Mac Poor Video Editing Performance

[RedElectro]

Your original DVD footage (as Ive stated at the start) should be 720x480. Maybe Im missing something but you should be using that as your target resolution. Unless of course your not working with DVD footage?

Hi mBox,
I understand what you're saying, but I was told (in the first place) to rip the DVD using Mpeg-Stream clip at the ProRes settings. When I imported that video into FCP it recommended I changed the project settings to match the video clip I'd imported.

All I want to do is make a PAL 16:9 DVD with titles that don't look as though they've been done on an Commodore 64.

 

[mBox]

Hi mBox,
I understand what you're saying, but I was told (in the first place) to rip the DVD using Mpeg-Stream clip at the ProRes settings. When I imported that video into FCP it recommended I changed the project settings to match the video clip I'd imported.

All I want to do is make a PAL 16:9 DVD with titles that don't look as though they've been done on an Commodore 64.

sorry to sound harsh with last post. If your original DVD is PAL then res is 720x576 Non-Square Pixels. If you ingest footage into FCP you have to stay the course and not change the size unless you were planning on mixing it with 720/1080/? footage.
Your Photoshop doc settings should start like the attached image.
Since you acquired your footage 1024x576 Square Pixels (which I have no experience with), before applying any PSD layers maybe take the final sequence and subnest it into a PAL DV/DVCPRO 720x576 sequence (forgive me if Im off with the settings, Im at home no FCP here) and then apply your PSD layers and render at the new sequence, see what you come up with.
At the start of your posts I suggested you stay the course thus why I kept throwing the 720x576 numbers. I didn't realize you changed the pixel res using ProRes. To be honest I dont use ProRes, I've had to fix some ProRes files but never had the pleasure of working with it.
Now Im pretty sure the reason your original footage and rendered footage looks pixelated at text specially vector is that its been rescaled from Non-Square to Square pixels and size.
Video has tons of anomalies allready that it hides this problem.
Graphics with sharp edges cant get away from this and you should always work with graphics from a 1:1 pixel res if possible.
I teach FCP/After Effects/Maya at local college, this is the first thing I have to drill in my students head.
Dont start at wrong res unless your experienced with it.
I work with all types of resolution and very blessed that I havent given up after all the mixed media I've had to deal with

 

[RedElectro]

Thanks again mBox. I'm going to try exporting a selection of the footage at the resolution your suggested and try again.

In creating a new project with 1024 x 576 (and then PSD files with the same resolution) I have been able to create smooth looking titles. However, after motion effects these graphics (although not aliased) have horizontal lines running through them... If I can sort that, I'd be happy!

Going to try your suggestions now and will post the results back later.

Thanks again.

The "horizontal lines" where some kind of interlacing problem. I dropped the De-Interlace filter onto the clip and it went ok. (Just thought I'd add this info)

 

[mBox]

The "horizontal lines" where some kind of interlacing problem. I dropped the De-Interlace filter onto the clip and it went ok. (Just thought I'd add this info)

Now when you say it went away, is this after you burned a legal PAL DVD?
Reminder that even if it looks good on the computer, your not out of the woods when it gets down to the actual burning of the disc

 

[RedElectro]

Don't say that mBox... I haven't got to the point of burning a DVD yet!

One thing I'm getting confused over... when you say 720x576 Non-Square Pixels - when I change to these settings, my canvas is showing a 4:3 display and my video is cropped! The original footage is 16:9!

Cards on the table... do you think I'm better ripping the DVD again and starting from scratch with the right settings here?

I feel really bad about all this. I'm actually a Music Technology Teacher with an interest in Graphic Design. As you can tell, I don't know much about video editing and I'm starting to think I'm being too ambitious with this, and should go back to iMovie of Adobe Premiere.

 

[mBox]

Don't say that mBox... I haven't got to the point of burning a DVD yet!

One thing I'm getting confused over... when you say 720x576 Non-Square Pixels - when I change to these settings, my canvas is showing a 4:3 display and my video is cropped! The original footage is 16:9!

Cards on the table... do you think I'm better ripping the DVD again and starting from scratch with the right settings here?

I feel really bad about all this. I'm actually a Music Technology Teacher with an interest in Graphic Design. As you can tell, I don't know much about video editing and I'm starting to think I'm being too ambitious with this, and should go back to iMovie of Adobe Premiere.

Cool Im a musician that does this for a living
Sadly yes I cant tell you how itll turn out when you burn to DVD.
If you are working with 16:9 then your settings have to be pointing to Anamorphic.
Im at work now so I can fire up FCP and see what your actual settings are.
Did it take long to ingest the footage using MPEG StreamClip?
See I would have kept the footage as close as to what DVD is.
Which is MPEG2. In this case I would have converted as DV which is dead on the same res as DVD. I know it sounds confusing but give me a few minutes to fire up FCP and grab some screen shots.

 

[RedElectro]

I know it sounds confusing but give me a few minutes to fire up FCP and grab some screen shots.

Cool! Thank you!

