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Sorry but no. Push notification requires an external server to actually be up and responsive for my app to get notification ? I'd rather use the multi-tasking on my OS and pull information at an interval I decided was good.

Why are you people so hellbent on just accepting going backwards like this ? Install OS9 and be done with it.

We've been "going backwards" since the explosion of the web. For some vast majority of users, a vast majority of their computing is accomplished via the dumb terminal they call their browser.

All machines are networked, all the time. Using "the cloud" in smart ways as compliment to your local resources is not going backwards.

Google is looking to put the *whole damn OS* in a browser. MS Office will soon be online, not installed locally. Corporate IT is busy virtualizing all their old physical servers.

Why? Because it is cost effective and reduces complexity for the end user. We now have the resources and power--both hardware and software--for this to work.

You seem to be the one holding on to 1990s era OS metaphors.
 
Removed feature: running app light.
Provided alternative: mission control.

Mission control: a new feature that provides a view of what's running on your Mac with a simple swipe gesture.

And on top of this I'll add more:

current OSX: go down with the mouse on the dock to show the dock if hiding and/or click on the app that you want to close.

Lion: three finger swipe down shows all the app running, click on the app that you want close.

So: cursor down to show dock from hiding vs three finger swipes. How this is complicated?

This is as comfortable as the two finger swiping to scroll, and thanks to this feature I won't be needing to get to my favourite button on the Mac: F3.

And if you don't have one of the latest Apples with the multi-touch trackpad (or if you have an Imac) - you lose?
 
We've been "going backwards" since the explosion of the web. For some vast majority of users, a vast majority of their computing is accomplished via the dumb terminal they call their browser.

All machines are networked, all the time. Using "the cloud" in smart ways as compliment to your local resources is not going backwards.

Google is looking to put the *whole damn OS* in a browser. MS Office will soon be online, not installed locally. Corporate IT is busy virtualizing all their old physical servers.

Why? Because it is cost effective and reduces complexity for the end user. We now have the resources and power--both hardware and software--for this to work.

You seem to be the one holding on to 1990s era OS metaphors.

It's all fine and dandy until you dont have an available internet connection. Universal wifi is not available yet, cell tethering is not widespread either, yet you think that this will be a good thing for computer novices?
 
this is a tough one, i agree with some stuff said from people who are apposed and those who are in favor of the new changes. I think im going to reserve judgment untill we get more of the finish product. always peole who hate change (i agree with them saying if it aint broken..), or people doubt apple and what they are going to put out, but it seems like whatever they do turns out to be a smash hit for the majority of people, and apple fans anyways. i however in no way want an ipad os in my macbook pro it seems like we are headed this way if they keep going on this route that is kinda scary.
 
I don't have really anything to add to this article, except for a request to close my account as I started to work for Apple back in September... and I don't want any of my children to use it (anymore).

Thank you,

Chief
 
And if you don't have one of the latest Apples with the multi-touch trackpad (or if you have an Imac) - you lose?

Well now, that wouldn't exactly be a new move coming from Apple, would it? And if that happens, you can bet a significant number of people on this forum will shout down anyone who says it's a crap move by Apple.

Reminds me of just a few weeks ago, when we found out printing on iOS devices was only going to be available to the blessed ones who own iOS 4 compatible devices. Because, as everyone knows, none of us were ever able to print until computer processors reached 1GHz - so of course it wasn't realistic to expect printing to come to older iOS devices. :D
 
And if you don't have one of the latest Apples with the multi-touch trackpad (or if you have an Imac) - you lose?

I'm certain Apple will not retire the mouse, and if the trackpad is a better option, then some may purchase it if they wish. Technology advances, stating that "you lose" because Apple introduces a new product to compliment a possible multi-touch OS is silly. Should Apple stifle it's advancements so that no one "loses"? Tech companies make advances that cost the consumer at some level, it's not just Apple. If Apple simply stated "well, we don't want to upset the consumers with this new [insert device/technology here], so we'll just keep it under wraps indefinitely", then technology would be as stagnant as the national economy.
 
Ok I havent read the whole thread, but it seems the majority of the complaints are about the Dock not showing what apps are running. Im SURE that there will be a "hack" of some sort to get the old dock behavior back in Lion. That is if Apple doesn't put it back before release.

