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or the ppc chips would run so hot with the speeds snow leopard is going to achieve.

You're not serious are you? You can't make software suddenly overwork a processor into burning itself up. The only way you'll toast a CPU is if the cooling system fails or you decide it would be a good idea to do your next video encoding or 3d rendering job at the beach with a generator.

-mark
 
Just because the iPhone SDK may still run on PPC does not mean that it will be released Universal. Just as Apple has always developed Intel builds of OS X and Apple Apps alongside PPC builds even for there were Intel Macs, Apple will continue developing PPC builds alongside Intel builds. That doesn't mean that the final release will be universal though. Making a universal build may be fairly easy, requiring just a checkbox in XCode, but the problem is supporting it. If Apple were to officially support a PPC build, they would have to go through months of testing and optimization, which would probably take longer than the equivalent process on Intel too since there have been more different PPC models released than Intel. When Apple doesn't officially support PPC builds it's not the checkbox that they want to avoid it's the time consuming testing. Even if everything turns out to be hunky-dory, they still need to go through the motions to verify that, so it's not it's a process that can be short-changed.

That is similar to Snow Leopard. Perhaps the applications may still be universal, possibily because they may want to port some back to Leopard. But there is no guarantee that they've kept the PPC kernel in place or retained support for booting using Open Firmware in PPC Macs compared to EFI in Intel Macs. Even if the PPC kernel is still there, if it isn't seeing further development and testing, it could be very unstable especially when additional technologies are layered on top.
Well, you can't compare in any way the "secret" development of Intel OS X over the past years to the current iPhone SDK.

-First of all, there has never been a trace of an Intel OS X before Apple announced the switch to Intel.
-Second, the iPhone SDK is completely "universal"! From the first line of code to the last. So it's PPC/Intel native and you can't compare that either to the secret Intel OS X build before the processor switch. The secret Intel OS X before the switch was not able to run on a PPC Mac! It was just Intel!
-Third, I tried it and it just works. Two projects builds with Xcode on a Intel Mac and a PPC Mac. They are working without any problem, are completely the same apps. Even the "Orginizer" works on PPC! So you can test not only your apps on the Simulator but also without any problem on your device (an iPod Touch or iPhone).

The reason why Apple is offering the iPhone SDK official for "Intel" is because more developers are going to buy a Intel Mac for developing on the iPhone/iPod.
Imagine they would offer a PPC iPhone SDK (or even the word "PPC" in the specs from the iPhone SDK). Do you realy think "NEW" developers would be attract by this? The processor they are not used to work with... No way! It's in Apple best interest offering this SDK for Intel even when it runs just as good on a PPC Mac. They can say (and they do say that): "Hey potential developers, buy a cheap Mac (it's an Intel computer) and download the free SDK. You are developing on the fly."

It's an Intel iPhone SDK because Apple wanted as many developers as possible to buy an Intel Mac (the processor they are know well and attract by) to make this a huge succes!

Believe me, the iPhone SDK is the next OS X SDK and it will be universal!
With the so called Intel only iPhone SDK I develop on my PPC G5 Cocoa apps for OS X (PPC/Intel) and Cocoa Touch apps for the iPhone/iPod Touch (ARM).

OS X will have in the end one SDK. One SDK (with all the great apps like Xcode) where you can develop for every OS X variant. Which is a computer (Intel or PPC) or an iPhone/iPod Touch or any new OS X variant that is coming out in the near future (like a tablet).

About the new kernel in Snow. The Intel and PPC kernels has always been the same. They are just different compiled. The source is the same for a very very good reason! Because it's the "kernel" from an OS like Leopard! They need to be the same! They can't be different because otherwise you would have the same problem like Microsoft. More then one OS for different hardware! It's because of the same kernel we have now just one OS for all the hardware...
 
There seem to be a lot of people who think the G5 system architecture is somehow bad tech now...

My current dual 2Ghz G5 is still faster than my 2.33 Ghz Core2 machine (sure it is a laptop, but it should be faster right?)

Really ? My 2ghz G5 iMac is much slower than my 1st Gen Macbook. A Handbrake encoding on the iMac takes 6 hours, and the same one on the Macbook takes 45 minutes.

I guess in certain circumstances it is slower though... Like maybe Word ?
 
Well, you can't compare in any way the "secret" development of Intel OS X over the past years to the current iPhone SDK.


The reason why Apple is offering the iPhone SDK official for "Intel" is because more developers are going to buy a Intel Mac for developing on the iPhone/iPod.
Imagine they would offer a PPC iPhone SDK (or even the word "PPC" in the specs from the iPhone SDK). Do you realy think "NEW" developers would be attract by this? The processor they are not used to work with... No way! It's in Apple best interest offering this SDK for Intel even when it runs just as good on a PPC Mac. They can say (and they do say that): "Hey potential developers, buy a cheap Mac (it's an Intel computer) and download the free SDK. You are developing on the fly."

