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I'm ending up looking at Finder from the perspective of Windows Explorer and there's a few things that I miss and that I hope will eventually make it into a revision:

1. At least provide me with the option to have sub-folders appear at the top of the current folder listing, sorted alphabetically, as this would allow navigation of the file system (particularly in Column View) so much faster.

2. Consider the merits of the Explorer's tree display that enables you to easily pick and move files from one deeply nested folder to another without needing either a second window open or going through a spring-loaded folder navigation process. The spring-loaded navigation of folders is fine for a "move one set of files" process, but if you need to repeat the process then you've got to go through the spring-loaded thing again. Dunno if that makes much sense...

3. Allow me to Cut files as well as Copy them

That's about it and I know that I'm not thinking much "outside the box" here. The Finder is, I think, better than either My Computer or Windows Explorer, but these 3 aspects I do miss.
 
Why is Spotlight not merged into the Finder yet?

This drew me baffled when Apple did not merge Spotlight into the Finder and had a separate button to do a search, seemed odd to me.

Well here is hoping for the best. :)

I was happy with 10.2 and was not sure I would upgrade to 10.3, then I upgraded and happy about that, and here I am using 10.4. ;) :)
 
Oh, that's how "Disk Cleanup" works on an Apple !

peharri said:
I was reminded of the problems because like everyone who runs Jaguar on a Beige G3, I ran out of disk space. Whereupon Jaguar took it upon itself to delete every single preference, from every spacial setting on the Finder (everything defaulting to butt-ugly over-sized icons and fonts, icons all over the place, and all windows non-spacial with white backgrounds.
At least you didn't have a wizard pop up ! :D
 
From the job description they list:

Experienced in using STL, Boost.

For those that aren't aware of Boost: http://www.boost.org

With C++ STL and Boost it would appear this Finder is a transitional solution which, at best, is written in ObjC++. Spotlight being integrated into Finder and developed with low level Carbon APIs like MDQuery would suggest that Finder for OS X 10.5 if it is to be a pure ObjC Cocoa Application will have to go through another revision before it sheds its Carbon payload.
 
Kelmon said:
2. Consider the merits of the Explorer's tree display that enables you to easily pick and move files from one deeply nested folder to another without needing either a second window open or going through a spring-loaded folder navigation process. The spring-loaded navigation of folders is fine for a "move one set of files" process, but if you need to repeat the process then you've got to go through the spring-loaded thing again. Dunno if that makes much sense...

I think this could be implemented into the Column View pretty easily. Just let the disclosure triangles on the right of the folder be clickable, opening and collapsing whatever subfolders are in a folder underneath it, instead of in the next column.

Why is Spotlight not merged into the Finder yet?

This drew me baffled when Apple did not merge Spotlight into the Finder and had a separate button to do a search, seemed odd to me.

Could you elaborate? Theres a spotlight search in every single finder window and dialogue (excellent when attaching files. Just type in what you want and BOOM). Or do you mean something more advanced?

One thing that could improve the spotlight in Finder is using a similar search bar to iTunes. Currently, the UI is pretty useless. The bar at the top shouldnt give me options of searching Server, Home, HD etc. It should have file type along the top like iTunes has Music/Podcasts/Videos etc. Its really annoying having to search for say, a PDF, then having to scroll through a ton of unrelated file types or closing the disclosure triangle to get rid of images etc. A bar at the top could instantly narrow down my results to JUST this file type, which is a whole lot more productive than JUST search the home folder.
 
As a switcher, I personally found the Finder to be the most troubling application on the Mac. I've sort have gotten used to it now, but it most certainly can be improved greatly. It is very critical that Apple up the ante on Finder as it is such a critical, core application for the OS.

My two main hopes:
1. Cut/Paste files and folders (mv). Seriously, I was blown away to find I couldn't do this on OSX!
2. An Address Bar. And no, I don't want to use the 'Go' command, I want a URL.
3. Give me the option to see hidden folders and files like /usr but don't show all those weird files on my desktop then.
4. I am also part of the club that doesn't prefer folders to be mixed alphabetically with regular files in List view.
5. Make it highly customizable.
6. Make it bad ass.
 
