In fact, I would complain if they planned on wasting valuable time to support PPC just to please the 10% of anachronistic fossils while hurting the 90%.
 
Why is anyone surprised or angered by this? By the time 10.6 would be out, the PPC computers would be almost five years old and completely obsolete. Moreover, do you want Apple to waste thousands of hours to allow 10.6 to run on PPC and to test everything or do you want a better OS with more features, fewer bugs and better performance? It's a question of priorities and Apple sees that they must focus on what will grow their business and make the most users happy. I fully support this if is true. In fact, I would complain if they planned on wasting valuable time to support PPC just to please the 10% of anachronistic fossils while hurting the 90%.

You're forgetting the many businesses that have invested in PPC over the years. This isn't just about consumers. If my experience is any indication, businesses will want to use the equipment they have for as long as possible. The company I work for used Classic until a few weeks ago. Apple would be extremely stupid to ignore companies that use their products. It would cost them money in the long run. Remember, Macs are expensive to begin with. Any company that invests in their business with Apple computers wants to see longevity in their hardware. So far, they have. If Apple were to ignore them, it would come at a price, believe me.
 
It makes perfect sense to drop PPC support. Executables will be much smaller if they're compiled and optimized just for x86.

Why are PPC owners acting like it's the end of the world? Just because they can't run the very latest OSX doesn't make their computers instantly useless. They can still run what they're currently running. As for new prorgrams - if they are going to require the new 10.6 to run, there's a good chance they will also require much more speed than a G5 could provide. If you want to keep your G5 useful, just run the latest software that runs on your PPC and be happy with that.

Look at the computer I'm using! The OS on my computer hasn't been updated since 1993 and it's still useful. I don't whine about having a newer OS because I know that it'd be too slow and consume too much resourses to be useful anyway.
 
Like business will keep computers more then three years in the administration/accounting. I am writing off my computers in two-three years. Meaning by 2009 my latest Apple Computers are ready to be replaced :)
 
It makes perfect sense to drop PPC support. Executables will be much smaller if they're compiled and optimized just for x86.

Why are PPC owners acting like it's the end of the world? Just because they can't run the very latest OSX doesn't make their computers instantly useless. They can still run what they're currently running. As for new prorgrams - if they are going to require the new 10.6 to run, there's a good chance the will also require much more speed than a G5 could provide. If you want to keep your G5 userful, just run the latest software that runs on your PPC and be happy with that.

Some of us need to be able to keep up with the latest software due to the nature of our businesses. I've always bought Mac towers because they let me do so for at least 6+ years, making them well worth the money spent. If that changes, I'll be more than a bit upset about it. My G4 tower allowed me to run current software relatively efficiently for 6 years with minimal upgrade costs. I expect the same from my last rev G5. That is why I have stuck with Apple since the mid 90's.
 
Some of us need to be able to keep up with the latest software due to the nature of our businesses.

Yes. In your case I understand completely. However, I'd be more angry at the suppliers of your business software if they drop support for OS 10.5 just after 10.6 is released.
 
Yes. In your case I understand completely. However, I'd be more angry at the suppliers of your business software if they drop support for OS 10.5 just after 10.6 is released.

You do have a point. However, given that G5s are 64 bit, It seems silly to me not make software that they can use. They are still high-end computers that should be useful for quite some time.
 
A strong gut feeling.

If OS X survives beyond 10.5...it will have been around for 10 years.

i highly doubt apple will have an OS base last that long.
I haven't made up my mind on this yet. It all depends on the future...which isn't say much:p

p.s. fine...i guess non iPhone news is better than only iPhone news..regardless how crumby
It's rather difficult to argue with that premise;):D

I bought the very last rev G5, six months before the Mac Pros came out. I bought it at the end of March. The reason? I got 12 months same as cash from Best Buy online. I couldn't pass it up.
I think you'll get quite a few years out of your machine. Like I said, we're probably going to see a slowdown in new OS revisions. I think, based on just a gut feeling, that after Leopard, the next OS won't be out until late 2010 or early 2011. Add time for stability, and your PowerMac will be just old enough to go to that special farm...
 
When Mac OS X takes away enough of the market share from Microsoft's x86-only operating systems, hopefully there will be enough potential revenue for IBM/Motorola to continue PowerPC development for Apple computers. The more Mac users there are, the more money IBM/Motorola can make from selling PowerPC chips. This will surely lead to much faster chips and hopefully we can make the last major CISC architecture obsolete.

