Mac OS X Updates and Next Generation Finder Development

[AidenShaw]

This is about a month's worth or crap on my work system.

And the harm this is causing if you don't look in this directory?

None, really.

If the disk starts to run out of space, a wizard will popup and do a scan for temp and other unnecessary files - and you can click "OK" and they're gone. Grandma can handle that just fine, without every knowing where the temp files are.

If you're a Suzy Homemaker and like to do your own spontaneous cleanups - you can:

Start -> All Programs -> Accessories -> System Tools -> Disk Cleanup

(and if you want copy that shortcut to your desktop or other convenient place if you need to "wash your hands" a lot). The early comment about running Disk Cleanup as a scheduled task is also a good one - if you're the type who prefers to have the maids come by regularly and do the housework.
__________________

This conversation is about as relevant to the real quality of the system as the whining that the cables in the iMacIntel weren't as neatly placed as in the iMac G5.

And, BTW, OSX simply has had an automatic defragger for some files since 10.3.... (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25668)

 

[nxent]

what is all this work that needs to be done on the finder? it's always worked well for me. the only thing i'd really consider changing is maybe making it faster by integrating spotlight. maybe a few more previews, but that's all i can think of. forgive my lack of imagination...

 

[ShavenYak]

my camera (Minolta) shows up on the desktop, as do all other camera's I've seen, except for Canon (based) ones, for some reason.
I don't use the cable anymore though, bought a USB-2 card reader, so much faster

Canon cameras typically default to using PTP, which does not mount the camera as a drive but allows certain apps on the computer (iPhoto, Image Capture, the Canon-provided utilities) to talk to the camera and transfer photos. I think some of them do have an option to act as USB mass storage, where they will show up as a drive.

I'm so glad Canon put USB 2.0 in the Rebel XT; transferring 6MP raw files over USB 1.1 with the old Rebel was like watching the grass grow. Yeah, I have a card reader too, but it didn't always make it into the camera bag. Now it doesn't matter - the camera is pretty much as fast as my card reader.

 

[bugfaceuk]

And the harm this is causing if you don't look in this directory?

None, really.

If the disk starts to run out of space, a wizard will popup and do a scan for temp and other unnecessary files - and you can click "OK" and they're gone. Grandma can handle that just fine, without every knowing where the temp files are....

LMFAO, believe me you know you hard disk is getting full in Windows LONG before the clean-up wizard appears... (and what is it with MS and wizards? Is XP the fourth in the Lord of the Rings trilogy or what?)... because your c.o.m.p.u.t.e.r. s..l..o..w..s d...o....w.....n a l.......o........t

 

[McKs]

LMFAO, believe me you know you hard disk is getting full in Windows LONG before the clean-up wizard appears... (and what is it with MS and wizards? Is XP the fourth in the Lord of the Rings trilogy or what?)... because your c.o.m.p.u.t.e.r. s..l..o..w..s d...o....w.....n a l.......o........t

I hear you, when you're computer requires wizardry to perform even the most basic tasks, that should tell you to keep away, imo.
I always find it difficult to believe people so easily except this 'you're too stupid to do this yourself' philosophy of Windows.

 

[bugfaceuk]

I hear you, when you're computer requires wizardry to perform even the most basic tasks, that should tell you to keep away, imo.
I always find it difficult to believe people so easily except this 'you're too stupid to do this yourself' philosophy of Windows.

Yup, Gandalf be gone! However is it "you're too stupid" or "We can't be bothered to design an easy to use system so we'll take a task you shouldn't have to worry about, and call it Wizard because that sounds easy, right?"...?

 

[DStaal]

However in general I don't "get" the problems with finder at all. As a long standing windows user, and an Amiga user before Win95, I have no issues with finder. In general over the last year as my Mac experience has developed I've found that in general I've found better ways of doing everything, and my problems have been more centred around all the MS "training" I've had over the last 10 years.

I'm guessing the people who are annoyed with the current Finder are like me: long-time Apple fans. I used OS 7-9's Finder, and GS OS's Finder before that. Compared to those, OS X's Finder feels three-quarters finished and clunky. Compared to Windows' explorer or OS/2's desktop the OS X Finder is great. But we long-time fans know what it could be.

There are some advanced things that OS X's Finder does better than Classic's Finder. But there are several basic things the Classic Finder did better, and I miss them.