Zatko said:
As a switcher, I personally found the Finder to be the most troubling application on the Mac. I've sort have gotten used to it now, but it most certainly can be improved greatly. It is very critical that Apple up the ante on Finder as it is such a critical, core application for the OS.

My two main hopes:
1. Cut/Paste files and folders (mv). Seriously, I was blown away to find I couldn't do this on OSX!
2. An Address Bar. And no, I don't want to use the 'Go' command, I want a URL.
3. Give me the option to see hidden folders and files like /usr but don't show all those weird files on my desktop then.
4. I am also part of the club that doesn't prefer folders to be mixed alphabetically with regular files in List view.
5. Make it highly customizable.
6. Make it bad ass.

I agree on all your points. I also think they should make it like every other app on the fricken system, whereby the delete key deletes stuff (with a confirmation dialog), and the return key enters the directory/launches the selected file. Serioulsy, this is so messed that those keys do completely different behaviour to what anyone would expect. Does the return key on a file in itunes try to rename it? Weird...
 
I agree that a what you SEE in a folder should be tied to the user, not the owner.

However, the idea that each folder is a 'thing' and should retain its own size and layout is part of the spatial UI, not the default OS X UI. Clicking the little pill button on the top right puts you into spatial mode, like OS 9. Here you will find that all your folders open up as their own 'thing' and retain their size and prefs, as they are spatially organized. Mixing the two is sort of a mixed metaphor.
 
the.snitch said:
I agree on all your points. I also think they should make it like every other app on the fricken system, whereby the delete key deletes stuff (with a confirmation dialog), and the return key enters the directory/launches the selected file. Serioulsy, this is so messed that those keys do completely different behaviour to what anyone would expect. Does the return key on a file in itunes try to rename it? Weird...

Indeed, the delete and enter keys are not very intuitive.
 
New Finder

What must a new finder have?

I dislike the difficulty I have moving files from folder to folder. I think Windows is just as bad.

I like SpotLight except its difficult to find where the file is. The metaphor seems to be that what ever SpotLight finds needs to opened or executed. I seem to notice SpotLight and the finders rough edges when I want to find something and move it.

Another annoyance is drag and dropping something to a folder. Seems like I get there too early or late because just as I am going to leave go the fold pops open and I drop in the wrong place. That seems worse than the type ahead function in Word. ARGH!!

My problems is that right now I can talk about the annoyance and can offer no suggestions for making it better. I tend to dislike folks who can find fault or say something can't be done too often. It takes no talent. Solutions take talent.

Jim
 
prewwii said:
I like SpotLight except its difficult to find where the file is. The metaphor seems to be that what ever SpotLight finds needs to opened or executed. I seem to notice SpotLight and the finders rough edges when I want to find something and move it.

Another annoyance is drag and dropping something to a folder. Seems like I get there too early or late because just as I am going to leave go the fold pops open and I drop in the wrong place. That seems worse than the type ahead function in Word. ARGH!!

I fully agree with these 2 remarks; indeed Spotlight has problems in terms of telling where the file is, since we don't always want to open it; clicking on the "info" button is not really enough.

Your second observation is also correct and concerns an annoying problem in the Finder, to which I see no obvious solution. It might be corrected a little bit, though, with the "timing" feature of spring-loaded folders...
 
BRLawyer said:
I fully agree with these 2 remarks; indeed Spotlight has problems in terms of telling where the file is, since we don't always want to open it; clicking on the "info" button is not really enough.

Your second observation is also correct and concerns an annoying problem in the Finder, to which I see no obvious solution. It might be corrected a little bit, though, with the "timing" feature of spring-loaded folders...

I agree completely on the Spotlight thing, when it is a file you are looking for (or that Spotlight has found) perhaps it should always have an "enclosing folder" icon, when it is an application, perhaps it's OK to not have that.

In general spotlight always does the job for me, it finds what I want (including just based on filename, but perhaps that is because I only ever search for things it does understand??), but it would be nice for it to be a little easier to get the results in a window.