This doesn't make sense. How are Apple putting money into IBM and Motorola by buying Intel processors? Why would IBM/Motorola be developing PPC chips for a company that no longer uses them?

In fact Microsoft, with the XBox 360 are now a bigger customer for PPC chips than Apple.
 
Like business will keep computers more then three years in the administration/accounting. I am writing off my computers in two-three years. Meaning by 2009 my latest Apple Computers are ready to be replaced :)
I'm hoping you account for the land-fill costs of trashing every 2-3 years. ;)
 
I didn't want to, but here's my post anyway...

  1. Yes, it's very very much work on Apple's part to maintain different platforms OS-wise.
  2. It's not so much work to support PPC on legacy software. Apple will not generally drop support for PPC apps when they release 10.6, because this would effectively shut out PPC users. Just think of how many apps run fine with 10.3.9 TODAY.
  3. If you can't run the latest OS doesn't mean your computer will explode immediately. It just means that it is not powerful enough to handle the latest features like multi-touch gesture control or whatever they come up with.
Last year I got me a MacBook, and it ran circles round my 1.8DP G5 in some aspects. Recently, I upgraded my desktop to a MacPro, and I might be in for an upgrade even before 10.6 comes out (I'm a on Logic Pro—performance is vital.)
 
PowerPC architecture is indeed a much better architecture.
Yes, it is. But if it the CHIPS are not kept up to date, then it doesn't matter. A Mac Pro running native code blows the doors off a Power Mac G5 running native code. Even at the same clock speed and number of cores, the Mac Pro wins. (See linked article later in this post.) And an eight-core 3.0 GHz Mac Pro completely obliterates a quad-core 2.5 GHz Power Mac G5. And this disparity will only increase. IBM hasn't updated the PowerPC 970 at all since the dual-core models in 2005. Not even a speed increase. Yet Intel is about to release all-new models that are even faster than the present models. Heck, Apple was even 'overclocking' the G5. IBM's max specification calls for a processor bus of 1066 MHz (Apple used 1250 MHz in the dual-core and 1350 MHz in the single-core,) and a max core speed of 2.0 GHz (Apple used 2.5 GHz in the dual-core and 2.7 GHz in the single-core.)

The main difference between x86 and PowerPC is that x86 uses CISC and PowerPC uses RISC. (More information near the bottom.)
No, the main difference between the x86 and PowerPC is that the x86 uses the "IA" (for "Intel Architecture", also called IA-32, also called x86; the 64-bit variety called x86-64, AMD-64, or EM64T,) instruction set, while PowerPC uses the PowerPC instruction set. "Instruction sets" do not necessarily have ANYTHING to do with the core of the processor. All modern "x86" processors are really, at their core, RISC processors. The Transmeta Crusoe, and the original Intel Itanium chips are both "Very Long Instruction Word" (VLIW) cores, that are completely separate from either CISC or RISC, yet both can run "IA" code natively thanks to internal hardware translators. (The same way a Core 2 Duo internally translates IA code into its internal micro-ops. Only the Itanium was designed to natively run "IA-64" code, and the translation layer is only there for compatibility; while the Core 2 Duo has no mechanism for directly using its native instruction set.) And, heck, if Transmeta had wanted to do so, they could have had their processors emulate the PowerPC instruction set just as easily as the x86 instruction set.

If you are wondering why the inferior architecture is currently faster, you can thank your friends at Microsoft for monopolizing the operating system market and only supporting the x86 architecture. This gave Intel and AMD a huge lead in the desktop market in terms of cash flow.

Actually, the market decided it, not Microsoft. Microsoft was pushing for Windows NT to be the OS of choice, specifically so that Microsoft wouldn't be limited to only running on Intel processors. Windows NT 4.0 was released to MIPS, PowerPC, DEC Alpha, and x86. Microsoft WANTED the variety. The only thing Microsoft cared about was that all computers run Windows NT, regardless of underlying hardware. During the life of the "NT" kernel (NT 3.1 through Windows XP/Server 2003,) it has been released in versions that run on SIX different architectures. The above mentioned four, plus Itanium (Windows 2000, and XP/Server2003,) and x86-64 (XP/Server2003.) Heck, the NT kernel was originally designed for Intel's RISC processor, the i860! (That processor was delayed significantly, so Microsoft also compiled for x86, and ended up never actually releasing an i860 version.)