Wait till WWDC 2011, when Im sure we will get a bigger preview (and a release date) before you jump to conclusions about what features Lion will or won't have.
 
Its amazing to me how much haters and doubters there are on this thread even though this is just a rumor, and apple has not yet told us how lion is going to work in terms of a dock, and auto-save and resume apps. Apple knows what they are doing just wait until apple officially tells us how this will work, if anything changes at all
 
Its amazing to me how much haters and doubters there are on this thread even though this is just a rumor, and apple has not yet told us how lion is going to work in terms of a dock, and auto-save and resume apps. Apple knows what they are doing just wait until apple officially tells us how this will work, if anything changes at all

Of course. It's fun to debate and speculate. :)

But minutiae about scrollbars and Dock lights aside, I think what we've seen in Lion so far does indicate a shift in philosophy about the Mac; that it should be more iOS-like. We see it in iPhoto already--iPhoto 11 basically behaves like one big iOS app UI-wise when it's in full-screen mode.

So my concerns are deeper than "Oh no new scrollbars!11!!!one!!", and are more about concerns and questions about how Apple's love affair with iOS will affect OS X's usability going forward. How will features/UI concepts intended for smaller touchscreen gadgets going to work on a mouse-driven OS that runs on larger-screen computers? How far is Apple going to take this? What does it mean for those of us who use a Mac for more than Web browsing and flipping through iPhoto?

This is what we're worried about, not just scrollbars.
 
alternative |ôlˈtərnətiv|
adjective [ attrib. ]
(of one or more things) available as another possibility:
• (of two things) mutually exclusive;
• of or relating to behavior that is considered unconventional and is often seen as a challenge to traditional norms.

noun
one of two or more available possibilities.



By definition is an alternative.
If you don't accept it as an alternative is going to be a completly different argument.

You've obviously missed the point. If Mission Control is just a glorified Expose (albeit we don't know the final design) then it is not an alternative that wasn't already in place. Hence it is not an ADDED alternative, but a preexisting one. Using sophistry like "provided" is just a shell game to take away an option while pretending something new is replacing it.

The GUI in Mac OS X is not intuitive, not innovative, and these new refinements are not even really improvements. Here's why:

In Mac OS X to know what apps are open, you can currently glance at the dock. But one usually has an idea of what apps are open. Still, it is a good first order way of being aware of what's running. However, knowing which apps are open isn't really fine-grained enough. It's still only a general level of awareness. What you really need to know is what specific tasks you are working on e.g. files, windows, tabs, letters, documents, etc. These are found at the windows level of the GUI. People experience, interface with, and work within these specific windows, not apps.

Is there a way to know what specific windows and files are open in Mac OS X? Sure, Cmd tab, Expose, track pad swipes, etc. But all these features require you to DO something, some kind of motion i.e. clicking, swiping, typing, etc. Mission Control doesn't look like it is going to lessen the clicks, you'll still have to click, swipe or type to initiate Mission Control in the first place. What if you could tell what apps and what windows and what files were open without doing anything?

In Windows 7, for example, you can just glance down at the taskbar button and you instantly know what specific apps, windows, and files are open. There is even a truncated descriptor of the window or file name, which gives you more information. You don't have to DO a thing; no clicking, no swiping, no typing. When you want to move to another window, just point and click. If you want a preview, you just hover the mouse, you don't even have to clcik and hold. I spend too much time in Mac OS X toggling the Expose key to see what windows are open. You have to press the Expose keyboard button, then click it again to resume what you were doing. To move to another app or window, you press the Expose button, look for the window you want among the clutter, then click that window to bring it forward. (Or tab through apps, and then tab through windows). More movement and more effort. In short: it's clunky. And I won't even get into how much time I spend resizing windows because they open unpredictably, and trying to finesse the right bottom corner. Or manipulating windows around using Spaces (which has the added step of setting it up in the first place).

Apple, with its app-centric worldview that creates unnecessary clicking, swiping and typing, is behind the times. Microsoft figured out a long time ago that people work in windows, not apps. Which is why in Windows, a window is an instantiation of an app, not a subset of it. Maybe Lion will address some of these things, but I'm not holding my breath. When an OS has been developed over a decade and it still takes two steps to quit an app, then there is a design philosophy that seems stale.
 
