Mac OS X Lion Notes: iOS Scroll Bars, Any Corner Resizing, Dock Changes

[HLdan]

I think Apple innovates so often that if they add something that isn't innovative and is taking from other OS's people jump down their throats.

I'm not inclined to agree with this because just on this forum alone people complain that they wish Apple would implement features from Windows 7 even though Windows is several steps backwards, IMO.

Actually, Windows apps can run windowless. Most of them have icons in the systray if they do. It's really not that great of a way to do it as it's almost hacked on. I'm still not sure whether I like the indicators being gone yet. I'll have to wait till Lion is here and I can actually use it to determine how I feel.

I wasn't aware that Windows could run apps "windowless", I know you can minimize the window, I've never known that you could close the window and the app still runs. How is that possible?

 

[ctdonath]

And losing our visual cue for this is a step backwards.

Visual cue for what? For most apps, "running" is anachronistic if the program implements "resume" well: click the icon, the window of what you're doing appears - whether transitioning from one in-focus app to another, or starting a non-running app and picking up where the user left off two power cycles ago. A user shouldn't care about "starting" an app, they just want to use it - there IS a difference.

Why is the visual cue needed if, whether or not the app is "running", you click the icon and the program appears where you last left it?

 

[KnightWRX]

I think that most people here aren't convinced that the removal of dots from the dock means that we are moving to a cooperative multi-tasking OS as you discuss above.

Nor am I. It's the whole "suspend running apps that are backgrounded" thing that makes me say that, not the actual removal of the dots.

The dots don't really have anything to do with suspended/running/stopped. Heck, you could make them offer visual cues depending on state. Blue for running (as is), yellow for suspended and absent for stopped.

 

[willryan42]

personally i like the lights, and rarely use multitasking tools like expose or cmd +tab. when working with big files in photoshop, illustrator, premiere, etc., i sometimes have to quit all my open apps that i'm not using to save some precious ram. i like to keep my workspace clean, x'ing out (red button) windows when i'm not using them (granted it's an app that doesn't quit when you do this, like browsers, itunes, transmission, etc.). this helps keep my workflow organized so i don't have dozens of windows open.

after reading this, i thought i'd maybe start using expose or cmd + tab more, but i found out that if say, itunes is x'ed out (but running), and cmd + tab to it, it won't pop up but it says itunes at the menu bar at the top. it makes sense that i wouldn't see itunes in expose, but i feel like if it's shown in the cmd + tab bar, it should pop up.

maybe i'm doing something wrong or thinking about it the wrong way though, i don't know.


EDIT: discovered that if you "hide" the app (cmd + h or right click dock icon > hide), then it'll pop up when you cmd + tab to it. this isn't the most intuitive way to do it, but maybe i can get used to it.

 

[QuarterSwede]

Similarly, it's not going to just quit itself, is it?

Apps would have to be specifically written for this, as is the case with iOS. And the developers will have control over whether or not an app is not allowed to quit (even allow the user to specify this in the prefs), should the app be aware of this.

You seem to be concentrating your efforts on a more doom and gloom scenario, rather than looking at the most likely outcome, given what is already capable on iOS.

My guess is Safari will be able to remain running until downloads finish and then have the option of suspending.

As for Photoshop, that may catch up and be suspend aware three-years down the line, so it'll just stay in RAM as per the current situation.

Broaden your view a little.

Thank you! This is exactly why it doesn't matter to the end user. PERIOD. In the end, OS X will run much more efficiently and end up saving battery life.

 

[ctdonath]

I've never known that you could close the window and the app still runs. How is that possible?

Because the window is just a visible artifact of the program. The program can run without displaying anything. Indeed, there are many programs running on your computer which have no windows showing - just as you can be thinking about something without talking about it.

 

[KnightWRX]

The iPad has shown that "always on" visible scroll bars are not necessary. The context of the page is more than enough info to know that there is more to the page above or below. Are there situations where you want to know where you're at in a document? Of course, but it's a very small use case in the grand scheme.

It is a use case nonetheless. And again, iPad has to deal with limited screen real estate. My Mac doesn't.

The iPad has shown me nothing because I don't care about iOS. I think it's a usability mess in many ways that the Mac isn't.

Visual cue for what? For most apps, "running" is anachronistic if the program implements "resume" well: click the icon, the window of what you're doing appears - whether transitioning from one in-focus app to another, or starting a non-running app and picking up where the user left off two power cycles ago. A user shouldn't care about "starting" an app, they just want to use it - there IS a difference.

Why is the visual cue needed if, whether or not the app is "running", you click the icon and the program appears where you last left it?

I like knowing Mail is running and polling my POP server for new e-mail. No, I don't want to depend on my ISP to push updates to Apple's server so that they can push back updates to my Mac that will "resume" Mail.

Push notification is retarded. It's a hack for resource limited devices.

 

[D'Illusion]

What if you want to jump to half way down a very long document?