It's an Intel iPhone SDK because Apple wanted as many developers as possible to buy an Intel Mac (the processor they are know well and attract by) to make this a huge succes!

This is incorrect. The reason why it is Intel only is because of the iPhone emulator which runs under OS X and is Intel only. Sanctioning a PPC and Intel version of an iPhone emulator would just create to many possibilities for headaches.
 
While I agree that a machine like Mac Pro should be able to serve for half a decade, I don't see what makes anyone think that isn't the case here.

The youngest G5's are two years old (apparently). It's beyond me why anyone would buy one in 2006 when the Intel transition was announced in June 2005, but whatever. Snow Leopard is coming out in the summer of 2009, not tomorrow. The youngest G5's will be three years old by then. Third parties will NOT drop PPC support immediately, you can count on another year's worth of support after the release of SL and those G5's will be 4 years old by then. That's not too shabby, 4 years is a good run.

Also, this "faith in Apple" thing. Even I, who only followed Apple at a distance for many years and didn't get my first Mac until 2005, am very well aware that Mac is the expensive high-maintenance route and that you can expect to be bummed out at least twice a year. With Windows PCs this there's really not much going on except when Intel launches a new platform (it sucked to have a Pentium II when the Pentium III came out, etc etc). But the rest is mostly small incremental updates in clock frequency and such, and the models are usually the same old boring black plastic bricks so there's little chance of being pwned in that regard. But with Apple, the longest time you'll ever be able to enjoy having the latest and greatest is usually about 6 months. When I got my alu iMac 24" 2.4 GHz in December last year, the guy at the desk next to me was miffed because he had a 6 month old white plastic iMac, and now I'm miffed because the 3.06 GHz iMac was announced when mine was only 6 months old, etc etc. My first Mac was a Mini G4 bought in the spring of '05, and I wondered how long it would take before I became one of those pwned suckers, and sure enough, after only a couple of months the Intel transition was announced rendering my shiny new toy obsolete. Yes, they make beautiful hardware and a wonderful OS, but man, forget this "faith" thing... the Apple ride is all about very expensive short bursts of joy soon to be crushed with a sledgehammer.

I don't get it. Short bursts of joy? What was wrong with that white plastic iMac? That 3.06 isn't much better than your 2.4 either. I also wouldn't consider a Mini G4 obsolete being that it can still run Leopard just fine, three years after you bought it.

Honestly, if you get jealous just because an ever-so-slightly faster version of your computer is released... well you might want to get that checked out.
 
I'm so for this its not even funny. The shear idea that somebody would complain about this is hilarious, and a bit hypocritical too. After all if you NEED the latest and greatest, fastest beast of a machine, what are you doing with a PPC G5 ? (or even earlier would be funnier)

Just you leopard, and I promise your life will go on.;)
 
You're not serious are you? You can't make software suddenly overwork a processor into burning itself up. The only way you'll toast a CPU is if the cooling system fails or you decide it would be a good idea to do your next video encoding or 3d rendering job at the beach with a generator.

-mark

Yes I am serious.
 
I do not expect Apple to continue to upgrade an operating system 24 months old, sans things like Safari, which they are continuing to do. Again you seem to absolutely know more about this than I do, but as a PPC owner Apple's current policy doesn't bother me in the slightest.
A 24 month old OS is not old. It is as simple as that.

3.) "Better" in what sense of the word? More and more resources to update older and older equipment? I'd rather Apple be "better" by bringing innovations that take advantage of the newest technologies... indeed I'd be pissed if they didn't do that. Apple doesn't need to grow up.
Better, as in five years of support, obviously. If I buy a computer from Apple, I expect it will be kept safe on the Internet for five years, and no less.

Listen, I get that you're upset Tiger won't be getting regular security upgrades thanks to Snow Leopard but the reality is that neither of us can say with any certainty that this is 100% true.
It is true today. If Apple wants to announce a change, they need to do so.
But it's not a result of Apple not growing up. It's a result of Apple picking its battles and where it spends its money.
I think if that is the case, Apple needs to put little stickers on their computers that say "Good for two years!"
 
Evidence of Intel-only

One big point that supports the theory of an Intel only version of 10.6 is the statement made by Apple that it would have a lot smaller footprint. The easiest way to do this would be to get rid of all PPC code. If you look at all the Applications installed with the 10.5 installer on a Intel machine it installs Universal versions of the apps. Even the system libraries/frameworks like AppKit are universal.
 
Because it's basically going to be a "prettier" version of Leopard. :p

Because it will be more lean and sleek than original leopard....did anyone see the snow leopard in Kung Fu Panda? True, she was not the great king warrior, but she was pretty, lean, sleek, and fast!