Of course. It's fun to debate and speculate. :)

But minutiae about scrollbars and Dock lights aside, I think what we've seen in Lion so far does indicate a shift in philosophy about the Mac; that it should be more iOS-like. We see it in iPhoto already--iPhoto 11 basically behaves like one big iOS app UI-wise when it's in full-screen mode.

So my concerns are deeper than "Oh no new scrollbars!11!!!one!!", and are more about concerns and questions about how Apple's love affair with iOS will affect OS X's usability going forward. How will features/UI concepts intended for smaller touchscreen gadgets going to work on a mouse-driven OS that runs on larger-screen computers? How far is Apple going to take this? What does it mean for those of us who use a Mac for more than Web browsing and flipping through iPhoto?

This is what we're worried about, not just scrollbars.

this^^^^^^^

exactly... further, while once I enjoyed all things "iPhone", etc. I'm growing weary of Apple's new focus on iOS iDevices. Over the past few years, I've seen Apple shift from a company focused on serious/professional desktop systems and displays to stores filled with teenagers, soccer mom's and screaming children clamoring to guy the latest, shiny iDevice. Great, it's gotten Apple, INC a $40 billion reserve, but at what cost?
 
Hi,

something I didn't see mentioned in this thread yet was the quick method I use to quit applications in the current Mac OS. Perhaps it's one of those things that many people aren't aware of.

Press command-tab to bring up the floating "window" (?) showing the icons of currently running applications. Tab to the one you want to quit, but don't let go of the command key, and then press the 'q' key. This tells that application to quit, politely. It'll close (or bring up a save dialog or whatever else is appropriate). If it does successfully quit, it'll go away from the list of running applications in that command-tab floating window. You can then keep telling others to quit or switch to one or whatever.

Using this behaviour I can not only quickly see what's running, but quit a whole bunch of applications easily, without even switching to them.

Hmmm, it just occurred to me that this might actually not be standard Mac OS X behaviour. I do have LiteSwitch installed, but I have it set to a different key-stroke-combination, so the floating window I'm talking about _is_ the standard Mac OS X one (and I don't know whether I still even need LiteSwitch). I just don't know whether the Mac OS X behaviour has been modified by LiteSwitch. Anyway, give it a go. (I'm on XP here at work, can't try it out myself).

I think pressing 'q' twice quickly (or something like that) will force-quit rather than politely-quit.

I hope that helps someone.

As far as the topic goes... :D I'll miss scroll bars; I have no desire whatsoever to 'swipe' my way to page 792 of that 1500 page software manual I have to refer to sometimes, even if I did have a 'swipe-able' input device.

Cheers, A.
 
But I often want my apps to be actively working in the background, not hibernating. What is the point of having 8 processors and 16GB RAM in my Mac Pro if only the foremost application is actively doing anything?
Why do people suddenly think the OS would shut down applications that are working? You haven't been thinking the same when the concept of virtual memory appeared and the OS started paging out code...
OF COURSE such app would keep running. If the app doesn't support it, the OS cannot shut it down because it cannot know what events would trigger the app to start working on something again. Such apps would continue to be swapped out only with all current threads continuing to run. Only if an app tells the OS it has for example spun off a thread to do everything that needs to be done (eg iTunes spinnning off a music-playing thread) the OS can shut the app down.

Anyway, the idea wasn't so much about the OS shutting down apps (because this wouldn't be so much different from paging out anyway) but the UI not showing which app is running. Because from a user perspective it also doesn't matter if the app is "running" with almost all the code and data paged out or the app is shut down with all the data being written to a separate file. In both cases a lot of code/data has to be "loaded" from disk to RAM anyway, so why should the user care and why bother him with blue dots (or even more colors)?
 
A problem I can see especially if you forget that a heavy RAM using application is running. :/ It may not be immediately apparent to the user why the computer is running slow if you can't see what applications are running at a glance. I sometimes forget that I have Aperture running since a photo import, and there you go -- 2-3 GB less free.
How should a user know whether an app is using huge amounts of memory, and why in the first place is he supposed to know? That's an issue maybe for the IT department, but I should not have to care what app takes which amount of memory. And in any event, the blue dot doesn't tell me anything because it's the same dot for Preview as it is for Photoshop with 10 huge photos open. From a user perspective, the dot does not mean anything.
 