The drag and drop thing I just don't get that problem. Are you refering to the "hover over folder while dragging for it to open" thing?
 
bugfaceuk said:
I agree completely on the Spotlight thing, when it is a file you are looking for (or that Spotlight has found) perhaps it should always have an "enclosing folder" icon, when it is an application, perhaps it's OK to not have that.

In general spotlight always does the job for me, it finds what I want (including just based on filename, but perhaps that is because I only ever search for things it does understand??), but it would be nice for it to be a little easier to get the results in a window.

The drag and drop thing I just don't get that problem. Are you refering to the "hover over folder while dragging for it to open" thing?

Yes, indeed. I have this problem when trying to save a file which is on the desktop onto a specific folder; problem is, if you use the column view, you may see an annoying feature, which is the "automatic" movement to the right with little wait times. So sometimes I am just passing over a folder and it opens (or scrolls up/down) without my consent for that...so in the end I drop a file by mistake onto another folder, and then I have to go all the way back to that folder to rescue the file...
 
BRLawyer said:
Yes, indeed. I have this problem when trying to save a file which is on the desktop onto a specific folder; problem is, if you use the column view, you may see an annoying feature, which is the "automatic" movement to the right with little wait times. So sometimes I am just passing over a folder and it opens (or scrolls up/down) without my consent for that...so in the end I drop a file by mistake onto another folder, and then I have to go all the way back to that folder to rescue the file...

Ahhh OK, that explains why I don't get the problem, I don't tend to work in column view (that thing alone put me off mac's for ages... and it still screws with me).

And no I can't say what's wrong with it, somehow I just don't "think" that way :/
 
What I'd like to see

1. A genuinely seperated spacial and browser environment, not one where the other pops up unexpectedly (browser users probably never get this, but spacial users get this with irritating frequency.)

2. An equivalent of the Explorer "File system tree" pane that can be brought up optionally when using the browser environment.

3. An end to unpredictable behaviour. For example: you have a window at the side of the screen, with one part of it slightly out of reach. You drag a file to it to drop it in a directory. Just as you release the mouse button, the window moves, and the file drops into the wrong directory. You undo, try again and the same thing happens. In the end, the only way to get this to work is to move the window, which this hack is supposed to alleviate the need to do. (Here's a suggestion, why not just let the user go to the side of the screen if the window's not completely visible, and as they "push" against the side, temporarily slide the window under the cursor into view?)

On a similar note, the thing that causes folders to automatically open if you either hit space or wait enough time when you're dragging and dropping is great, but please disable the "wait enough time" thing, because 90% of the time it comes up when I don't want it. There is nothing that undermines the whole drag-and-drop paradigm more than the computer second guessing you all the time. You can always make the "wait enough time" an option, but by default it should be disabled completely (rather than set to a couple of seconds as it is by default.) Likewise, once you've deliberately opened a window by hitting space while dragging and dropping, don't close it until the drag and drop operation is complete (or let us hit shift while hanging over the close button or something.)

If there's one thing I absolutely cannot stand about the "Mac way", it's the computer second guessing me all the time. If I want to do something, let me tell you I want to do it.

4. Either user controlled "gaps" between icons, or better, sane ones to begin with. I can set the font and icon size to something sane, but for some reason each icon ends up looking like there's enough space for ten more between each one.

5. Dock improvements. Folders should have easily customizable icons, or perhaps should even have icons that reflect, in some way, their contents. At the moment, if you drag four icons to the dock so you can use the otherwise useful right-click-menu-of-contents thing, only the ones that already look special will be "obvious". Mine right now on this Mac are: Applications, the root of my current Xcode project, Developer Applications, and my home directory. The home directory one, for reasons I can't explain, is a generic folder icon. The Applications one has an 'A' on the folder, which is the only way to distinguish between it and the Developer Applications, which has "Applications" as the mouse-over title. The icons are, naturally, slightly different on my Macs at home. Realistically, with the exception of the Applications folder, I have to mouse over them to know which is which.

The Dock should also be pinable (the functionality is there, just no already-enabled UI), and when pinned, adding icons should not result in shifts in position of existing icons. Why not separate it as "Minimized windows, non-docked apps, folders, docked apps, trashcan" for bottom/right orientation, or in that order reversed for top or left orientation? If the complaint is that those objects sound arbitrarily picked, why, yes, they are! But not any more than the default selection (how are minimized windows and folders alike again?)