 

[JJTiger1]

I'm guessing the people who are annoyed with the current Finder are like me: long-time Apple fans. I used OS 7-9's Finder, and GS OS's Finder before that. Compared to those, OS X's Finder feels three-quarters finished and clunky. Compared to Windows' explorer or OS/2's desktop the OS X Finder is great. But we long-time fans know what it could be.

There are some advanced things that OS X's Finder does better than Classic's Finder. But there are several basic things the Classic Finder did better, and I miss them.

I miss the Mac OS 9.2.2 Command F that launched the Mac OS 9.x version of Sherlock.

OSX 10.4.4 Command F: hoovers.

Sherlock 3: hoovers.

 

[jouster]

While they're at it, allow Column View to sort by date!

++

 

[SiliconAddict]

And the harm this is causing if you don't look in this directory?

None, really.

If the disk starts to run out of space, a wizard will popup and do a scan for temp and other unnecessary files - and you can click "OK" and they're gone. Grandma can handle that just fine, without every knowing where the temp files are.

If you're a Suzy Homemaker and like to do your own spontaneous cleanups - you can:

Start -> All Programs -> Accessories -> System Tools -> Disk Cleanup

(and if you want copy that shortcut to your desktop or other convenient place if you need to "wash your hands" a lot). The early comment about running Disk Cleanup as a scheduled task is also a good one - if you're the type who prefers to have the maids come by regularly and do the housework.
__________________

This conversation is about as relevant to the real quality of the system as the whining that the cables in the iMacIntel weren't as neatly placed as in the iMac G5.

And, BTW, OSX simply has had an automatic defragger for some files since 10.3.... (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25668)

Umm no not it isn't. First off the average user doesn't know about disk cleanup. I'm saying this as someone who supports a crap load of Windows users. They DON'T know about this feature because it's buried. And scheduled tasks? Yah right. Walk up to a Windows user and ask them to schedule a task on their XP machine. You will get a blank stare. Yes I'm well aware of what Windows is capable of. I use task scheduler to run several maintenance scripts once a month on my computer including removing the Prefetch cache once every other month. I'm not a newbie when it comes to Windows.
My point being is hiding that folder away in some location that is also hidden from then end user is counter intuitive. Esp users coming from the 9x platform who were VERY use to going into c:\windows\temp and blowing everything away.
We are getting off topic. My primary point was that OS X's file system is laid out in a much more rational manner. So much so that Vista is going to be adopting some of the pathings of *nix. When it ships go check out there the profiles are located and what they are called.

 

[50548]

I'm guessing the people who are annoyed with the current Finder are like me: long-time Apple fans. I used OS 7-9's Finder, and GS OS's Finder before that. Compared to those, OS X's Finder feels three-quarters finished and clunky. Compared to Windows' explorer or OS/2's desktop the OS X Finder is great. But we long-time fans know what it could be.

There are some advanced things that OS X's Finder does better than Classic's Finder. But there are several basic things the Classic Finder did better, and I miss them.

I agree with you, but with the simplicity of GS/OS and System 7 came lack of stability and many features that are nowadays present in OS X...besides, which features are ya missing from GS/OS or System 7? Please?

Apart from some inconsistencies here and there, I don't think the Finder is crap:

1) except for my Intellimouse Explorer, which often does not "see" the buttons I wanna click...I always have to click elsewhere and then back on my original target...do you guys know WHY this happens??

2) Finder windows usually don't memorize their size when I close them, especially for Column View with long names...any suggestions?

 

[bugfaceuk]

Umm no not it isn't. First off the average user doesn't know about disk cleanup. I'm saying this as someone who supports a crap load of Windows users. They DON'T know about this feature because it's buried. And scheduled tasks? Yah right. Walk up to a Windows user and ask them to schedule a task on their XP machine. You will get a blank stare. Yes I'm well aware of what Windows is capable of. I use task scheduler to run several maintenance scripts once a month on my computer including removing the Prefetch cache once every other month. I'm not a newbie when it comes to Windows.
My point being is hiding that folder away in some location that is also hidden from then end user is counter intuitive. Esp users coming from the 9x platform who were VERY use to going into c:\windows\temp and blowing everything away.
We are getting off topic. My primary point was that OS X's file system is laid out in a much more rational manner. So much so that Vista is going to be adopting some of the pathings of *nix. When it ships go check out there the profiles are located and what they are called.