ALSO you can now resize the windows from any corner, again, works nicely.

Wow. Full screen applications and the ability to resize windows in any direction!
Truly innovative, Apple. Truly innovative.
Slow-Clap.gif
 
I agree that it's better to provide some kind of indication. And I don't like the current blue lights: too hard to see against a light background, and I turn "dock hiding" on anyway.
Like so many other people in this thread you say you prefer to have such indication, but exactly like most other people you don't give a reason. So WHY do you care? It's a total mystery to me. Right now you don't have any indication whatsoever whether an app (or most of it) is paged out. Apple now will make sure that shutting down and paging out is, from a user perspective, exactly the same: No noticeable difference in CPU usage, in memory footprint, in reload speed, in the state the app will be in when paged-in / reloaded. NO DIFFERENCE!
So WHY the hell do you all want a blue dot for the paged-out app but not for the shut-down app!?!?

And don't tell me then there is no need to have the OS shut down apps. YES that's true! We have no indication that the OS will actively shut down apps. In any event it could only do so if the app supports it by (1) spinning off a thread or invoking a OS daemon to take care of the event to re-invoke it again and (2) telling the OS that it may be shut down.
But the user may shut down the app (if the OS provides for a way to do so which, I suppose, it will for a while, until this won't be necessary any more due to better resource management by the OS). But he still does not need to have this blue-dot indicator because that dot doesn't indicate anything.

Btw even now there are apps in OS X that can only be started but not shut down: the Dashboard is an example. Even if you return to the desktop, Dashboard keeps running and (apart from the Activity Monitor or Terminal probably) there is no way to shut it down again. It will just be paged out by the OS and not a single one in this thread here cares.
 
I suppose this would be the key question that I really wouldn't know how to answer. Yes, if the computer could manage it's own use of memory, that would be welcome. But these questions remain: On a system with less-than-unlimited resources, where does Photoshop store such a big file if I needed to use the memory for other apps? If I am accessing a 100+MB Photoshop file over the network (which I often do), it takes Photoshop time (sometimes 10-15 seconds or even more) to access this file off of the disk. It is definitely not instantaneous. If I am at the limits of the memory on my machine, I would not want my OS deciding for me that since Photoshop is currently not being used, that it will close the file on my behalf, only to have to re-read it from the disk 15 minutes later. How would my OS know that I would not much rather close down my Mail app, for example, (maybe I won't be using that program in the next several hours) in order to free up the memory?

Is there currently some instantaneous way, aside from RAM, for the OS to temporarily suspend and store large files you're not working on but would prefer not to have to re-open from the disk?

I guess there is definitely a better way than swapping things in and out of memory, especially when something is being swapped back in that isn't really being used, save for some crap polling of an external service.
 
How about instead of getting rid of the lights on the doc, making them have different colors to represent different statuses.

Example:
Whitish/Blueish color they have now: App is running and active
Yellow: App is in suspended mode.
No Dot: App is closed, no resources, etc.

for some reason I see Apple trying to get rid of the dot as having a similar backlash as when they tried to get rid of list-view in the doc.
HORRIFYING IDEA!!
FOUR different statuses that don't mean ANYTHING to the user! What about a Windows-like tray indication whenever the OS switches tasks?!? Some 50 times a second? That would really be helpful because the user should always know what is running. OK I know I'm leaving the level of rational discussion here...
 
And if you don't have one of the latest Apples with the multi-touch trackpad (or if you have an Imac) - you lose?

So when the first OSes came out with the use of a mouse what happened?

When the floppy disk have been removed from computers?

Let's not change anything. Ever.
 
The fun fact is that you people are complaining for a keystroke because is too much to do, when Apple doesn't even what you to THINK about managing your resources, check what app is running and what's not.

Therefore even they moving toward a UI that helps you not having headache to think what to do, but just doing what you have to do, you are going to make your user experience hell just because you are used to something that have been like that for a decade.

And moreover, most of people don't even know what the computer resources means (for example my father) and they won't care about it.

Get over it, is a damn light.
 
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