6. Under no circumstances should the fact the desktop is full of icons mean that the icon representing the system disk should be overlaid with the icons of all newly created files. I'd actually like to see the desktop rethought anyway. My Amiga used to put icons on the desktop for files in the file system, but it wasn't treated as an actual directory, instead you had to select individual files and use the "Leave Out" menu command to get them to appear there. You didn't get the situation where every network application saw it as a great place to put all newly downloaded files. If you still have to implement the Desktop as a directory for some unknown reason, at least create a new home directory subdirectory called "Recently downloaded files", and encourage the developers of Firefox, Opera, etc, not to mention Safari, to put files in there by default.

7. Defaults in spacial mode should be an intelligent mix of the calculated (ie you open a folder nobody's ever opened before - take a look at how many files are in it, the current layout of the screen, etc, and come up with a moderately reasonable size, shape, and position) plus the All Windows Icons and Font settings. What's the point in having the "All Windows" option if it doesn't apply to windows by default? Once I customize a specific window (or someone else has - eg a folder on a .DMG, etc), then yeah, switch from "All Windows" but until then...

8. Finally, cheesy it might be, but a "Tip of the Day" thing that comes up when you start the system would be a great idea for an operating system that comes without a manual. I honestly never knew about the usefulness of folders in the dock until I read about it on the 'net. Nor the whole "Hovering over a folder while dragging and dropping and hitting shift to open it" thing. Mac OS X has many, many, features that are simply not obvious, but has no practical documentation. That needs to change.
 
No trees please...

No guys, really...trees belong to forests...that Windows thing is one of the most confusing and anti-intuitive features ever...you click on the left, something shows up on the right. At the same time, if you click on a folder its contents will show up on the right side, but not below the folder...in the end you don't even know where your files are anymore...so I vote for NO tree views in Finder...please.
 
Finder subset "smart folders"

So far I have never used a smart folder or if I did it was an accident. In my Mac travels about the system I have not come across "Smart Folders". I think they might be useful.

Does anyone have a use for "Smart Folders"?

Jim
 
BRLawyer said:
No guys, really...trees belong to forests...that Windows thing is one of the most confusing and anti-intuitive features ever...you click on the left, something shows up on the right. At the same time, if you click on a folder its contents will show up on the right side, but not below the folder...in the end you don't even know where your files are anymore...so I vote for NO tree views in Finder...please.
For browsers, they're absolutely perfect. They also undo the major mind-f--- that browser views do, which is undermine the ability of the user to understand the file system layout.

Ever since people started using the "One window, which just displays icons from the current directory" thing, it's been increasingly obvious that fewer people understand that their systems are laid out hierarchically.

The file system is a tree, and it's absolutely right to show it as a tree. It's the next best thing to spacial representation. If people are going to insist on the one-window "browser" paradigm, at least show the tree they're navigating.
 
peharri said:
For browsers, they're absolutely perfect. They also undo the major mind-f--- that browser views do, which is undermine the ability of the user to understand the file system layout.

Ever since people started using the "One window, which just displays icons from the current directory" thing, it's been increasingly obvious that fewer people understand that their systems are laid out hierarchically.

The file system is a tree, and it's absolutely right to show it as a tree. It's the next best thing to spacial representation. If people are going to insist on the one-window "browser" paradigm, at least show the tree they're navigating.

I'm not sure that the belief that people should understand how their filesystem works is not a hang-over for some of us ol' boys who used to do things the down and dirty way.

I guess (although I basically agree with your sentiments) it comes down to "should my mom have to understand how her filesystem is organized to use her computer?"... short answer,

no.
 
bugfaceuk said:
I'm not sure that the belief that people should understand how their filesystem works is not a hang-over for some of us ol' boys who used to do things the down and dirty way.

I guess (although I basically agree with your sentiments) it comes down to "should my mom have to understand how her filesystem is organized to use her computer?"... short answer,

no.
Well, to me, a better way of putting it is "Should your mom be actively mislead by your computer as to how her files are laid out, so she gets totally the wrong idea and is confused when she tries to do something "obvious"?"