 

[mBox]

PAL DVD Settings

If you do decide to start from scratch, here are some tips.
Now if your DVD is PAL and set to 16:9 then you want to start with:
MENU>Final Cut Pro>Audio/Video Settings...(see first attached image)
The second attached image is the actual breakdown.

Now of course I didnt explain the part about MPEG StreamClip.
See attached for settings. Im not sure how your ripping it (sorry I havent read the original post in days) so good luck with that part.

Now as far as working with graphics, as long as your staying within the legal size of your original, then your intended format (which is the same as original) and from what Im reading, then you should be close to fine.
Please understand that re-burning of DVD media is a gamble with final results.
See attached for Photoshop doc.
There's so much more deal with and too little time to explain.

Im currently working with mixed media which as both NTSC, HD and 4K media all mixed to output to HD

Give this a try if you want to start again

 

[RedElectro]

Ok!! I'm going to try again!

Thanks for all that info!! Step 1: Create new folder so I don't get mixed up!

I'll let you know how I get on!

 

[mBox]

Ok!! I'm going to try again!

Thanks for all that info!! Step 1: Create new folder so I don't get mixed up!

I'll let you know how I get on!

Just wondering, you took your DVD footage and ingested as ProRes which is a higher res format.
You didnt find any hiccups during the process?
If you didnt then I guess Apple got it right with that format

 

[RedElectro]

Just wondering, you took your DVD footage and ingested as ProRes which is a higher res format.
You didnt find any hiccups during the process?
If you didnt then I guess Apple got it right with that format

No, footage was fine and no rendering needed. Which was my original problem. Every edit required a new render. MartinX (quite rightly) spotted it was the original coding that was the problem and ripping with ProRes sorted that. Although it was at that 1028x576 resolution, which seems to have given me the headache with the PSD titles.

I can't remember how long it took to rip though. Don't think it was too long.

 

[mBox]

No, footage was fine and no rendering needed.

You will always get that problem if your working with a format that is not same as your FCP Sequence. Its the same even if the format is off lower quality. Scaling footage up or down will cause the render line to show up.
If you start with DV PAL 16:9 settings from MPEG StreamClip then ingest into FCP using the DVD/PAL Anamorphic settings then use the right Photoshop res docs then you should be close to fine.
I said close cause even high-res BluRay files tend to get buggered during the encode to BD so can you imagine DVD

 

[shark512]

I hope so!! This is driving me mad. Even the vector based artwork that's included comes out jaggy on export! I've got a new project with everything identically matched in FCP and Photoshop and it's still doing it. I've exported to AppleTV using the compressor settings and it's still doing it.

Here's the settings for my original project - these came from MPEG-StreamClip when I ripped the DVD.

Hi RedElectro, I've just gone through settings and seen the good recommendations that mBox has made. However in past projects I've also extracted footage from a dvd at the same res that you are using 1024x576 (which is PAL Wide Screen Square pixels) and succesfully mixed PSD (1024x576 pixels) based graphics with the footage. I've done this both in FCP as well as in Adobe After Effects.

Maybe I've read over it some of your earlier posts, but do the graphics look jagged/pixelated in the movie that you exported for the dvd (mpeg2 .m2v) from FCP or is it in the viewer in FCP? Could you check the viewer at 100% to see if you still find any artifacts?

How and in what format did you export your ProRes timeline to? Did you export the timeline as a quicktime movie and encode to an Mpeg2 formaat using compressor? Or did you 'send' the FCP timeline to compressor and then select the correct DVD formaat?

I hope I'm not confusing you any further with all of my questions, just trying to help ;-)

 

[mBox]

I would love to know if you've had great success with DVD to ProRes back to DVD shark512
My help has been basically to get the op back to the beginning with a little bit of what not to do the next time.
But in the real world most of us dont get to do "do-overs"
I would have tried to help with what the op had after ProRes but I didnt have a clue as to what steps got the op there.
My experience with any jaggies at the end of the burning DVD stage is mixed resolution between footage and external graphics.
however now reading the posts, maybe the op is seeing things in FCP Viewer/Canvas at "not" 100% thus giving it that jagged look?
I wish I was right there to see all this.

FYI just because your using Vectors dont mean itll be perfect.
Vectors look great on a Square pixel monitor e.g. MacBook Pro, iMac, MacPro, computer...
But the minute you mix it into the DVD Non-Square world...
Uggh

 

[RedElectro]

Ok, I was just about to start from scratch - based on mBox's recommendations, but when I returned to FCP it was in the middle of rendering the entire sequence again (due to something I'd done earlier, but wasn't sure what!!!) I was going to cancel this, but decided to wait as a last ditch attempt to avoid doing the whole thing again! When I pressed play - (wait for it) perfect quality titles on my ProRes footage!!!

Obviously - I saved!!

Now I've been back through all the settings to try and work out exactly what I'd done and as far as I can work out - the sequence had different settings from the project!! Possibly explaining why titles looked good in the viewer, but not in the canvas??!

I had changed the sequence settings to "custom" and typed in the resolution of the ripped DVD footage (1024x576) and set the render settings - Resolution and Frame rate to 100% - also Master Templates & Motion Quality to "Best"

It seems to have done the trick. Very high quality on footage and titles!! I dare say I'm going to have problems when it comes to exporting to DVD. But at the minute... I'm quite pleased.