Just to note, I am not trying to argue that the Intel Architecture instruction set is better than the PowerPC instruction set. I fully agree that PPC is technically superior to IA. The problem is that IA CHIPS are so vastly superior technically to PPC chips that any instruction set superiority is rendered moot. (I don't care if a diesel engine is technically superior to a gasoline engine, the fact is that gasoline engine manufacturers have overcompensated to the point that diesel engines just don't compete, except in a few very tightly controlled circumstances. Although in this comparison, diesel is MUCH closer to matching and surpassing gasoline than PPC is to matching x86.)

When Mac OS X takes away enough of the market share from Microsoft's x86-only operating systems, hopefully there will be enough potential revenue for IBM/Motorola to continue PowerPC development for Apple computers. The more Mac users there are, the more money IBM/Motorola can make from selling PowerPC chips. This will surely lead to much faster chips and hopefully we can make the last major CISC architecture obsolete.

It is. Intel has known that since 1996, when they released the RISC-core Pentium Pro. (And all of its successors, which have also been RISC-core.) Mac users didn't lead IBM or Motorola to make faster chips before, why would it now? Motorola found PowerPC to be so minor a business that they spun off that division as Freescale Semiconductor, who doesn't even market a single PowerPC chip as being for a 'computer'. They're all marketed as being for 'appliances' or embedded uses. IBM gave up on general PC PowerPC (they don't even make one of their own anymore,) in favor of POWER-architecture big iron and video game consoles. Whey else do you think IBM wasn't able to deliver a 3.0 GHz single-core G5 for Apple when they were able to deliver a G5-derivative with THREE cores at 3.2 GHz for Microsoft for the Xbox 360?

Yes, RISC chips are indeed a significant improvement over CISC chips. Why do you think that RISC chips are the ones in the top super computers?
Have you actually looked at the supercomputer rankings? The only reason RISC are on top any more is because of sheer number of processors. Compare processor count, not just total speed. An x86 system is 3rd, and has significantly fewer processors than the PowerPC system in 4th place.

Also look at SPEC Rates. These are the speed of the individual processor at Integer and Floating Point code. The fastest one right now for a single thread is the Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 (3.0 GHz,) with an Integer score of 22.6 vs. a 4.7 GHz IBM POWER6 at a score of 21.6. Next come Xeons at 3.0 GHz. For Floating Point, the POWER6 (again, at 4.7 GHz,) does win, with a score of 22.4, while the Core 2 Duo E6850 scores 19.3. (By comparison, a 1.6 GHz Itanium 2 scores 18.1! On a per-GHz basis, the Itanium wins.)

In the "Rate" tests, which can take advantage of multiple cores, the 4.7 GHz POWER6 does win, with a score of 122 compared to the 3 GHz Xeon at 116 in Integer, in floating point, it's 4.7 GHz POWER6, followed by 2.0 GHz Opteron, followed by 3.0 GHz Xeon.

Also take a peak at a direct comparison of Power Mac G5 to Mac Pro, and notice that at equal clock speeds, the Mac Pro beats the Power Mac G5. (Even a 'crippled' single-socket dual-core 2.0 GHz Mac Pro beats a dual-socket 2.0 GHz G5.)

You do realize that the linked article is more than a decade out of date, right? It appears to have been written in 1994! (Before Intel released the Pentium Pro, which had, at its core, a RISC core.)
 
Shorter development times, smaller system sizes, better optimisation for Intel systems, it's all good news.

And the guy at the start who said Apple should continue to support systems until they cannot cut the minimum specs (or something to that essence), that's pretty stupid. My 7 year old cube runs Tiger wonderfully, it will no doubt be capable of running Leopard, and probably a couple more after that. Now, With the newer G5's, we're looking at more like 2015 OSes being run on quad G4's. OSes hardly have the highest of minimum specs.

10.6 is still a long way away. Surely, when it's finally out, all those people with PPC's will be thinking about upgrading, and if you're not, then you're probably not the kind of person who is going to care about not having the very latest operating system.
 
I have a Powerbook G4 667mhz...and there is no way I will even think of buying leopard for it - Im ready to throw it out of the window as it is (so slow)

So anyone who wants 10.6 on their G4 laptop probably would be better off just getting a new machine where they can enjoy the features of the new O.S.

Peace

dAlen
 
We're talking about the operating system here, not the applications. I think that's what's so confusing. If Final Cut exceeds the capabilities of PowerPC, then drop support for it. Maybe Core Animation can't run on the older stuff, so those apps require more modern hardware (or better yet Core Animation behaves differently on weaker hardware, as the drop effect on Dashboard does so the devs don't need to worry so much about legacy support themselves). What part of managing a file system, scheduling tasks, and dumping data to a network can take 6GHz of Core2 power?