That's why I'm a big proponent of spacial browsing (well, one of the reasons), and treeviews where spacial browsing is, for whatever reason, not the way to go. It's immediately obvious, the moment you see the tree, how your file system is laid out (at least, the principle of the thing), which isn't the case if clicking on "Macintosh HD" brings up a window containing a bunch of icons, that switch the view to more icons, that switch the view to more icons, etc, etc. The only rival to the treeview system is NeXT's Column View, and... urgh! That almost seems the worst of all worlds, everything looks like a path rather than a drill into.
 
prewwii said:
So far I have never used a smart folder or if I did it was an accident. In my Mac travels about the system I have not come across "Smart Folders". I think they might be useful.

Does anyone have a use for "Smart Folders"?

Jim

I've got a pair of Smart Folders on my desktop that let me quickly see every file I've edited/modified/created in the last 24 hours or last 7 days. It makes backups really simple if I don't have time to really backup my entire system. Its like a more complete "Recent Items" folder from the Menu Bar.
 
peharri said:
Well, to me, a better way of putting it is "Should your mom be actively mislead by your computer as to how her files are laid out, so she gets totally the wrong idea and is confused when she tries to do something "obvious"?"

That's why I'm a big proponent of spacial browsing (well, one of the reasons), and treeviews where spacial browsing is, for whatever reason, not the way to go. It's immediately obvious, the moment you see the tree, how your file system is laid out (at least, the principle of the thing), which isn't the case if clicking on "Macintosh HD" brings up a window containing a bunch of icons, that switch the view to more icons, that switch the view to more icons, etc, etc. The only rival to the treeview system is NeXT's Column View, and... urgh! That almost seems the worst of all worlds, everything looks like a path rather than a drill into.

What is the thing you think she gets confused about? I'm not sure what you are protecting people from trying to do?
 
bugfaceuk said:
What is the thing you think she gets confused about? I'm not sure what you are protecting people from trying to do?

Perhaps because it's not something useful for lay people to know...the "tree" thing is already treated by the column view and the directory tabs on top of the open/save windows...besides, normal users make use of the Home directory, with their own Docs and Apps folders...no need at all to dig into System/Mac OS directories.

The tree view in Windows Explorer should be loathed by all, as it's totally confusing and anti-intuitive for normal users. It goes against basic UI principles, as what you click on the left is shown on the right, and not on the same side. Even more strangely, if you have folders deep down, they are still shown on the left...in the end you are more lost than ever.
 
BRLawyer said:
Perhaps because it's not something useful for lay people to know...the "tree" thing is already treated by the column view and the directory tabs on top of the open/save windows...besides, normal users make use of the Home directory, with their own Docs and Apps folders...no need at all to dig into System/Mac OS directories.

The tree view in Windows Explorer should be loathed by all, as it's totally confusing and anti-intuitive for normal users. It goes against basic UI principles, as what you click on the left is shown on the right, and not on the same side. Even more strangely, if you have folders deep down, they are still shown on the left...in the end you are more lost than ever.

So that's my point, I think. It almost feels, with more and more data being stored on your hard-drives that a paradigm shift is required, and I'm not talking WinFS, but an entirely new presentation layer/metaphor.

But that's not going ot happen... so just add my vote to "NOT adding a tree on the left of finder"
 
BRLawyer said:
The tree view in Windows Explorer should be loathed by all, as it's totally confusing and anti-intuitive for normal users. It goes against basic UI principles, as what you click on the left is shown on the right, and not on the same side. Even more strangely, if you have folders deep down, they are still shown on the left...in the end you are more lost than ever.
Actually, the "where you are" on the left, and the "what's there" on the right metaphor is very common in UI design, and seems very natural to many of us.

It's very common for web pages - especially for applications that have a web UI - to have a navigation pane on the left and a detail pane on the right.

You also see it in encyclopaedias, dictionaries, map and street atlas programs....

Sites like CNN use the metaphor (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/02/gaza.cartoon/index.html), shopping sites, bookstores....
 
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