Would it be foolish to presume that anything that works ok in FCP can be successfully sent to DVD via "Compressor" :/

Thanks for all your help guys. Sorry to be a pain!

 

[mBox]

Great to hear your moving forward without the pain of starting over
I trust Compressor with the right footage so hopefully your ProRes format comes thru at DVD settings.
How long is the final clip? Are you doing chapters?
Set Compressor to DVD Best at closest length of clip.

Good luck

 

[shark512]

Great to hear your moving forward without the pain of starting over
I trust Compressor with the right footage so hopefully your ProRes format comes thru at DVD settings.
How long is the final clip? Are you doing chapters?
Set Compressor to DVD Best at closest length of clip.

Good luck

I second that, great to hear that your titles look good now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that your settings in one of your earkier posts showed that graphics quality was set to 50%, but maybe that's only for motion files that reside on your timeline. Anyway, it should export fine using compressor.

I do I agree with mBox though, a DVD is not the most ideal source material to start from as it's already a compressed format (mpeg2). Granted ProRes is fairly good at limiting any degradation of the footage while editing. However, when you encode your timeline using the DVD best setting in compressor there is a distinct possibility that certain compression artifacts will show up. There is not much you can do about it, other than perhaps some smoothing/softening. At least you have an explanation should your client have any questions.

 

[shark512]

I would love to know if you've had great success with DVD to ProRes back to DVD shark512
My help has been basically to get the op back to the beginning with a little bit of what not to do the next time.
But in the real world most of us dont get to do "do-overs"
I would have tried to help with what the op had after ProRes but I didnt have a clue as to what steps got the op there.
My experience with any jaggies at the end of the burning DVD stage is mixed resolution between footage and external graphics.
however now reading the posts, maybe the op is seeing things in FCP Viewer/Canvas at "not" 100% thus giving it that jagged look?
I wish I was right there to see all this.

FYI just because your using Vectors dont mean itll be perfect.
Vectors look great on a Square pixel monitor e.g. MacBook Pro, iMac, MacPro, computer...
But the minute you mix it into the DVD Non-Square world...
Uggh

Hi mBox, I've had mixed results with the DVD > ProRes > DVD workflow. Some of the DVD's had excellent source material (proper exposure, low noise etc.) and were encoded very well. Others had lousy source footage and were poorly encoded, resulting in a slew of artifacts that were difficult to get rid of. But sometimes that's all the material that clients provided, it was up to me and my former colleagues to 'fix it in post'!! ;-)

 

[KeithPratt]

I would love to know if you've had great success with DVD to ProRes back to DVD shark512

What would be the issue? ProRes will not cause any.

The "horizontal lines" where some kind of interlacing problem. I dropped the De-Interlace filter onto the clip and it went ok. (Just thought I'd add this info)

Interlacing is not a "problem", it's fully intended. If this isn't destined for TV, however, progressive will look better. Instead of deinterlacing your titles, set the sequence field dominance to 'none' before you start.

When you make your MPEG-2 for DVD, it needs to be 720x576. And you'll be best sticking with that as your editing raster in future.

 

[mBox]

What would be the issue? ProRes will not cause ...

thats why I asked the op. With going from DVD format to ProRes then back to DVD, I'm curious to see if footage gets crunched.

 

[KeithPratt]

thats why I asked the op. With going from DVD format to ProRes then back to DVD, I'm curious to see if footage gets crunched.

It'd be the same as just compressing it to a second generation of MPEG-2 straight from the DVD.

 

[mBox]

It'd be the same as just compressing it to a second generation of MPEG-2 straight from the DVD.

Thanks Keith. I was just curious. Ive done a ton of DVD converted to DNxHD220 MXF but sent up to HD. Anything DVD>Avid>DVD we use OMF (old school) and never speak of it again

 

[RedElectro]

Just a quick update on this. I've exported the full movie and burned a copy using DVD Studio Pro and I'm very happy with the final quality playing on a 42" Plasma. If I was being picky, I'd say the quality was slightly lower than the original DVD, but not enough for anyone to really notice (I'm not 100% sure myself!).

Just a thought, if I did this kind of thing again... instead of ripping Mpeg footage from a DVD, if I asked the video company for copies of the actual footage, what would be the best format for me using FCP? I know this would depend on what equipment they're using, but I'm not sure what that was. It was a three camera shoot with broadcast quality Sony HD cameras, but I don't know what model or type.

Thanks for all your support on this. I'm sure it wouldn't have been half as good without your help.

 

[mBox]

... instead of ripping Mpeg footage from a DVD, if I asked the video company for copies of the actual footage, what would be the best format for me using FCP? I know this would depend on what equipment they're using, but I'm not sure what that was. It was a three camera shoot with broadcast quality Sony HD cameras, but I don't know what model or type...

It would help if you got the specs from the source. We use XDCAM (replaced by RED MX) and have had decent results with FCP. Get the camera specs and what type of clips they work with. I know some services shoot with XDCAM but forces it straight to ProRes.

Good to know your happy with your results