This is the problem with all the bundling that OS vendors are doing with their OS releases now. Despite all the buzz that ZFS generated around here, nobody gets excited about what an operating system does-- that's why everyone focuses on the icons and intro movies. To sell the OS, the vendor bundles it with dozens and dozens of little applications-- browsers, calendars, mail programs, DVD players, etc, etc. This is nice, because it really would be a pain to aggregate all those little utilities, but it isn't the point of an operating system.

Now, because a machine can't handle the eye candy that accompanies some novelty app, it can't benefit from the improved capability and security of an updated operating system.
It's because Apple (like myself) designs things around the idea that it's okay to require somewhat-updated technology, because the people they want as their customers are those who would already have updated technology.

If you look at a myriad of aspects of Apple's business (marketing, for one), you'll see Apple doesn't put much effort into appealing to the "i just want a really cheap machine" market, nor the "i just use my computer for email and web-browsing" market. They exist, sure, and they're comparatively big, yes, but does Apple care about them? Is Apple offended when those people don't buy into their brand? Nope, they sure aren't. Those are not customers worth marketing on board.

That's what I'm trying to say. There's nothing wrong with using a PowerPC machine four years after Apple last sold one. But you are not the customer Apple is going to (or should) design their plans around, and they're certainly not going to give you that impression by implementing legacy support.
You're kidding, right? Dump the biggest single segment of the home market? If Apple isn't going to address enterprise, and they're losing share in education (or is that email and web?), and they're going to throw away most of the home market-- where are they going to find growth? How many of those iPod users whose halo is shining on Mac are also hard core Mathmatica users?
Umm no it doesn't. Not in any way shape or form. This is what I find laughable about Apple and the Mac platform and is one of the core reasons why the IT industry will most likely never standardize on the Mac. If MS did this, and they have tried, you would have a mass riot from CIO's world wide. As it stand they tried killing support for windows 98....still have it. They've talked about scaling back support for XP....oops sorry. We're bad. MS's OS support vs. Apple isn't even comparable. I mean realistically we should see support for the PPC until 2010-1012 AFAIC.
You're confusing a companies support for it's OS with an OS's support for a microprocessor. The way MS supports CPUs is one of the major complaints people have about them. One of the major sources of fear about Vista is that it obsoletes people's existing hardware.

Not my point. My point is that legacy support can just as much about perception as it is about reality.

What's holding many 'fence sitters' from adopting is in many cases a "fear of the unknown", and/or false perceptions.

In general, they won't do serious, objective research, but will merely hook onto ANY convenient excuse ... no matter how lame ... in order to stay within their comfort zone of the status quo.

Fear of file incompatibility is an excuse. Fear of Apple going out of business is another excuse. And so on. Here, it is the 'fear' is for discontinuation of support.

And this is where rationality becomes blurred: notice that I said just "support", instead of "PPC support". The dilemma is that while dropping PPC support doesn't affect a 'fence sitter' directly, it does influence their perception as to how Apple operates (how long they stand behind their products). As such, the (potential) dropping of PPC support can -- if not done properly -- invoke a fear of "Apple could drop me like that", which can create a reluctance to buy Apple products.

For example, there's currently a lot of loud wailing going on because the video-out on the newest iPods apparently incorportates a new DRM, and as a result, aftermarket 3rd Party video interfaces have been broken. Right or wrong, Apple is taking some heat, and the visibility of these angry buyers will invariably affect iPod sales for awhile.

Overall, the more expensive the product, the more assurances that the consumer likes to have about it being a good investment.

An aspect of this is in creating consumer confidence that the manufacturer will support their products for a good number of years. One hard part is in picking the appropriate number of years to provide this support. Another hard part is in clearly articulating and educating the consumer as to what 'support' means, so as to manage their expectations. And yet another hard part is in being consistant with one's delivered message.

Some approaches will work better than others; they all have trade-offs. I'm of the general personal opinion that Apple could gain customers if they were to have a White Paper that clearly outlines their principles of operation, particularly if the terms thereon were consumer-friendly...for example, having a stated objective of a minimum of 7-10 years worth of corporate support. Lawyers don't like to make such promises, but that doesn't mean that it can never be done...it just means that its something that Lawyers don't like :D
Exactly. And, as we've seen with the iPod line, this is all exacerbated by the fact that Apple makes shiny things that people just want at a visceral level. That's what the RDF is all about-- people hate being forced to update Word just so they can read someone else's document, but they want the latest Apple stuff because... well... they're not really sure why but they want it. If they can satisfy that need with $129 they're ecstatic, but if they need to shell out 2 grand they get disgruntled. One of the major pulls of OS X these days is that they need to change hardware anyway to use Vista (and MS has told them they shouldn't be satisfied with XP anymore, so that's clearly not an option). They're tired of running the hardware/software treadmill. If they see Apple doing the same exact thing, then Apple really isn't going to look much better in their eyes.