BTW, my PB G4 will be 4.5 years old when snow leopard debuts. I'm saving up for a nehelem Intel MBP with snow leopard and will keep the trusty PB G4 as back-up with leopard. :)
 
I think if that is the case, Apple needs to put little stickers on their computers that say "Good for two years!"

Give us a freakin' break. Apple computers are fine for years after you buy them. Just because you aren't getting up to the minute updates means nothing.
 
PPC users are not losing support!!! They can still run Leopard, Tiger, and even Panther if they so choose to. Snow Leopard brings no new features to current Leopard users. Snow Leopard is an optimized version designed specifically for Intel processors. Apple will still support Leopard for a while, which means that PPC users still get support. Had Snow Leopard brought some new feature equivalent to Time Machine that will not be available to PPC users, then you have a right feel miffed. But Leopard remains and so does the support.

Exactly.

PPC users are saying they're losing support. They're not.

1. We're only on 10.5.3. If this thing is released next WWDC (just a guess, not a fact), that would mean ~3 years since the very last G5 machines were being sold. Apple was going with Intel, and people already knew that. Their transition to Intel was known well before the last G5s were sold, so realistically most people who would care about this sort of thing didn't buy the last G5 machines 2 years ago. Hell, I bought my MacBook 2 years ago, and that was like 3-4 months after the release of the MacBook. By the time Snow Leopard is released, it would be around 5 years since most people got their last PPC machine, possibly more.

2. People who are on PPC right now can still run Leopard 10.5.9 or whatever the last version of Leopard is. Most PPC users I know don't even use Leopard. Leopard won't self-destruct.

3. Snow Leopard "may" not be compatible on PPC computers, but maybe because it offers absolutely nothing to PPC users. All the stuff you're read on Snow Leopard is about creating a platform for the future, and not just saving harddrive space. We're talking about optimizing code so that it knows how to run on multiple cores, and that means Intel. I realize that G5s were also dual core, but do you expect Apple to make optimizations for multi-core Intel CPUs, and then spend the same amount of time making the same optimizations for PPC architecture?

4. People are saying Windows would still work on old hardware. Well yes it would, but not because MS decided to continue supporting it. They always used x86 processors, and didn't have to make any sort of transition. And besides, Windows may technically support hardware from like 15 years ago, but look at it. Do you want OSX to be bogged down like Windows? Is comparing OS X and Windows a good idea, seeing as how it doesn't run that great?
 
The people who buy 10.6 (assuming they don't give it away). Same as the people who pay for the intel side of development.

In terms of cost, the question is whether the amount of cash raised by selling copies to PPC owners is more than it costs to update the PPC version.

Point 1: Apple announced the Intel transition at WWDC 2005. Intel Macs started shipping in January 2006.

Point 2: Leopard support will be dropped at the earliest with the introduction of 10.7. If 10.6 is released in a year (lets say WWDC 2009-ish). that means 10.7 might be introduced sometime during 2010 or 2011 and 10.5 support dropped. That's if Apple doesn't decide to provide long-term support because of this exceptional circumstance.

Given those two points, the number of PPC users is going to decrease dramatically because some are going to be replacing their aging machines ANYWAY with new ones in what..the 5-6 years since the intel transition for the poor idiots who decided to buy a mac right then. Even more years for the people who bought older machines. That's a MINIMUM of 5-6 years if you bought your mac at the worst time ever, even longer if you bought it before. (And if you bought it AFTER the intel transition was announced well then. I have no words for that. Caveat emptor. Really.)

So with a smaller and smaller user base, should Apple just decide to throw more money at work and people to keep supporting PPC? ffs, they won't even backport a lot of new things in Leopard to Tiger. Just supporting Tiger and Leopard for longer makes a lot more sense. I'd appreciate it if those engineers and that money went to R&D to improve the stuff I saw at WWDC this year, not to provide support for an architecture they switched away from back in 2006! I don't give a *&#$ about smaller installs and no old PPC stuff in Snow Leopard, really. I just don't want the time and effort spent on making all these things work on PPC when they could be spent working on, say, (insert every single thing discussed about Snow Leopard at WWDC) or (anythign about the new iPhone OS).

Not only that, but the other reason to switch to a new OS are your apps. Leopard and Snow Leopard in particular have a LOT of developer candy, even more than end-user candy (Time Machine? Spaces? psh, please, Core Animation alone is jawdroppingly awesome). I still can't get over some of the amazing stuff I saw at some of the WWDC sessions earlier today. And I'd love to use them, and it's easy for me because I don't have that many apps and legacy code to deal with. But for those people who have customers still on the likes of Panther?!?! I can't imagine what they would do if they could just do whatever they want. Prolly snow leopard only apps..even leopard itself..lots and lots and lots of improvements for developers.