I was playing Words With Friends the weekend. There's a site which lists all the words you're allowed to use and I thought I'd check it out to find some obscure Q, X and Z words. The words were in a list on one page and there's 170,000 of them. I scrolled for ages and gave up and didn't even get past A. Extremely annoying.

Not a problem on my desktop as I use a Logitech keyboard which has Page Up/Down buttons as well as Home and End buttons. Never used an Apple keyboard so not sure what the equivalent is.

 

[MacHiavelli]

The Lion icons will PROBABLY have more info. Instead of only showing if an app is running, it will tell you more about what the app is doing.

Just as Mail gives a count of unread messages, and iCal shows today's date, new icons will show extra data, e.g Pages will show the number of documents open, Safari will show the number of windows/tabs, etc.

 

[cmaier]

The iPad has shown that "always on" visible scroll bars are not necessary. The context of the page is more than enough info to know that there is more to the page above or below. Are there situations where you want to know where you're at in a document? Of course, but it's a very small use case in the grand scheme.

If you don't have an iPad, find one and mess around for a while. Scroll bars just aren't as necessary as we thought.

pretty much the only time i use a scroll bar on my macs now is when I want to jump to a specific point by clicking the scroll bar in a particular location. The rest of the time I am multi-touch scrolling a trackpad, magic mouse, or magic trackpad. I suspect that's increasingly the case with others. I don't see the point in showing the scrollbars if my hands aren't even touching the navigation device; i prefer to see content, not chrome.

 

[Splen]

Just to stick my oar in: I don't even understand how people can work with the dock visible all the time. What a waste of screen space! I only use the dock to provide shortcuts to my most frequently used folders so if there is an application icon in there at all it must be running. Also, If I want to see whether an application is running it is because I want to use it for something, therefore cmd+tabbing to the icon is something I would have to do anyway. If the application is not already running I just launch it with spotlight. The dock is not my favourite part os OSX! (but it does have its uses).

 

[QuarterSwede]

I'm not inclined to agree with this because just on this forum alone people complain that they wish Apple would implement features from Windows 7 even though Windows is several steps backwards, IMO.

I meant in regards to what those people specifically say, not all MR users.

I wasn't aware that Windows could run apps "windowless", I know you can minimize the window, I've never known that you could close the window and the app still runs. How is that possible?

Run AIM. Click the X to close and it still runs in the systray.

 

[Philotech]

I don't really have apps that sit there waiting for user input. They are either waiting for network input (so it's important they are listening and up, or using something like inetd to manage launching them when they receive packets) or they are polling something at regular interval (which should be up to the app, not the OS).

I have no clue what you're trying to prove. I was just explaining that multitasking is not going away. The issue everybody's discussing here is how switching between the user interfaces of different apps will happen and if that requires that I need to know that a certain app is "running". Of course any app that waits for anything (user input, network input or whatever) will continue to do so, either the app itself (as now), via a daemon (FaceTime) or via push notification (certain iOS apps). But the latter is totally irrelevant as long as it gets the job done. In particular, why should I care if the app polls for a certain incident or the OS does it and invokes the app once the incident has occurred?

 

[Philotech]

I agree....I think this is a brilliant way to show what's on and what's off. It's sometimes important to close various programs when using a real resource hog like a 3D rendering program like Vray or Maxwell.

Why do people insist on living in yesterday's world? You assume there is a link between "technically running" and "using a noticable amount of system resources". This maybe so in yesterday's world, but in today's or at least in Lion's tomorrow's world there won't be such link. The OS takes care of it and either pages out the app or suspends it while saving its state. You don't have to are.

 

[twilson]

Sorry but no. Push notification requires an external server to actually be up and responsive for my app to get notification ?

What "network input" are you expecting that doesn't come from an external server. If it's local then surely there are much better ways to handle NOTIFICATIONS.

I'd rather use the multi-tasking on my OS and pull information at an interval I decided was good.

Of course, polling for changes is much more efficient than being told there are changes (you only have to look at Flash to see why that one is utter BS as Flash used to work by polling the browser). For somebody who seems soooo concerned about managing CPU/RAM usage, you seem all too ready to waste it them.

Why are you people so hellbent on just accepting going backwards like this ? Install OS9 and be done with it.

OS9 didn't use a special SANDBOXED suspend state. Christ, a simple crash used to take down the whole system, don't even compare the two.

Except for all the differences I've documented here and that you keep dismissing instead of responding to. Seriously, at least try to make an argument.

Remind me, because so far I haven't seen anything compelling that matters, beyond a very artificial, improbable reason that will almost never occur.

Obviously all the users responding to you. For the last 3 pages. Seriously if most users are barely aware of the lights, what are they harming then ? It is a step backwards for us who do use them if you remove them.

Generally, those that don't give a crap keep quiet. Surely you are aware of this phenomenon by now, you must have visited enough forums?