How can you say that the average user doesn't know about disk-cleanup???? Surely everyone has explored (count 'em)

Start -> All Programs -> Accessories -> System Tools -> Disk Cleanup

5 levels deep into their start menu?

Honestly.

I'm guessing the people who are annoyed with the current Finder are like me: long-time Apple fans. I used OS 7-9's Finder, and GS OS's Finder before that. Compared to those, OS X's Finder feels three-quarters finished and clunky. Compared to Windows' explorer or OS/2's desktop the OS X Finder is great. But we long-time fans know what it could be.

There are some advanced things that OS X's Finder does better than Classic's Finder. But there are several basic things the Classic Finder did better, and I miss them.

What's missing/screwed? Not a challenge, I just don't know!

I miss the Mac OS 9.2.2 Command F that launched the Mac OS 9.x version of Sherlock.

OSX 10.4.4 Command F: hoovers.

Sherlock 3: hoovers.

I never understood what Sherlock was for, what-it-do?

 

[darh]

How can you say that the average user doesn't know about disk-cleanup???? Surely everyone has explored (count 'em)

Start -> All Programs -> Accessories -> System Tools -> Disk Cleanup

5 levels deep into their start menu?

Honestly.

no really people honestly don't know that..! and that isn't so weird, for example my dad uses his windows pc for his work he only uses the office package and he really have no idea there is something like disk cleanup, he doenst even know why you have to use something like that.

 

[bugfaceuk]

no really people honestly don't know that..! and that isn't so weird, for example my dad uses his windows pc for his work he only uses the office package and he really have no idea there is something like disk cleanup, he doenst even know why you have to use something like that.

Sorry that was my Brit sarcasm there! Roughly translated would read:

"Microsoft seriously expect people to explore 5 levels deep to find an application that they shouldn't really need to run, which then asks a series of largely non-sensical to the common man questions, that makes them feel edgey about deleting stuff and then offers to compact it so that you computer runs much more slowly in future."

 

[JJTiger1]

I never understood what Sherlock was for, what-it-do?

Launch Sherlock, and find out.

The kludge to using the old Sherlock 2 is to launch Classic and then launch Sherlock 2.
=-=-=

 

[Project]

How can you say that the average user doesn't know about disk-cleanup???? Surely everyone has explored (count 'em)

Start -> All Programs -> Accessories -> System Tools -> Disk Cleanup

5 levels deep into their start menu?

Honestly.

You are vastly overstating the PC competencies of the average user. Even the name disk cleanup is not obvious to the average user. It sounds complicated and most people wouldnt bother running it unless they knew specifically what it did. If it said 'junk cleaner', then perhaps, but disk cleaup, despite making perfect sense to us doesnt translate to 'cleanup all of my ****** files clogging up my systems zen like layout.

And what is an accessory? That menu should be the preserve of 'desktop accessories' such as the calculator. It would make much more sense to call the folder that inhabits all of the maintenance utilities 'maintenance'.

Honestly, the Windows file system is a complete mess for all but competent users. OSX is light years ahead in usability in this respect, making the need for a fully functioning file browser less apparent than on the Windows platform.

As for Pathfinder, I dont really use it because it doesnt feel part of the OS. Having to click the link all the time etc to open it becomes tedius. There are however, a lot of good ideas. I think Apple could implement a lot of the features in here such as the drop stack, but what I would like to see more than anything is something like Quicksilver implemented into the OS. It would be transparent to novice users, but provide an insane level of file manipulation for power users, without clogging up toolbars etc. You could have the shelf, iTunes navigation, global notifications etc all in the one app.

Please buy Quicksilver Mr Jobs.

 

[bugfaceuk]

Launch Sherlock, and find out.

The kludge to using the old Sherlock 2 is to launch Classic and then launch Sherlock 2.
=-=-=

Trapped on a windows machine...

 

[DStaal]

I agree with you, but with the simplicity of GS/OS and System 7 came lack of stability and many features that are nowadays present in OS X...besides, which features are ya missing from GS/OS or System 7? Please?

Ah, but the lack os stablility wasn't the Finder's fault. And yes, there are more features in the current version.