All this complaining because either some people bought their PPC Mac at the wrong time or don't want to purchase a new Mac in 2010 or 2011? OR, they just don't want to keep using their old OSs even beyond then? I still can't believe the number of people I know who still use Jaguar or Panther, really. It's so silly I can't believe it. Half the arguments are specious and the other half are just bitter.

Let me just say now that I have nothing against PPC as an architecture. I still have PPC macs, but the wear and tear and the **** performance (compared to intel for most tasks) and the high cost of maintenance (new batteries, more memory, fixing issues..) is making me really reconsider keeping them and just replacing them with Intel Macs. Not only can I run alternative operating systems (a must-have for me), but also it's just a lot cheaper than keeping the old ones.


I guess my main point is that Apple can't support these forever. There's always going to be people bitching about it even if it's 10 years from now (why the HELL you'd want to be using a PPC mac 10 years from now is beyond me...) or if it was right now.
 
What does apple supplied video card mean? Does that mean it needs a graphics card? If not how do you have a non apple supplied card? Mod it?

It means a vid-card that will have drivers built-in to the OS. Cards that were never Apple shipped or Apple-approved won't have drivers on the DVD with which to boot the DVD. You just add an official card, and boot up that way, then add the drivers after install for the un-official card. As long as the older drivers still work.
 
Yes I am serious.

Well you're wrong. Faster software only gets faster by writing better, streamlined and optimized code for the target architecture. By doing this you are not going to suddenly melt the CPU down.

-mark
 
This is incorrect. The reason why it is Intel only is because of the iPhone emulator which runs under OS X and is Intel only. Sanctioning a PPC and Intel version of an iPhone emulator would just create to many possibilities for headaches.

Well, you are incorrect.
The iPhone emulator and the complete iPhone SDK is running just as good on PPC as on Intel. That's a fact, not something I invented here.
For developing I still use my PPC G5 instead of my one year old Intel iMac.
And I use the latest iPhone SDK for developing apps on the iPhone and for native Tiger/Leopard OS X!

My point is like you say. Even when it's proven and well known by Apple and long time Apple developers that the iPhone SDK (since beta 1) is running on both architectures it would cause headaches and confusion. That's why the SDK is saying, just like "Snow", Intel only.

If you want this to be a huge succes (the iPhone development) it's in the best interest of Apple to follow this strategy. And it's working well! Just look at all the new developers for the iPhone!
Well, guess what! They are also learning to work with Apple Developer Tools ;). They are just the same. So don't be astonished if you see iPhone developers, in a year or so, releasing new apps for OS X Leopard or Snow leopard.
 
Really ? My 2ghz G5 iMac is much slower than my 1st Gen Macbook. A Handbrake encoding on the iMac takes 6 hours, and the same one on the Macbook takes 45 minutes.

I guess in certain circumstances it is slower though... Like maybe Word ?

Handbrake may not be using Altivec on the PPC hardware...handbrake has always been slow on my G5 system.

Pro software runs faster on my G5, but not by much; but it goes to show that the G5 is still a very capable chip when programmed correctly.

-mark
 
Butt Leopard? Er, I mean, Snow Leopard? Is that the best they can do?

I think they should call it "OS X Liger."
 
I think this is a bad move by apple. They have so many PPC users that will be very disapointed.
 
Likewise those who are saying that it's definitively gone and saying good riddance should also be waiting for the official announcement. It was a Developer's conference, don't you think they would have told developers that the new OS features would not be available on PPC machines? Why have them waste money working on getting universal binaries to compile? . . . [edited]

Why should developers bother with performance enhancements on PPC applications anymore? Will they start ignoring bug-fixes as well? Will you start getting, "our latest version fixes that bug, but is only available on Intel based Macs." as an answer for a 3 year old Computer?

PPC users are not an insignificant install base yet, so it makes no sense for Apple to ignore them on a non-free upgrade.

I'd put money on them still having PPC support in Snow Leopard, it's just not quite to the point of being ready for developers to play with yet.

Apple won't ignore PPC owners and will build apps for both Leopard and Snow Leopard, and thus the apps will help buffer the transition to all Intel (SL will have few if any new features) but I doubt SL will be for PPCs. Apple may also want to encourage short-term development for Universal Binaries because many programs may have a large PPC install-base that will not go past OS X.5 and many developers probably won't want to lose their customers. This may also help PPC owners make the transition, but I believe Apple is also be indicating the future for OS X.
 
4. People are saying Windows would still work on old hardware.
I'm skeptical how true this actually is for Vista. Microsoft is getting sued in a class action lawsuit because Vista doesn't work right on computers sold in the winter of 2006. If Vista worked on hardware as old as people are claiming, I don't see how these suits aren't be dismissed out of hand.
 
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