 

[fsck-y dingo]

As a frequent user of RemoveBG (more info) for the iPhone I don't like this at all. I dislike how Apple wants users to just be ok with thing running. I'm sure the OS will manage thing quite well but I prefer closing applications I'm not using.

If it were Command+Tab to close all applications would be great, but just to see what's running and then have to close them, not cool. If they don't include an option similar to what's in use now I hope it'll be possible for some script writers to make it happen.

 

[ctdonath]

i sometimes have to quit all my open apps that i'm not using to save some precious ram.

That shows those apps are not using memory efficiently nor in your best interests. A program should only be using memory space & processor time insofar as doing so benefits YOU. During idle time, it should be de-activating unused features and freeing stale/unused memory - all in a manner which can be rapidly re-activated. If I'm using, say, Word to read a page, I don't need full mailmerge, object integration, font manipulation, dictionary lookup, etc. all full-on soaking up 100MB+ memory. Printer drivers should shut down; VoIP app should run only enough to watch for incoming calls; idle apps should start sleeping; etc.

Most of the time, what you need of a program RIGHT NOW is relatively small and loaded & activated rapidly. You shouldn't have to manage your RAM usage.

And this leads to why "multitasking" was absent from iOS so long: most programs grossly abuse multitasking ability, being fully present/on/running when only a tiny task is really needed most of the time.

 

[twilson]

Thank you! This is exactly why it doesn't matter to the end user. PERIOD. In the end, OS X will run much more efficiently and end up saving battery life.

Just need KnightWRX to see the point I'm trying to make and then all sorted.

 

[GroundLoop]

Nor am I. It's the whole "suspend running apps that are backgrounded" thing that makes me say that, not the actual removal of the dots.

The dots don't really have anything to do with suspended/running/stopped. Heck, you could make them offer visual cues depending on state. Blue for running (as is), yellow for suspended and absent for stopped.

But that would not be taking the "common" user into consideration. I would hate to have to teach my parents the difference between a yellow and a blue dot. My thinking is that Apple is going to take over more of the management of running (foreground)/suspended/background processes. I may not like all of the decision they make wrt that management, but that will be part of the information that I used to make a decision on upgrading or not.

If the OS, as a tool, does not allow me to do what I need to do, it is time to get a new tool.

GL

 

[Str8edgepunker]

UMMM, this is a problem seeing as those lights under applications that are open is a FEATURE. Besides it's a convenient use of otherwise wasted space.

iOS scroll bars are just going to anger the heck out of me and if I wanted "Any Corner Resizing" I'll fire up windows.

I guess Snow Leopard is the last of the breed, although the same could be said of Tiger.




Of course I do realize that was just a preview and may not represent what actually ships in the OS.

 

[Mailia]

Something else missing in the Lion screenshots.

 

[Philotech]

And losing our visual cue for this is a step backwards.

No. Windows (XP, VISTA) has thousands of visual cues in the notification area such as "Your XXX is working now". In OS X, you don't get that notification, but your XXX just works. XP and Vista were perfect examples that visual cues of what is happening are a huge nuisance.
Same here. I don't want to know that the app is running, I want that it's there if I switch to it. And that's exactly what will happen, so the dots are totally unnecessary.

 

[KnightWRX]

No. Windows (XP, VISTA) has thousands of visual cues in the notification area such as "Your XXX is working now". In OS X, you don't get that notification, but your XXX just works. XP and Vista were perfect examples that visual cues of what is happening are a huge nuisance.
Same here. I don't want to know that the app is running, I want that it's there if I switch to it. And that's exactly what will happen, so the dots are totally unnecessary.

Scrollbars and lights in the dock were not a huge nuissance. *sigh*.

Heck, some people even install Growl to get more visual cues in OS X. I know I kinda like it after CS5 forced it upon me, I haven't removed it yet.

 

[ctdonath]

I like knowing Mail is running and polling my POP server for new e-mail.

Obviously it's the kind of program which, at installation, knows it should be running all the time - so it should be. There's no reason for it to not be running, so you shouldn't have to be informed that it is. You're expending pixels to tell you what you don't need to know; indeed, if you need to know that Mail is running, then maybe the real question is "why would it NOT be running? just make sure it's always on, and let me know if it stops running for some reason!"

Same reason why the power indicator light on the MacBooks now turn off when the screen is open & on: there's no reason to alert the user to something being on when it's obviously on, and/or no reason to worry that it's not.

 

[twilson]

No. Windows (XP, VISTA) has thousands of visual cues in the notification area such as "Your XXX is working now". In OS X, you don't get that notification, but your XXX just works. XP and Vista were perfect examples that visual cues of what is happening are a huge nuisance.
Same here. I don't want to know that the app is running, I want that it's there if I switch to it. And that's exactly what will happen, so the dots are totally unnecessary.

Most Windows users are scared of those notifications, as they tend to think something is broken.