Some things I'd like to see fixed: (I haven't checked some of these in a while, I admit)

• Icons should be movable and placeable, always. No matter who owns the folder. (The user's preference controls how it is seen. This is mostly true, but see next point.)
• Icons should stay in place, relative to the window, once placed. Again, regardless of who owns the folder.
• Snap to grid should not resize the grid, ever. Unless specifically asked. (System update changed the font size? Tough.)
• Snap to grid should never move the start point of the grid in less than whole-grid incriments. (Dropping a file above the top file in a folder should not invalidate the whole grid.)
• While we're at it: dropping an icon on a folder should place it in the first open location below the current contents of that folder. Don't go right or left: I don't want two scroll bars. Definately don't go up! (Or the current system: just put it over whatever's there... These of course assume there isn't a sort on the folder.)
• I hate the brushed-metal windows. I should be able to choose to never see them by default. (I can set every window I use, and new subwindows of those, to Aqua, but the default for new disks and the trash is still brushed-metal.)
• Spotlight's neat, but I want a find as well.
• The most common view settings I want to change are for the current folder. Not all folders. Make that the default.

Minor things, all in all, but I notice their lack. Some should probably have a preference someplace.

Apart from some inconsistencies here and there, I don't think the Finder is crap:

I don't think it is crap. I just think it can be fixed.

 

[darh]

Sorry that was my Brit sarcasm there! Roughly translated would read:

"Microsoft seriously expect people to explore 5 levels deep to find an application that they shouldn't really need to run, which then asks a series of largely non-sensical to the common man questions, that makes them feel edgey about deleting stuff and then offers to compact it so that you computer runs much more slowly in future."

hehe ok sorry for mis-understanding then

 

[bugfaceuk]

hehe ok sorry for mis-understanding then

Two countries seperated by a common language

You are vastly overstating the PC competencies of the average user. Even the name disk cleanup is not obvious to the average user. It sounds complicated and most people wouldnt bother running it unless they knew specifically what it did. If it said 'junk cleaner', then perhaps, but disk cleaup, despite making perfect sense to us doesnt translate to 'cleanup all of my ****** files clogging up my systems zen like layout.

See above post... I agree with everything you say!

And what is an accessory? That menu should be the preserve of 'desktop accessories' such as the calculator. It would make much more sense to call the folder that inhabits all of the maintenance utilities 'maintenance'.

An accessory is a hand-bag or nice broach, or a Bat-a-rang.

Honestly, the Windows file system is a complete mess for all but competent users. OSX is light years ahead in usability in this respect, making the need for a fully functioning file browser less apparent than on the Windows platform.

It is a mess, but don't worry WinFS will be released. *

As for Pathfinder, I dont really use it because it doesnt feel part of the OS. Having to click the link all the time etc to open it becomes tedius. There are however, a lot of good ideas. I think Apple could implement a lot of the features in here such as the drop stack, but what I would like to see more than anything is something like Quicksilver implemented into the OS. It would be transparent to novice users, but provide an insane level of file manipulation for power users, without clogging up toolbars etc. You could have the shelf, iTunes navigation, global notifications etc all in the one app.

Please buy Quicksilver Mr Jobs.

Off to search for quicksilver.

* The omission of a date is not accidental.

 

[darh]

Two countries seperated by a common language

well i'm living closer to great britain then the US (the netherlands)

 

[bugfaceuk]

well i'm living closer to great britain then the US (the netherlands)

So what's your excuse then?

 

[50548]

Sorry, man, but you sound confusing...please clarify:

Icons should be movable and placeable, always. No matter who owns the folder. (The user's preference controls how it is seen. This is mostly true, but see next point.)
Icons should stay in place, relative to the window, once placed. Again, regardless of who owns the folder.

Icons are always movable AND stay in place, provided you set the view options accordingly. But we're talking about UNIX here, and I can't agree with your opinion that icons would only represent OS 8's "aliases", paying no regard to the real place of an application.

This is confusing and against basic HI guidelines, as well as against user-based privileges.

Snap to grid should not resize the grid, ever. Unless specifically asked. (System update changed the font size? Tough.)
Snap to grid should never move the start point of the grid in less than whole-grid incriments. (Dropping a file above the top file in a folder should not invalidate the whole grid.)

Another confusing remark; a grid is a grid, period. I've never heard of a "resized" grid, unless you're changing the size of icons. As for the dropped file, I simply didn't understand.

While we're at it: dropping an icon on a folder should place it in the first open location below the current contents of that folder. Don't go right or left: I don't want two scroll bars. Definately don't go up! (Or the current system: just put it over whatever's there... These of course assume there isn't a sort on the folder.)