People want value for their money, and they measure that by the useful life of their purchases. My car is almost 15 years old and you'd better believe I'm going back to the same company first when I'm ready to look for a new one. Tying into what I said above, this is just an operating system we're talking about. It's a means to an end, and the end is the applications that run on it. To the average user, the OS is the hardware-- a new OS makes people feel like they have new a new computer, even if they're still loading the same 4 year old applications on it.

The other "fence sitters" to think about are existing Mac users, and how they'll behave the next time Apple makes a big change like they did with Intel. Apple managed to keep reasonable sales figures even after the Intel switch was announced because people knew from experience that Apple supports old hardware for a good long time. If they leave people feeling stuck because their dual G5 got obsoleted in middle age, they'll be much more hesitant to buy the next time there's a big change on the horizon.
If so many people want to keep the PowerPC, why doesn't Apple bring back support for the 68000 processor? That was a great processor! </sarcasm>
Indeed it was a great processor. Does anyone have a reference to how long Apple supported legacy hardware in the past? G3 is one example, but Apple has a long history of changing processors.
!¡ V ¡!;4231980 said:
Another problem is that when Apple only made the PPC version of OS X open to the public and an x86 version in secret, it was securing its future on any consumer computing architecture. Having support for only x86 would certainly be cheaper, however it is also a strategy of cornering oneself with no alternatives. I believe PPC and x86 will live on, however it all depends on what :apple: will release and sell to the public.

Apple only chose x86 for mobility/power consumption ratio, if for any reason the x86 hits a wall as did the PPC, :apple: would be left with no alternatives. Having support PPC and x86 is planning for the worst case scenario.
There's a big difference between keeping a PPC port alive in the labs and shipping one. I think what we saw with the Intel port is that it was active in the lab but wasn't kept release ready. Even the first few released versions of Tiger were kinda buggy on Intel-- some might argue it still has more problems on Intel than it does on PPC. I don't want to understate the effort required to keep crossplatform support alive.

---
I find it interesting that when Apple bumps the speed of a MacBook by 20MHz and moves the firewire port from the left to the right, everyone screams bloody murder about how pissed they are that the MacBook they bought only 6 months ago is now "obsolete". Then a thread comes up about truly obsoleting a whole class of machines and people think it makes sense... Yeah, I know, different people probably, but I wish I had the time to hunt the archives and know that for sure.
 
A strong gut feeling.

If OS X survives beyond 10.5...it will have been around for 10 years.

i highly doubt apple will have an OS base last that long.



p.s. fine...i guess non iPhone news is better than only iPhone news..regardless how crumby


OS X is a strong foundation. Why throw it away after 10.5? A complete rewrite of the Mac OS would not only take more time and funds, all of our current apps would have to run under emulation... again. Apple has done a fantastic job in transitioning from PPC to Intel, give them a break.

I don't think we'll see an OS XI until at least 2011.

And keep in mind Windows NT has been around since 1993. It's not uncommon for a software base to last long.
 
Can you give me a source? I can't find information to back your statement.

Try a ridiculously overly detailed Ars Technica article.

In short, the actual processing engine inside the Core 2 Duo is actually completely different than the processing engine inside the Core Duo, which is completely different than Pentium 4, which was completely different than Penium III, etc.

Way back when, (until the Pentium Pro,) the processor's core directly executed x86 instructions. But as new processor technologies came out (out of order execution, for one,) Intel (and other companies,) realized that the native x86 instruction set left much to be desired from a deep-down processor design perspective. But they couldn't just abandon x86. So they made a processor that, at its core, executed code in its own custom instruction set, but had a hardware 'translator' for x86 as part of it. In fact, you can't even access the 'native' instruction set of any of Intel's processors from the Pentium Pro on. Basically, by making this separation between the x86 instruction set and the actual processor instruction set, they can update the processor at any time with a more efficient instruction set. For example, the Core 2 Duo micro-instructions are more capable than previous generations, in some cases able to process two x86 instructions in a single Core 2 Duo "micro-op"
 
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