If I understand you correctly, you're talking about the column view; I kinda agree with you on that, when side scrolls are too fast and intrusive and we don't feel like moving elsewhere with the icon.

I hate the brushed-metal windows. I should be able to choose to never see them by default. (I can set every window I use, and new subwindows of those, to Aqua, but the default for new disks and the trash is still brushed-metal.)
[*]Spotlight's neat, but I want a find as well.
[*]The most common view settings I want to change are for the current folder. Not all folders. Make that the default.

Brushed metal is a matter of taste; but it would be useful to have a Shapeshifter-like thing built into the System; Spotlight IS find, so I don't understand why people complain...its interface could be improved, granted...but I prefer Spotlight as a find that works MUCH better and faster than in the old days of System 7/8; as for the default view, it's again a personal taste, but I am with you on that...current folder seems more coherent with the HI.

 

[DStaal]

Sorry, man, but you sound confusing...please clarify:

Icons are always movable AND stay in place, provided you set the view options accordingly. But we're talking about UNIX here, and I can't agree with your opinion that icons would only represent OS 8's "aliases", paying no regard to the real place of an application.

This is confusing and against basic HI guidelines, as well as against user-based privileges.

On the current Finder, if I move an icon in a folder that I don't have write permissions to the new location will not be saved. The next time I start the Finder everything will be reset to where ever it was. I feel the visible locations of the icons (within the folders) should be a user preference. Regardless of who owns the folder.

That is: Within a window/folder, I should be able to move the icons around however I wish, regardless of who I am, and they should stay there. Of course I can't move them outside the folder: I can't move the file.

Another confusing remark; a grid is a grid, period. I've never heard of a "resized" grid, unless you're changing the size of icons. As for the dropped file, I simply didn't understand.

Neither had I, until I got to OS X. Then I had it happen to me: The Finder resized a grid, and when I moved icons in a folder they didn't line up with the old grid.

The dropped file is a case where the grid moves: If I move an icon such that the window needs to scroll up to see all of it, that window's grid has moved. If I'm snapping to grid, again nothing will line up.

If I understand you correctly, you're talking about the column view; I kinda agree with you on that, when side scrolls are too fast and intrusive and we don't feel like moving elsewhere with the icon.

I'm still talking about icon view. Here I'm talking about overflow: I drop a file on a closed folder, where does it place that file in the window when I open it? If there is space in the window, use it. But if there isn't I prefer to expand down, not up or sideways. Or both. Or just cover up what's already there. (All of which I've seen from OS X's Finder.)

Brushed metal is a matter of taste; but it would be useful to have a Shapeshifter-like thing built into the System; Spotlight IS find, so I don't understand why people complain...its interface could be improved, granted...but I prefer Spotlight as a find that works MUCH better and faster than in the old days of System 7/8; as for the default view, it's again a personal taste, but I am with you on that...current folder seems more coherent with the HI.

Spotlight's nice, but sometimes it's overkill. And sometimes it doesn't return everything.

 

[peharri]

Played with Jaguar last night (I have a Beige G3 and didn't want to run that XPostFacto program or whatever it's called and wipe everything), and was reminded both how much better the Jaguar Finder was compared to what came afterwards, and what its (massive) shortfalls were. The BG3 is my central music server, and acts as a web access point for my living room too, at least until my financial troubles are dealt with and I can feel comfortable dropping the $700 or so needed for a decent speed/spec Mac mini.

I was reminded of the problems because like everyone who runs Jaguar on a Beige G3, I ran out of disk space. Whereupon Jaguar took it upon itself to delete every single preference, from every spacial setting on the Finder (everything defaulting to butt-ugly over-sized icons and fonts, icons all over the place, and all windows non-spacial with white backgrounds. And no, you can't use "All Windows" to set the defaults), to where iTunes is supposed to store music. Gah! Dock was reset too.

But once you've put the effort into it, you do have spacial browsing in a clean, nice, way on Jaguar. Once you move over to Panther, it just seems horrible, with the effort you have to take to get the settings right just not worth the trouble, which means you end up with an ugly mix of Panther's ghastly browser and the odd spacial window.

I know everyone's moving to iApp-based file management, and Spotlight-like "My HD is a big version of Google" searching, but, well, I'd kind of like a good, updated, version of the spacial paradigm. People were upset enough with Jag's implementation, it's amazing to me that the situation has gotten worse, rather than better.